Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[Thievery]

It wasn't very good and especially disappointing for Storm fans. Wouldn't recommend it.

She did the back-up stories in Classic X-Men #25, 27–28, 30–34, 38–39, 44. Actually looking at the ones she did, they weren't all that bad. She wrote the issue where Storm has to pick between Wolverine or Colossus on who to save and she picks Colossus. Wolverine seems to show up the most in her stories. She also did one about Rogue's life when she first joined the Brotherhood.

The stories about Storm choosing between Wolverine and Colossus and the Rogue story sound interesting. If I can spare the cash I might get them some day.

One reason that I hate the slow role out of the new line of X-Men comics is that I need to know which ones I need to save my money for. I want to have some money on hand to spend on a comic if Archangel is a cast member. On the other hand if it turns out that Warren won't be in any of the comics than I may have missed a chance to budget my money for something else.

Then again, if I don't like what happens to Archangel, I may just leave comics behind and save some money. No reason to get bent out of shape because my favorite isn't around or isn't used in a way that I prefer when I can always just stop reading comics instead.

[K7P5V]

Lol! Nocenti said in an interview that the old lady was only inspired by Angel because he couldn't talk. She said that if the lady could to talk to Warren she would realize that he is no Angel and probably wouldn't care for him very much. Or something along those lines.

Oops! I meant no offense. The artwork's so captivating, though...

[Hakka84]

Normally I would take having a character being the featured star of an anniversary issue to be a good sign for the character going forward. It sure doesn't feel as if this comic is going to do much considering interviews about it.
Or maybe I've just grown cynical because of the way that Archangel has been treated ever since Uncanny Disassembled.

Mee too.
Whitecrown hadn't rejoined us when we discussed about this Giant-Size, so I'll repeat for them:
I was so pumped for this issue, not only because "yay, a Warren has been spotted!!" but because I adore the story Chiaroscuro. But the interview, and especially the answer to my own question, got me very worried about what we will see.

Only two more days until Giant-Size. I'm...a bit nervous, lol.

Unless she really threats him bad (and even that, we can pretend the story never happened)... I'm of the mind that "a Warren is better than no Warren at all".

Yes. And as I posted above, she doesn't exactly seem like a fan of the character. But, you never know. Sometimes a writer who doesn't like a character does a better job writing said character than a fan does.

Agree. When you like a character you tend to overdo (Kitty is a prime example, but she's not the only one). When you are not won over a character, but you're a professional (and Nocenti a professional she is), I think you are more likely to treat the character as a full human, with good and bad sides, flaws and all. A more rounded character.
...
Or yes, you do a shitty job about the character. There's that.
We'll see.

It seems as though Angel had a fairly good role in this comic. Would you say that it is worth reading?

No.
Save yourself! D:

I think I shared all the pages when he has any speaking time (2?3?). You can find them in the last pages of the thread.
The rest is one (1) page in which he's seen in the background flying and enjoying some down time with everyone.
That's it. That's all there is about Warren across the two series.

[center]The artwork's so captivating, though...

Chiaroscuro is perfect. You can't change my mind.
I just forgot Nocenti's words about it (or, at least, I decided that she meant "if Josie heard Warren speak she would understand she's human, and no truly angel, so he would change in her eyes". Which I think was what Nocenti meant, more than an jab to Warren's character)
And the art... I think the art gives much to the story. I think that, say, under X-Factor's pen of the time, the story would loose something.

[Thievery]

[center]Oops! I meant no offense. The artwork's so captivating, though...

Uh, yeah, no offense taken guy. I was just trying to point out what Nocenti was trying to convey in the comic.
Poor Hakka84 was a little disappointed when she learned out what Chiaroscuro was really about.
Art does fit the story, though.

[Thievery]

Agree. When you like a character you tend to overdo (Kitty is a prime example, but she's not the only one). When you are not won over a character, but you're a professional (and Nocenti a professional she is), I think you are more likely to treat the character as a full human, with good and bad sides, flaws and all. A more rounded character.
...
Or yes, you do a shitty job about the character. There's that.
We'll see.




No.
Save yourself! D:

I think I shared all the pages when he has any speaking time (2?3?). You can find them in the last pages of the thread.
The rest is one (1) page in which he's seen in the background flying and enjoying some down time with everyone.
That's it. That's all there is about Warren across the two series.


