Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2024

[whitecrown]

I have to play devil’s advocate here. Emma (1) had a fling with Namor, (2) repeatedly pressed Scott to keep “no secrets,” certainly more than Jean ever did (Jean wouldn't even read his mind when he pushed her to in order to “know” his feelings in New X-Men; instead, she pushed him to share his feelings), (3) tried reading his mind against his will (Jean actually trained him to create his own “psychic little black box,” which even Emma couldn't penetrate), (4) mind-controlled teenage Scott and tried rewriting his personality, which teen Jean stopped her from doing, and, quite frankly, the list goes on.

What did Jean do? Mostly get kissed by Logan, for which she blasted him off his feet and on his ass the first time around. Later, she was caught off guard by him while he was dying, and she didn't have the heart to hurt or push him away. And after that, another sneaky kiss by Logan until New X-Men, when she purportedly kissed him, even though she was talking about missing her husband. Frankly, because of the positioning of their bodies, I always interpreted that scene as Logan, again, having spun her around to kiss her, which she didn't fight off. But even if she had kissed him, so what? At least she had been honest with Scott about her ambiguous feelings for Logan.

Scott got over Jean pretty quickly when he thought her dead the first go around and got with Colleen. Years later, he lied to Jean for months about Madelyne, after which he pursued Jean when they thought Madelyne was dead, and Jean gave in, only for him to inculcate Jean in his guilt when they learned Madelyne was alive, which is what turned Jean against Madelyne for a brief period. (Jean was Madelyne’s FIRST advocate, after all, and remained so longer than anyone else.) Years after that—after their marriage—he allowed himself to be licked by Betsy/Kwannon, never pushing her away or at least saying something. And, of course, he trusted the facilitator of his wife’s abuse and trauma before trusting literally any of his other friends, like Ororo or Hank, and then engaged in a hot and heavy psychic affair with her, all the while the two fetishisized one of the most traumatic periods in Jean’s life.

Frankly, I was thrilled Jean FINALLY consummated her passion for and best-frienship with Logan during the Krakoan era, and that Scott went along with it even though he hated it, like he told Emma during the penultimate Hellfire Gala, which is also puzzling, considering the fact it was implied they were messing around, too. Anyway, Scott supporting Jean’s sexual freedom with a man who adores and reveres her showed me he was a REAL man and knew his wife deserved to enjoy the privileges he not only took for granted without her consent but that she also afforded him when she ascended to do the work she was always meant to do as White Phoenix. She did let him have his cake and eat it too, after all. “Ha. Live. Live, Scott. Live.”

For the longest time, I wanted Jean as far away from him as possible, because I felt he not only disrespected her in the most profound ways but also dragged her down. Now? After Krakoa? I feel they have a shot. They're even. They respect and, of course, never stopped loving each other. It reminds me of the story Duggan shared about his parents, who divorced and remained separated for 17 years before remarrying and staying together until the end. Those kinds of messy, rocky love stories are real. Ultimately, they have the opportunity to be one of the realest, most inspiring, beautiful pairings, as they've always been at their best. But we have to stop blaming either of them to boost or exonerate the other. Maybe we should be as forgiving of them as they are of each other. Food for thought.

Thank you for this beautiful defense of Jean. I haven't read the Krakoa era so I don't have the same closure you do. I still cannot forgive Scott for his sins against Jean and frankly, I think some things are unforgivable. It's not just one thing but multiple as you've eloquently listed out. With comic book continuity, where time never passes and writers often ignore what other writers put down on the page before them, it's easy to move along and ignore prior history. But if Jean and Scott were real people and he did all these things to her, I'd warn her to go as far away from him as possible. He's bad news, all the way back to when he couldn't mourn her alleged death and was already looking at Colleen Wing. It took Storm to call him out and she truly showed more affection for Jean than Scott ever did. Similarly, how quickly he moved on after Jean's real death with Lee Forrester was also disturbing, enough that fans were shocked and horrified and poured into the letter pages to display their contempt for this. It's also implied that Scott and Lee were intimate on the island when they were stranded and alone together. I found that odd too since Scott is relatively shy and it's implied that he and Jean only consummated their love during TDPS (UXM #132). Classic X-Men backstories seemed to suggest that Jean's date with Scott on Christmas (UXM #98) was the night they were first going to consummate their relationship. So the fact that they only were intimate once after years of a relationship, but right after her death, Scott's already shacking up with Lee rubbed me the wrong way and others as well.

Perhaps the Krakoan era redeems him. I'm not sure. I now see Logan as not only being a better fit for her overall personality but also one who has never wronged her like Scott has repeatedly. Lorna fans have realized how toxic Alex was to Lorna since she's always wronged by him no matter the era or writer. I'm seeing the same with Jean and Scott and both women should be kept safe from problematic Summers brothers. Someone should go back in time and tell Stan or Roy Thomas that Jean should be paired with Warren because she'll be spared so much harm in the long run. Not to mention, being fridged for 14 years, which Joe Q literally said was done to develop Cyclops so he could hook up with that fake blonde hussy. MJ got the same treatment with OMD so it's not even exclusive to Jean.

