Ben Reilly: Scarlet Spider/Spider-Man Appreciation 2024.

[QUOTE=9AlphaOmega1;6688001]The Dark Web event happened what during the summer of 2023, so it has been nearly a half a year or more since they did anything of Chasm.

I read somewhere during NYCC 2023 they wanted see a Peter Parker without the responsibility, my thoughts was that not Kaine.

When Ben came back, I thought it was time for him to take over Spider-Man, we were not ready, IMO, back during the 90s. But thanks to the Spiderverse movies it can be done.

[/QUOTE]

It was nice that, for the most part, people were just kind of cool with Ben being Spidey again during the first few months of “Beyond.” Maybe because everyone knew it was a finite story. But it was a huge contrast from when he took over in the 90s and there was so much vitriol and backlash, mostly kicked up by WIZARD magazine.

[QUOTE=HypnoHustler;6690871]It was nice that, for the most part, people were just kind of cool with Ben being Spidey again during the first few months of “Beyond.” Maybe because everyone knew it was a finite story. But it was a huge contrast from when he took over in the 90s and there was so much vitriol and backlash, mostly kicked up by WIZARD magazine.[/QUOTE]

I was reading at the time and it was all so exciting to me. And thought Marvel was very bold in going with this change, I think Peter being revealed to be the clone was a big mistake. And Wizard almost convinced me that something I thought it was a good idea really wasn't. ALMOST

[QUOTE=Sr. Bungle;6691092]I was reading at the time and it was all so exciting to me. And thought Marvel was very bold in going with this change, I think Peter being revealed to be the clone was a big mistake. And Wizard almost convinced me that something I thought it was a good idea really wasn't. ALMOST[/QUOTE]

I didn’t even know most oldschool Spidey fans hated the Clone Saga until it was almost over and my Dad saw an article about the backlash in the NYTimes (I think it was… could’ve been a different newspaper). Then I saw WIZARD ragging on it too. But me and my 12 and 13 year old friends at school loved it. Would I have loved it as much if it was fresh to me now as a (almost) middle-aged adult? Probably not. But even aside from nostalgia, I think its good points are still greater than its flaws.

[QUOTE=HypnoHustler;6691185]I didn’t even know most oldschool Spidey fans hated the Clone Saga until it was almost over and my Dad saw an article about the backlash in the NYTimes (I think it was… could’ve been a different newspaper). Then I saw WIZARD ragging on it too. But me and my 12 and 13 year old friends at school loved it. Would I have loved it as much if it was fresh to me now as a (almost) middle-aged adult? Probably not. But even aside from nostalgia, I think its good points are still greater than its flaws.[/QUOTE]

I live in Argentina so I don't really know how was in the prime market for spider-man comics but I was really excited about the new direction, the new villains et al. I was 17 and, as I said, it seemed BOLD, in line with the musical and cultural shift happening in the 90s. I think the reveal that Peter was the clone enraged a lot of people.

[QUOTE=Sr. Bungle;6691260]I live in Argentina so I don't really know how was in the prime market for spider-man comics but I was really excited about the new direction, the new villains et al. I was 17 and, as I said, it seemed BOLD, in line with the musical and cultural shift happening in the 90s. I think the reveal that Peter was the clone enraged a lot of people.[/QUOTE]

Yeah...the Peter being a clone "reveal" was what really caused everything to crash and burn. There was no way long time readers were going to accept that.

[QUOTE=Knightsilver;6691336]Yeah...the Peter being a clone "reveal" was what really caused everything to crash and burn. There was no way long time readers were going to accept that.[/QUOTE]

Especially in retrospect, when the whole thing was just to invalidate the idea of a married Spider-Man/Peter Parker because the editors/execs at Marvel preferred him single and thought him being married at all, particularly to Mary Jane Watson, was a mistake. That said, Ben still deserved better than to be killed off like that at the end of the Clone Saga.

[QUOTE=Huntsman Spider;6691438]Especially in retrospect, [B]when the whole thing was just to invalidate the idea of a married Spider-Man/Peter Parker because the editors/execs at Marvel preferred him single and thought him being married at all, particularly to Mary Jane Watson, was a mistake.[/B] That said, Ben still deserved better than to be killed off like that at the end of the Clone Saga.[/QUOTE]

is that really true cause there are much easier ways to remove the marriage

[QUOTE=Jman27;6691523]is that really true cause there are much easier ways to remove the marriage[/QUOTE]I presume the idea was to have it both ways: Peter and Mary Jane were still happily married for those who wanted them to have a happy ending, and Ben was a single Spider-man for those who wanted to read single Spider-man.
It would respect the characters more than the current set up.

[QUOTE=Knightsilver;6691336]Yeah...the Peter being a clone "reveal" was what really caused everything to crash and burn. There was no way long time readers were going to accept that.[/QUOTE]

I’m curious how well the “replace the married guy with the single guy” idea might have gone of they’d just had Peter simply decide to retire when Ben shows up and offered the opportunity, without any circus of identity or stuff like that, or even if they just made it so it was still ambiguous who was the clone and who was the original and then did that?

I think both the core concept of “The Peter you’ve been reading isn’t the [I]real[/I] Peter” and the execution of “…And we’re going to have him accidentally harm his pregnant wife when he finds that out and freaks out” were poorly thought out and doomed. They stink of trying to “disprove” the idea of a married Spider-Man in a schlocky manner.