Chiaroscuro is perfect. You can't change my mind.
I just forgot Nocenti's words about it (or, at least, I decided that she meant "if Josie heard Warren speak she would understand she's human, and no truly angel, so he would change in her eyes". Which I think was what Nocenti meant, more than an jab to Warren's character)
And the art... I think the art gives much to the story. I think that, say, under X-Factor's pen of the time, the story would loose something.

Thanks for the tip on X-Men: Forever. No need to spend some money there.

Agree with you that it can get annoying when a character can be written as to perfect. And I think that Kitty Pryde is the perfect example of how a fan of a character can make a character unlikable because of how perfect they are. Cyclops frequently gets the same treatment, and some occasions he is crapped on. Usually though, he is made to look to good, like the time that Magneto bowed down to him, though I guess that you can say that was a negative development. It still kind of upsets me that Cyclops won a spot on Krakoa X-Men team by telling everyone else that he was the X-Men during the first election.

[whitecrown]

Mee too.
Whitecrown hadn't rejoined us when we discussed about this Giant-Size, so I'll repeat for them:
I was so pumped for this issue, not only because "yay, a Warren has been spotted!!" but because I adore the story Chiaroscuro. But the interview, and especially the answer to my own question, got me very worried about what we will see.


Unless she really threats him bad (and even that, we can pretend the story never happened)... I'm of the mind that "a Warren is better than no Warren at all".


Agree. When you like a character you tend to overdo (Kitty is a prime example, but she's not the only one). When you are not won over a character, but you're a professional (and Nocenti a professional she is), I think you are more likely to treat the character as a full human, with good and bad sides, flaws and all. A more rounded character.
...
Or yes, you do a shitty job about the character. There's that.
We'll see.

Chiaroscuro is perfect. You can't change my mind.
I just forgot Nocenti's words about it (or, at least, I decided that she meant "if Josie heard Warren speak she would understand she's human, and no truly angel, so he would change in her eyes". Which I think was what Nocenti meant, more than an jab to Warren's character)
And the art... I think the art gives much to the story. I think that, say, under X-Factor's pen of the time, the story would loose something.

At least Warren is getting the spotlight for once, so I'm psyched about that. If it lasts any longer than the one issue, that's what I'm worried about. And Nocenti tended to overlap with Claremont on a lot of things so if she similarly views Warren's love interests as being way better than him, I'm not exactly thrilled.

I don't think there's any real pattern to whether or not a character being a writer's favorite means they'll be written well or not. Especially not the opposite that not liking a character, makes you objective about them even as a professional. Claremont is a professional but it's clear Warren was never a favorite of his from how often he was sidelined. His treatment in X-Men Forever and X-Men: The End further showcase that. Byrne was a professional but he still made an effort to downplay Nightcrawler, Cockrum's favorite, and give Wolverine more presence since Wolverine was his favorite.

I also believe the interpretation is that Josie saw Warren as an angel and he would only change in her eyes if she realized he was really a mortal, whether human or mutant.

[whitecrown]

Thanks for the tip on X-Men: Forever. No need to spend some money there.

Agree with you that it can get annoying when a character can be written as to perfect. And I think that Kitty Pryde is the perfect example of how a fan of a character can make a character unlikable because of how perfect they are. Cyclops frequently gets the same treatment, and some occasions he is crapped on. Usually though, he is made to look to good, like the time that Magneto bowed down to him, though I guess that you can say that was a negative development. It still kind of upsets me that Cyclops won a spot on Krakoa X-Men team by telling everyone else that he was the X-Men during the first election.

Yeah, Warren is basically a non-presence in X-Men Forever. Not worth getting for him.

Cyclops is the prime example of a character who was allowed to dominate the X-Books for the 2000s because writers used him as a self-insert. I would never buy Magneto bowing to him. Kitty is another who tends to get this treatment by some writers but I'll say that the female characters usually get more flack from this even though they're less often the problem than the male ones are. It's so common with male characters, such as with Cyclops, that we don't even bat our eyelashes at it anymore based on how normalized it is with them. I had no idea that Cyclops went around saying that he "was the X-Men." So very pretentious and there's a reason every other fandom has had enough of this guy. Meanwhile his supporters on Reddit are constantly trashing Warren and others.

I agree with Hakka84's earlier statements that Warren gets the brunt of it because he's viewed as overly privileged and not PC enough for this era. Never mind that lots of actual problematic characters are constantly uplifted at his expense.

