All purpose news and politics thread part VII: News & Politics Total Landscaping

[Zelena]

Hamas is awful. No argument. They seem intent on getting their own people killed and taking as many Israeli civilians as possible before they go.

I think we should expect more from a democracy than a terrorist group… Saying “it’s the others who make me do that” is kindergarten level and a bully argument… Netanyahu and his government are accountable for every civilian casualty, in my opinion.

[Catlady in training]

Certainly some. I didn’t want to come out, but hope we avoid trying to go back in.

Basically going back in would:-

Involve accepting worse terms than the ones we enjoyed before

Involve massive amounts of government time and energy

Re-open a sort of uncivil war between inners and outers

What would make all that worthwhile? What specific UK problem would rejoining solve? (Bear in mind economic performance since leaving has been at about same disappointing level as France, Germany, Italy, etc, so there no strong reason to believe EU membership really, really helps economically.)

I remember there being a lot of talks before the leave was completed about the Ireland/Northern Ireland border. Have there been any significant tensions since then? I know I've seen comments about the relations worsening, but it could have been mostly doomtalks? I admit I haven't followed this much. I was hoping this would be one conflict that remains in the past.

[zinderel]

I think we should expect more from a democracy than a terrorist group… Saying “it’s the others who make me do that” is kindergarten level and a bully argument… Netanyahu and his government are accountable for every civilian casualty, in my opinion.

Absolutely agree.

[Mister Mets]

Israel Orders Al Jazeera To Close Its Local Operation



Northern Gaza Is Now In 'Full-Blown Famine'



In Israel, anger at Netanyahu is getting louder




Now, I know that Al Jazeera is just a gossip rag that spreads Hamas propaganda, Cindy McCain is a leftist, and the UN and NPR and The Hague are all NOTORIOUSLY anti-Semitic, but can we acknowledge that Bibi is committing fascism and war crimes, yet…?

Hamas is awful. No argument. They seem intent on getting their own people killed and taking as many Israeli civilians as possible before they go.

Bibi is orders of magnitude worse. He seems intent on leading Israel into a global ‘holy war’. He leads a government with cutting edge military tech against a penned in, captive people, and daily pushes them closer to extinction. He leads a military that is committing documented war crimes: Attacking aid convoys. Mass graves found after the IDF left occupation of hospitals. Targeting civilians.

And now, he’s silencing the media.

At what point do we stop pretending that the horrors of Oct. 7th are an acceptable justification for the horrors that his government and his military have committed, since?

And do we think Biden will have the courage to call him out, when he responds to all of this?

I think most people here would disagree with the idea that Netanyahu is worse than Hamas, let alone orders of magnitude worse.

[JackDaw]

The implementation of border controls haven’t been immediate but have been taking place progressively…
https://www.theguardian.com/business...imports-brexit

So it’s more and more bureaucracy not less and less as promised by the Brexit…

Is UK more bureucratic than a typical EU country??

To go back in, there's only 2 democratic routes for the UK that I can see:-

1/ For one of the main political parties to put "Re-enter EU" in its General Election manifesto, and win an Election on that platform.
Or
2/ For Parliament to arrange another Referendum to put the question to the public "Should the EU re-enter the EU?"

Neither of those are going to happen in the near future.

[JackDaw]

I remember there being a lot of talks before the leave was completed about the Ireland/Northern Ireland border. Have there been any significant tensions since then? I know I've seen comments about the relations worsening, but it could have been mostly doomtalks? I admit I haven't followed this much. I was hoping this would be one conflict that remains in the past.

There's been no violent incidents between UK and Ireland since Brexit and I don't expect any. I've never seen any reputable paper or TV channel predict such a possibility. Have you?

[zinderel]

I think most people here would disagree with the idea that Netanyahu is worse than Hamas, let alone orders of magnitude worse.

Hamas: responsible for 1,163 deaths. Innocent Israeli people killed in a terrorist attack by monsters claiming to represent Palestine.

Israel under Netanyahu: responsible for the death of 32,552 in retaliation. Innocent Palestinian people killed - SO FAR…Netanyahu has promised more, no matter what anyone else has to say - by military actions sanctioned by the government in power. Starved into a famine. Corralled into overcrowded ghettos.