Also being linked to Wolverine has helped Jean in the long run. Had Joe Q not refused to let Jean come back, she could have been on the New Avengers with Wolverine, Spider-Man, Captain America, Iron Man, Spider-Woman, etc. In the movies she got more screentime because she was Wolverine's love interest and the trilogy's epic love story. She was able to appear in more films than just the trilogy because of her role in The Wolverine. Now the Insomniac video game will give Jean a new huge platform and co-star status as the second most important X-Man after Wolverine. The Spider-Man Insomniac games have outsold all the Batman Arkhan games, despite the Spider-Man games being exclusive to Playstation so imagine how the Wolverine game will sell. Wolverine will always trump any other love interest because he's the second most popular Marvel character of all time after Spider-Man. In the Wolverine thread, it's even mentioned that his solo book outsells Batman and is second to only Spider-Man's solo, which is why Jean will always benefit from having her name linked to his, which is already the case in popular culture where people see Jean as Wolverine's girlfriend or ill-fated love. Even as far back as the late 90s, Marvel confirmed that having covers where Jean and Wolverine kiss always boosted sales so it shows what's really popular with the masses.

Renew Your Vows was a wonderful way to see both of Marvel's two most popular characters in happy marriages and equal partnerships. Would like to see more Jean/Logan children besides just adorable Kate. Jean is already in the running for being Marvel's most popular female character (I'd say Storm and Wanda are the other two most likely contenders) and having her name next to the second most popular Marvel character of all time (and presumably third or fourth most popular comic book hero) just cements that.

[nx01a]

Agree with everything you wrote, whitecrown, but had to get this off my chest in Scott’s thread and feel it’s relevant to this thread, too:



I have to play devil’s advocate here. Emma (1) had a fling with Namor, (2) repeatedly pressed Scott to keep “no secrets,” certainly more than Jean ever did (Jean wouldn't even read his mind when he pushed her to in order to “know” his feelings in New X-Men; instead, she pushed him to share his feelings), (3) tried reading his mind against his will (Jean actually trained him to create his own “psychic little black box,” which even Emma couldn't penetrate), (4) mind-controlled teenage Scott and tried rewriting his personality, which teen Jean stopped her from doing, and, quite frankly, the list goes on.

What did Jean do? Mostly get kissed by Logan, for which she blasted him off his feet and on his ass the first time around. Later, she was caught off guard by him while he was dying, and she didn't have the heart to hurt or push him away. And after that, another sneaky kiss by Logan until New X-Men, when she purportedly kissed him, even though she was talking about missing her husband. Frankly, because of the positioning of their bodies, I always interpreted that scene as Logan, again, having spun her around to kiss her, which she didn't fight off. But even if she had kissed him, so what? At least she had been honest with Scott about her ambiguous feelings for Logan.

Scott got over Jean pretty quickly when he thought her dead the first go around and got with Colleen. Years later, he lied to Jean for months about Madelyne, after which he pursued Jean when they thought Madelyne was dead, and Jean gave in, only for him to inculcate Jean in his guilt when they learned Madelyne was alive, which is what turned Jean against Madelyne for a brief period. (Jean was Madelyne’s FIRST advocate, after all, and remained so longer than anyone else.) Years after that—after their marriage—he allowed himself to be licked by Betsy/Kwannon, never pushing her away or at least saying something. And, of course, he trusted the facilitator of his wife’s abuse and trauma before trusting literally any of his other friends, like Ororo or Hank, and then engaged in a hot and heavy psychic affair with her, all the while the two fetishisized one of the most traumatic periods in Jean’s life.

Frankly, I was thrilled Jean FINALLY consummated her passion for and best-frienship with Logan during the Krakoan era, and that Scott went along with it even though he hated it, like he told Emma during the penultimate Hellfire Gala, which is also puzzling, considering the fact it was implied they were messing around, too. Anyway, Scott supporting Jean’s sexual freedom with a man who adores and reveres her showed me he was a REAL man and knew his wife deserved to enjoy the privileges he not only took for granted without her consent but that she also afforded him when she ascended to do the work she was always meant to do as White Phoenix. She did let him have his cake and eat it too, after all. “Ha. Live. Live, Scott. Live.”

For the longest time, I wanted Jean as far away from him as possible, because I felt he not only disrespected her in the most profound ways but also dragged her down. Now? After Krakoa? I feel they have a shot. They're even. They respect and, of course, never stopped loving each other. It reminds me of the story Duggan shared about his parents, who divorced and remained separated for 17 years before remarrying and staying together until the end. Those kinds of messy, rocky love stories are real. Ultimately, they have the opportunity to be one of the realest, most inspiring, beautiful pairings, as they've always been at their best. But we have to stop blaming either of them to boost or exonerate the other. Maybe we should be as forgiving of them as they are of each other. Food for thought.

Thanks for this excellent defense of both Scott and Jean... and even Logan a bit there.