[Thievery]

Yeah, Warren is basically a non-presence in X-Men Forever. Not worth getting for him.

Cyclops is the prime example of a character who was allowed to dominate the X-Books for the 2000s because writers used him as a self-insert. I would never buy Magneto bowing to him. Kitty is another who tends to get this treatment by some writers but I'll say that the female characters usually get more flack from this even though they're less often the problem than the male ones are. It's so common with male characters, such as with Cyclops, that we don't even bat our eyelashes at it anymore based on how normalized it is with them. I had no idea that Cyclops went around saying that he "was the X-Men." So very pretentious and there's a reason every other fandom has had enough of this guy. Meanwhile his supporters on Reddit are constantly trashing Warren and others.

I agree with Hakka84's earlier statements that Warren gets the brunt of it because he's viewed as overly privileged and not PC enough for this era. Never mind that lots of actual problematic characters are constantly uplifted at his expense.

I think that Cyclops was allowed to dominate the 2000s because Fox owned the movie rights. Marvel threw the X-Men fans a few crumbs like Cyclops, Emma, Wolverine, and occasionally Gambit. Storm got some love because of the Black Panther wedding.

Actually, Wolverine appearances started to explode during the 2000s. He was on two or even three teams at the same time.

If you think that Angel has it rough because some fans view him as overly privileged and not PC enough just wait for tomorrow's Giant Size issue. Apparently the comic is going to lean into the idea that Warren is overly privileged.

I don't get how Angel can not be PC enough for this era. He's a mutant who fights for a mutants rights.

But, whatever. A lot of fans who bash damn near every character are doing it just because they feel insecure about their own character.

I hate Fantomex and Quire, and I have to admit that I've bashed them more than a few times, but I don't make all of my posts about how much I dislike the two of them.

So, I still think that it's best to ignore Reddit, even though I was told in another thread that some some Marvel people actually lurk there. You really can't control that stuff anyway. Especially not even what the Marvel employee lurkers think and say.

[Master of Sound]

Awesome to see Archangel will feature as leader of the new X-Factor team. I was scared he would remain in the background. Thrilled he gets time to shine.

[whitecrown]

I'm thrilled that Warren is getting his chance to lead again (in UXF, he always felt like a sort of unofficial leader even if Logan led the actual squad). Interested in seeing him with fellow original member, Alex.

[Hakka84]

*Hakka is currently on blue screen. Please try again*

Seriously, I'm so, so happy and emotional right now. I was already sure that Warren would vanish after Giant-Size.
If we didn't know Nocenti had pitched the story for other characters before resorting on Warren, I would say Giant-Size is meant to launch Warren for X-Factor.
Still, it's an interesting coincidence that today we get the announcement and tomorrow Giant-Size.

I know it's a silly thing (we're speaking about a fictional character after all), but I'm on the verge of tears of happiness. I like the rush of endorphin.
I will get normal, I swear. But at the moment I'm like our Mercury after recent announcement about Jean and Phoenix. ç_ç

One reason that I hate the slow role out of the new line of X-Men comics is that I need to know which ones I need to save my money for. I want to have some money on hand to spend on a comic if Archangel is a cast member. On the other hand if it turns out that Warren won't be in any of the comics than I may have missed a chance to budget my money for something else.

What were you saying, Thievery? You called it!

I don't get how Angel can not be PC enough for this era. He's a mutant who fights for a mutants rights.

Not to mention Warren was the first to come out as mutant. Ok, he was rich, so on one side he could afford it, but on the other side it was even more dangerous for someone like him to come out publicly.
Also, he's been an amputee(right term?) at some point. And the whole Archangel things is clearly a mental issue, so he isn't neurotypical(right term?) either?
But white-blond-rich apparently tops everything. Apparently a privileged mutant (former queen, appointed ruler of the Solar System and almost literal goddess) is better in terms of representation because she has dark skin. Ok.
(it might seem I have beef with Storm. I don't.. I could mention Sunspot, but I know so little about him that I don't know about Berto's life enough)

Warren, in Tumblr/slash circles, is seen as a metaphor for trans (for his "binding the wings"). And some insist on him being trans.
(which irks me so much because, of all the X-Men, Warren is the least one to give me "closeted trans". But, hey, there a growing portion of Star Trek art fandom that draws Captain James bloody Kirk trans, so...)