That is orders of magnitude worse than Hamas. Demonstrably.

Hamas is monstrous because they are terrorists whose terrorist actions against innocent civilian targets only end up getting more of their own people killed every time they do a terrorism.

Netanyahu is worse, because he is using the power of his government - and their cutting edge military tech - to eradicate a people before our eyes, and he’s counting on institutionalized white guilt make people look the other way while he keeps pushing.

Maybe we should print a t-shirt with those death tolls, so that you can understand why critics of Israel’s policies towards Palestine say that Israel is worse, in this equation. But given your repeated denial of - when you aren’t defending - the bigotry and racism and homophobia and transphobia and misogyny and outright Nazi speech and symbols used by your party, I don’t expect that you’d care, even then.

[Mister Mets]

I think we should expect more from a democracy than a terrorist group… Saying “it’s the others who make me do that” is kindergarten level and a bully argument… Netanyahu and his government are accountable for every civilian casualty, in my opinion.

We should expect more from democracies, but we should also not reward terror groups and their allies for using civilians as human shields.

Hamas is also the government in Gaza. They won an election. The people there are in their care. Hamas seems to be the worst of both worlds, using the tactics of terrorists while sidestepping their responsibility as the ruling party.

There's a problem in world politics with the Axis of Assholes, the countries that are willing to violate laws and lie shamelessly because they do not abide by liberal democracy. It forces the rest of the world to have one hand tied behind its back in conflicts.

Is UK more bureucratic than a typical EU country??

To go back in, there's only 2 democratic routes for the UK that I can see:-

1/ For one of the main political parties to put "Re-enter EU" in its General Election manifesto, and win an Election on that platform.
Or
2/ For Parliament to arrange another Referendum to put the question to the public "Should the EU re-enter the EU?"

Neither of those are going to happen in the near future.

Wouldn't this be an opening for a new party?

Or maybe the Liberal Democrats (two times I'm using that phrase in the same post, but in different contexts.)

[Tami]

Just How Dangerous Is Europe’s Rising Far Right? : Anti-immigration parties with fascist roots — and an uncertain commitment to democracy — are now mainstream.

Jordan Bardella, 28, is the new face of the far right in France. Measured, clean-cut and raised in the hardscrabble northern suburbs of Paris, he laces his speeches with references to Victor Hugo and believes that “no country succeeds by denying or being ashamed of itself.”

That phrase, at a recent rally in the eastern town of Montbéliard, brought a chorus of “Jordan! Jordan!” from a crowd that had lined up for hours to see him. Cries of “Patrie” — homeland — filled the hall. Bardellamania is in the air.

Mr. Bardella, the son of Italian immigrants and a college dropout who joined the National Front party (now National Rally) at 16, is the protégé of Marine Le Pen, the perennial hard-right French presidential candidate. Moderate in tone if not content, he is also the personification of the normalization — or banalization — of a party once seen as a quasi-fascist threat to the Republic.

Across Europe, the far right is becoming the right, absent any compelling message from traditional conservative parties. If “far” suggests outlier, it has become a misnomer. Not only have the parties of an anti-immigrant right surged, they have seen the barriers that once kept them out crumble as they are absorbed into the arc of Western democracies.

In Italy, Prime Minister Giorgia Meloni, who has political roots in a neo-fascist party, now leads Italy’s most right-wing government since Mussolini. In Sweden, the center-right government depends on the fast-growing Sweden Democrats, another party with neo-Nazi origins, for its parliamentary majority. In the Netherlands, Geert Wilders, who has called Moroccan immigrants “scum,” won national elections in November at the head of his Party for Freedom, and center-right parties there have agreed to negotiate with him to form a governing coalition.

[Jack Dracula]

We should expect more from democracies, but we should also not reward terror groups and their allies for using civilians as human shields.

Hamas is also the government in Gaza. They won an election. The people there are in their care. Hamas seems to be the worst of both worlds, using the tactics of terrorists while sidestepping their responsibility as the ruling party.