…But Ben [I]was[/I] a successful introduction to the franchise before that, and didn’t really seem to enjoy any increase in popularity or support after the “reveal.” It’s entirely possible that he could have either just taken over anyways, or had the ambiguity about who was who acknowledged and left unanswered, to get Ben the position Marvel was desperate for him to have.

Killing him off when fans refused to reject Peter was just wasteful to the max, regardless.

[QUOTE=godisawesome;6691934]I’m curious how well the “replace the married guy with the single guy” idea might have gone of they’d just had Peter simply decide to retire when Ben shows up and offered the opportunity, without any circus of identity or stuff like that, or even if they just made it so it was still ambiguous who was the clone and who was the original and then did that?

I think both the core concept of “The Peter you’ve been reading isn’t the [I]real[/I] Peter” and the execution of “…And we’re going to have him accidentally harm his pregnant wife when he finds that out and freaks out” were poorly thought out and doomed. They stink of trying to “disprove” the idea of a married Spider-Man in a schlocky manner.

…But Ben [I]was[/I] a successful introduction to the franchise before that, and didn’t really seem to enjoy any increase in popularity or support after the “reveal.” It’s entirely possible that he could have either just taken over anyways, or had the ambiguity about who was who acknowledged and left unanswered, to get Ben the position Marvel was desperate for him to have.

Killing him off when fans refused to reject Peter was just wasteful to the max, regardless.[/QUOTE]

One of the major improvements of "The 'Real' Clone Saga" miniseries, besides condensing all the important parts into six issues and jettisoning a lot of unnecessary baggage in retrospect, was having Peter and Ben dismiss both the Jackal and the true mastermind of the Clone Saga (Harry Osborn instead of Norman, who was still dead, even with a clone who reacted in quite understandable horror of what his son had become and died trying to make amends to both Peter and Ben) as raving lunatics whose words shouldn't be given any credence, which neatly undid said raving lunatics' attempts to pit Peter and Ben against each other.

[QUOTE=Huntsman Spider;6692142]One of the major improvements of "The 'Real' Clone Saga" miniseries, besides condensing all the important parts into six issues and jettisoning a lot of unnecessary baggage in retrospect, was having Peter and Ben dismiss both the Jackal and the true mastermind of the Clone Saga (Harry Osborn instead of Norman, who was still dead, even with a clone who reacted in quite understandable horror of what his son had become and died trying to make amends to both Peter and Ben) as raving lunatics whose words shouldn't be given any credence, which neatly undid said raving lunatics' attempts to pit Peter and Ben against each other.[/QUOTE]

One of the conceptual failings of the Saga was it's obsession with 'the real one.' When you can't just invalidate a living being that way.

I've always wished that they had established that no test could reveal the clone. There is no way to know which is 'the original' and instead focus on the fact that IT DOESN'T MATTER which one is 'real' just what they do with their lives now.

[QUOTE=ZeroBG82;6692210]One of the conceptual failings of the Saga was it's obsession with 'the real one.' When you can't just invalidate a living being that way.

I've always wished that they had established that no test could reveal the clone. There is no way to know which is 'the original' and instead focus on the fact that IT DOESN'T MATTER which one is 'real' just what they do with their lives now.[/QUOTE]

Pretty much this, though at least The "Real" Clone Saga fixed that failing.

I might be the only person who didn’t think much of the 2009 Clone Saga mini. I appreciated it and I know the two year 90s saga was bloated and overly convoluted. But on the other hand, a six issue miniseries doesn’t really allow much breathing room for things to develop without feeling rushed. For all its flaws, the 90s saga showed Peter and Ben develop a brotherly bond in a very natural and organic way. While a lot of the developments were plot-driven, their relationship was character driven. The miniseries was kind of a speed run through all that and jettisoned most of their bonding and other interesting elements from the saga (like Web of Carnage, and Lost Years) to just briefly cover some of the more established story beats to get from point A to point B. I did like how Ben and the baby lived of course, but didn’t think the conclusion with Harry was as strong as the original ‘Revelations’ climax. I also feel there was a bit of false advertising as it was supposed to be DeFalco and Mackie’s original vision. Instead it read like an effort to make the general outline of the 90s saga less controversial and convoluted, keeping original story beats, but getting rid of the stuff fans complained about like the Maximum Clonage mess or Ben dying. In the end, what was really substantively different about how things played out besides the climax with Harry?

Anyway, I still appreciated it for what it was and understand why many preferred it. Just not me. Just my 2 cents.

Short, but accurate story (imho ofc)
-Strerched too long past the tolerable length.
-The reveal that Peter was the clone .
These two are the main reasons why it didn't work in the end. Marvel almost had its cake and was on the verge of eating it. Instead the slipped and the cake was splattered all over their faces. At that point they had to kill Ben.
Nowadays, there's no need to kill Ben ir ruin him like they're doing.

[QUOTE=Sr. Bungle;6692452]Short, but accurate story (imho ofc)
-Strerched too long past the tolerable length.
-The reveal that Peter was the clone .
These two are the main reasons why it didn't work in the end. Marvel almost had its cake and was on the verge of eating it. Instead the slipped and the cake was splattered all over their faces. At that point they had to kill Ben.
Nowadays, there's no need to kill Ben ir ruin him like they're doing.[/QUOTE]

I still feel like the real Ben never came back.

It reminds me of this meme :(

[ATTACH=CONFIG]136877[/ATTACH]

I feel like there’s only been one or two moments that have reminded me of 90s Ben since he was brought back in 2016.