I'm thrilled that Warren is getting his chance to lead again (in UXF, he always felt like a sort of unofficial leader even if Logan led the actual squad). Interested in seeing him with fellow original member, Alex.

I think they worked in a Cap-Iron Man way (if I understood how Cap and Tony worked together). One funded it and was a leader in the HQ, the other was the sole leader on the field. I should re-read it, but I think the leadership was never clearly shown on paper: you knew that Logan was in charge, but it wasn't explicitly said and none of the team members really acted like they took orders from Logan. Or I might remember wrong.

[whitecrown]

Warren, in Tumblr/slash circles, is seen as a metaphor for trans (for his "binding the wings"). And some insist on him being trans.
(which irks me so much because, of all the X-Men, Warren is the least one to give me "closeted trans". But, hey, there a growing portion of Star Trek art fandom that draws Captain James bloody Kirk trans, so...)


I think they worked in a Cap-Iron Man way (if I understood how Cap and Tony worked together). One funded it and was a leader in the HQ, the other was the sole leader on the field. I should re-read it, but I think the leadership was never clearly shown on paper: you knew that Logan was in charge, but it wasn't explicitly said and none of the team members really acted like they took orders from Logan. Or I might remember wrong.

I've never read Warren that way but if it gets him more fans, I'm all for it. Sometimes allegories like this are what keep certain characters relevant so if Warren is viewed as trans-coded or queer-coded, it can sustain his popularity. I can see it more based on the 90s show and movies where he does feel the need to bind his wings so as to not be exposed and wants to be cured.

That's a good comparison, with Cap/Stark. I don't remember Logan ever being designated official team leader either. It seemed to more flow naturally that way because Logan had lead the previous X-Force team, was the only member to cross over into this new one, and he was the one who put it together and recruited the new members. So it seemed logical that he was leading while Warren was funding it and providing the HQ. Warren's link to Apocalypse also seemed to give him more authority because Apocalypse was the first target. Especially as Warren become submissive to the burgeoning presence of Archangel, it felt like Betsy's authority on the team conversely grew.

[Hakka84]

I've never read Warren that way but if it gets him more fans, I'm all for it. Sometimes allegories like this are what keep certain characters relevant so if Warren is viewed as trans-coded or queer-coded, it can sustain his popularity. I can see it more based on the 90s show and movies where he does feel the need to bind his wings so as to not be exposed and wants to be cured.

As long as it stays in (a small) fan part of the fandom. I dread the moment some of these fans are grown up as artist/writer and has the chance to pitch a story for Warren to come out as trans (which I don't see how could that happen, as he should've transitioned before the X-Men), and Marvel accepting to make Warren relevant again and get some points for being woke and inclusive.

That's a good comparison, with Cap/Stark. I don't remember Logan ever being designated official team leader either. It seemed to more flow naturally that way because Logan had lead the previous X-Force team, was the only member to cross over into this new one, and he was the one who put it together and recruited the new members. So it seemed logical that he was leading while Warren was funding it and providing the HQ. Warren's link to Apocalypse also seemed to give him more authority because Apocalypse was the first target. Especially as Warren become submissive to the burgeoning presence of Archangel, it felt like Betsy's authority on the team conversely grew.

I also think that Logan fell naturally in the role because of his experience. It would be remiss from Warren to impose himself on someone who was literally moulded for such a role and, as a good CEO, Warren should've learned that you are a good CEO when you pick the best people for the job and you lean on them, more than imposing yourself.

Might be my headcanon clouding my judgment, but I always perceived Betsy as very dominant (not in a B/Ds meaning; I mean outside the bed), and I always got the feeling Warren was fine with letting her be the dominant of the two, and he followed. He's not a simp(right term?) or a submissive who obeys a master, but IMHO he's fine with letting her take the lead, unless he needs to step up (she's out cold or in danger, or the circumstances require from him to become proactive instead of a follower)
So, more than the influence of Archangel, I think he just let Betsy's authority grow in the team because he's used to let her do this.
Does what I wrote makes sense?

As Phantomex says in UXF, isn't emasculating to be so dependant from a woman?
And Warren wasn't in the least worried, ashamed or annoyed by the jab.