There's a problem in world politics with the Axis of Assholes, the countries that are willing to violate laws and lie shamelessly because they do not abide by liberal democracy. It forces the rest of the world to have one hand tied behind its back in conflicts.

Wouldn't this be an opening for a new party?

Or maybe the Liberal Democrats (two times I'm using that phrase in the same post, but in different contexts.)

The legitimate argument that Hamas winning the election doesn’t indicate the Palestinian people actually support their actions has been made before. When the lunatics who have all the guns run for office they tend to win. Can we stop using that as an excuse?

[JackDaw]

Wouldn't this be an opening for a new party?

Or maybe the Liberal Democrats (two times I'm using that phrase in the same post, but in different contexts.)

I don’t think there’s a practical route that could see a new party created from scratch on this specific issue (rejoining the EU) that could see them win enough seats to win a General Election.

The Liberal Democrats on the other hand might well decide to include it in their election manifesto, and it might well win them votes. But enough to beat Labour? That I can’t see.

Given present polling results it’s hard to see past Labour getting an outright majority in the next Parliament. But imagine Labour make a few mistakes, and no one party wins an outright majority.

Then Labour might need to try to form a coalition government with the Liberal Democrats and the SNP….that coalition would have 2 partners (SNP and Lib Dem’s) definitely wanting to rejoin, and the third (Labour) sympathetic to that.

That would prove unpredictable, though I expect Labour would still resist going back in, because it would prove massively unpopular with the large majority of its own supporters in the Midlands and Northern England.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Hamas: responsible for 1,163 deaths. Innocent Israeli people killed in a terrorist attack by monsters claiming to represent Palestine.

Israel under Netanyahu: responsible for the death of 32,552 in retaliation. Innocent Palestinian people killed - SO FAR…Netanyahu has promised more, no matter what anyone else has to say - by military actions sanctioned by the government in power. Starved into a famine. Corralled into overcrowded ghettos.

That is orders of magnitude worse than Hamas. Demonstrably.

Hamas is monstrous because they are terrorists whose terrorist actions against innocent civilian targets only end up getting more of their own people killed every time they do a terrorism.

Netanyahu is worse, because he is using the power of his government - and their cutting edge military tech - to eradicate a people before our eyes, and he’s counting on institutionalized white guilt make people look the other way while he keeps pushing.

Maybe we should print a t-shirt with those death tolls, so that you can understand why critics of Israel’s policies towards Palestine say that Israel is worse, in this equation. But given your repeated denial of - when you aren’t defending - the bigotry and racism and homophobia and transphobia and misogyny and outright Nazi speech and symbols used by your party, I don’t expect that you’d care, even then.

Yeah, this.

Ben N shouldn't get a pass simply because he slaughters his enemies in a more polite way than Hamas. Especially when his actions have led to the deaths of far more people.

Had he any honor, he would resign. But right now, waging this war is all that keeps him in power and staves off his disgrace.

[babyblob]

I have been pretty quiet on the subject of the war on Gaza (To be honest I have been pretty quiet on a lot of subjects as of late)

I in no way support Hamas. But damn I have to say I in no way support Israel right now. Their actions and the actions of Ben N in Gaza are criminal. it has gone beyond self defense to outright murder. And I hate that every time someone even questions how Israel is handling the way they are painted as racist and Antisemitic Hamas backers.

I dont see how the USA can claim to be against the murder of civilians in Gaza and against the way Israel is handling the war on one hand while on the other passing bills that send money and weapons to Israel to keep doing what they are doing.

The whole situation is tragic and makes me sick.

[Gray Lensman]

The legitimate argument that Hamas winning the election doesn’t indicate the Palestinian people actually support their actions has been made before. When the lunatics who have all the guns run for office they tend to win. Can we stop using that as an excuse?

Plus how much has changed in the nearly two decades since that last election?

Hamas is outright terrible, but Bibi seems to have taken it as a challenge that he can be worse.

[The Cool Thatguy]

Plus how much has changed in the nearly two decades since that last election?

Hamas is outright terrible, but Bibi seems to have taken it as a challenge that he can be worse.

Lets not forget that Ben N helped prop up Hamas with suitcases of money.

Maybe if he let them fail, we might not have had October 7