[Exodus]

Exactly. Gillen is treating Jean like a true primal force, as Claremont always intended. She transcends the bounds of spacetime and human logic altogether. She is contradictory, multitudinous, and infinitely, perpetually paradoxical. Gillen is making us take her in one mortal breath at a time. He made the strategic move to slow down everything around and concerning her. His treatment of her has been like that of a photographer or filmmaker pointing their instrument at the rising sun or orbiting planets, letting their subjects show us how incomprehensibly massive, majestic, and mysterious they are.

I honestly have no words.

I find it very appropriate that Gillen will be the one who brings Hope storyline with he Phoenix Force full circle. Finally, revealing the relationship between Hope, Jean, and the Phoenix. Would make the most sense to me if Hope was created by the Phoenix Force to kick-start the mutant genome after Wanda's No More Mutant-spell using Jean as a loose template.

[Havok83]

I really hope her origin story is that she was created by the PF and Gillen doesnt pull an X-men Blue Origins and reveal that Hope is Jean reincarnated

[Mercury]

whitecrown, I’ll respond later. Too tired. 😭

Just wanted to say this: I think we’ll learn Enigma (or Sinister) used Jean’s genes to create Hope, which would be perfect.

[whitecrown]

Beau proving he understands that the X-Men only need Jean and Storm and everyone else is just there.
https://twitter.com/BeauDemayo/statu...MPAs5NcHA&s=19

[Havok83]

I watched and loved Jean in the episode, only to come online nad read people talk about her death. Huh? Was I the only one that did not get that from this episode and expect to see her among the living next week?

[Portsian]

I think it was intentionally left vague as to whether she survived or not.

[Havok83]

I think it was intentionally left vague as to whether she survived or not.

I guess for me nothing about it felt vague. She did not appear to die at all to me and for such a major character, you dont leave that vague. Look at Gambit vs Magneto during the Genosha episode. One was vague and one wasnt and it wa the latter whom was fine. I felt if the intention was to kill her off, it would have been a bigger moment but it wasnt played up as one

[Konja7]

I guess for me nothing about it felt vague. She did not appear to die at all to me and for such a major character, you dont leave that vague. Look at Gambit vs Magneto during the Genosha episode. One was vague and one wasnt and it wa the latter whom was fine. I felt if the intention was to kill her off, it would have been a bigger moment but it wasnt played up as one

To be fair, Maddie died in a similar "vague" way.

Now, I don't think the intention is to kill her off from the story, but I think Jean has really died. She just likely will come back.

[Apechei]

I don't want Sinister/Enigma playing any role in Hope's existence lol I think that he is trying to pull an Xavier with little Moira... Cease the existence from the get go, but then maybe Jean (now being above time and space) will see this and intervene in some way.

Also, I got a theory after reading X-men Forever: Marvel is undoing the Jean and the Phoenix Force being separate entities

Jean has been resurrected, is coherent and sees all. At the same time, she is just not "whole" yet. The Phoenix force was also dying and got brought back (through the resurrection of Jean, reinforcing Jean = Phoenix and vice versa), but given the fear of being ended, it came back as the force (separate entity) and is running to find a way to protect itself. My feeling is that this is the process that Marvel is developing to remove the current status of the two being separate entities, by having the Hope-led rebirth of the Phoenix force be the final step in bringing the true Jean/Phoenix back as One, making Jean Grey complete, as originally intended. Therefore, Jean Grey will no longer be characterized as the "perfect host" because she IS the Phoenix.

With the upcoming solo, Tom saying Jean was always Phoenix, Marvel stats listing, X-men97, it seems like this development is crucial to establish her new role/identity moving forward. But watch me be wrong lol just my thoughts after everything going on with Jean right now.

[Havok83]

To be fair, Maddie died in a similar "vague" way.

Now, I don't think the intention is to kill her off from the story, but I think Jean has really died. She just likely will come back.

Fair enough but at that point I didnt consider Maddie a major character. She felt more like a dangling plot thread that I didnt feel would leave this season alive anyway

[Jackraow21]

Renew Your Vows was a wonderful way to see both of Marvel's two most popular characters in happy marriages and equal partnerships. Would like to see more Jean/Logan children besides just adorable Kate. Jean is already in the running for being Marvel's most popular female character (I'd say Storm and Wanda are the other two most likely contenders) and having her name next to the second most popular Marvel character of all time (and presumably third or fourth most popular comic book hero) just cements that.

You know what, I forgot about this universe. I actually did love that. Wonder what Kate's powers would've ended up being?

[starduck]

I watched and loved Jean in the episode, only to come online nad read people talk about her death. Huh? Was I the only one that did not get that from this episode and expect to see her among the living next week?

I don't think she died either, just was in a near death situation like most of the gold team. I do wonder who'll save her, the Phoenix or Maddie

[CaptainUniverse]

You know what, I forgot about this universe. I actually did love that. Wonder what Kate's powers would've ended up being?

She was a precog and telepath like her Mother and also had the ability to create psychic light projections that could reveal lost memories, blind the minds of others as well as be projected as concussive blasts.