[whitecrown]

As long as it stays in (a small) fan part of the fandom. I dread the moment some of these fans are grown up as artist/writer and has the chance to pitch a story for Warren to come out as trans (which I don't see how could that happen, as he should've transitioned before the X-Men), and Marvel accepting to make Warren relevant again and get some points for being woke and inclusive.


I also think that Logan fell naturally in the role because of his experience. It would be remiss from Warren to impose himself on someone who was literally moulded for such a role and, as a good CEO, Warren should've learned that you are a good CEO when you pick the best people for the job and you lean on them, more than imposing yourself.

Might be my headcanon clouding my judgment, but I always perceived Betsy as very dominant (not in a B/Ds meaning; I mean outside the bed), and I always got the feeling Warren was fine with letting her be the dominant of the two, and he followed. He's not a simp(right term?) or a submissive who obeys a master, but IMHO he's fine with letting her take the lead, unless he needs to step up (she's out cold or in danger, or the circumstances require from him to become proactive instead of a follower)
So, more than the influence of Archangel, I think he just let Betsy's authority grow in the team because he's used to let her do this.
Does what I wrote makes sense?

That's true. I wouldn't think of it as ever developing enough of a following to demand continuity alterations that but then again, Bobby had a complete transformation so it's never out of the cards these days with Marvel. What might be more interesting is if one of Warren and Betsy's kids (like the two daughters they envisioned having in UXF) turned out to be trans. I think it would be interesting there because of the identity issues their parents faced and all the body swaps and transformations.

Yes, Warren doesn't have the experience working for a black ops team like Logan. He took over when he did have the chops to deal with certain situations like when it dealt with Apocalypse or in terms of business and anything fiscal-related. X-Factor right now feels more appropriate for his skillset to justify him being a leader. I've always felt he was never given his due as one of the X-Men's leaders since basically everyone's lead a team at this point, so this leadership role feels long overdue.

I understand your point completely and I think it makes perfect sense. I see it similarly that not just Archangel's influence, but Betsy's dominant nature would allow Warren to take more of a backseat. If you look at the women in his life, generally they've been pretty headstrong and formidable like Betsy, Jean, Candy, and I think even Charlotte to a small extent, especially when you consider her initial reluctance to be part of the superhero community and how firm she was about that. In UXF, isn't this even brought up how Warren basically lets himself be lead around by Betsy? I don't remember if it was Shadow King or the Archangel persona who taunts him about this dynamic with Betsy and how she's basically holding the leash and the keys to his cage.

[Hakka84]

I understand your point completely and I think it makes perfect sense. I see it similarly that not just Archangel's influence, but Betsy's dominant nature would allow Warren to take more of a backseat. If you look at the women in his life, generally they've been pretty headstrong and formidable like Betsy, Jean, Candy, and I think even Charlotte to a small extent, especially when you consider her initial reluctance to be part of the superhero community and how firm she was about that. In UXF, isn't this even brought up how Warren basically lets himself be lead around by Betsy? I don't remember if it was Shadow King or the Archangel persona who taunts him about this dynamic with Betsy and how she's basically holding the leash and the keys to his cage.

Oh yes, Charlotte was very strong. In a certain way, I think she was the strongest of the lot, since she didn't have superpowers and faced Archangel (unlike Candy, who was friends with Warren since before he got his wings). Candy got it "easier", she dated the more happier and self-assured and proud Warren of his publication's history. It was very easy to be Warren's girl back then (if you liked the type, obvs). He got the whole superhero baggage (which is a lot, mind me), but that's all.
Charlotte got a depressed and hurting guy with anger issues, the moon to the Angel's sun.

Charlotte was a blessing for him, the right woman for the right moment, IMHO. Because she's so strong that he leaned on her to help while he attempted to find himself.
Which made all things more tragic for Charlotte because as Warren finally found himself back on track (around his and Jean's encounter with Candy, time speaking), he ghosted her.
Poor Charlotte.
I know that any author could've made Warren re-establish himself by his own, but canon gave us Charlotte. So, canon speaking, he owns his 90s recover to Charlotte and, fundamentally, even his being ready for a romance with Betsy is thanks to Charlotte (for I don't think late X-Factor's Warren would've been in the place of mind to romance someone like Betsy). IMHO.

Hmm. I do remember this jab, but might be from Uncanny X-Men? When Betsy literally is holding Warren (an Archangel actually) on a leash?
(I checked UXF up to the confrontation with SK, to search the Phantomex jab about dependency, and nope)