Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[Hakka84]

Thank you. I always loved this pic.
Not sure, but it might come from the box of the comiquette statue. Which I have (I was so crazy when I spent 280€ on that thing!), so I should know...
Or is an art from some card series. IDK.
But it's amazing. Lemme see if I can find the full pic.
Edit: here. I fixed the colors, as you might notice. Not sure why they made the suit so dark and greyish.

From the Beast's thread:

!!!!!!!!

This is from X-Men Unlimited, from after Krakoa. Hank is just interacting with his friends and no-one's mentioning any warcrimes or anything of the sort:







I couldn't get any larger versions, sorry.

Agh!!! He's wearing those damn glasses again! I'm going to associate them forever with bad-Beast.

[mattsarchamp]

The Giant Size story is very decent for me, especially if you're a true Warren fan. Highly appreciated and recommended.

[Havok83]

I thought it was boring

[berserkerclaw]

Nothing happened in it leading to X-factor so wont buy it personally

[Hakka84]

The Giant Size story is very decent for me, especially if you're a true Warren fan. Highly appreciated and recommended.

Definitely! It's a good story that balances "action" and psychological journey.

Adding my unpolished wall of text/review that I was holding back if any kind soul made the thread, as I don't feel like doing one myself. Sorry for that.
Under spoilers of course.

spoilers:

Nocenti knows her canon. I like the art. Not my favourite style, but it does its job, anatomy is very good and Warren is lean and yet muscular, the suit fits like a glow. In the pics when he's seen all stretched up the work on the muscles is perfection. I adore the artist/colourist for the flashback scenes. The Warren saving people from the fire is one of the most handsome that Marvel ever gave us, on par with the timedisplaced in the scene where he's in a bedroom with Laura Kinney. Returning to the story. Nocenti treated with so much respect Warren IMHO, and I felt his voice through the story. I loved how Nocenti dug into what could be Warren's deep fears, that he might be loved because of his money, something that took root in him so much that he puts this (skewed) view in the mouth of his closest chosen family (=Jean and Scott, arguely the two non-romances people in the world that he loved and loves the most). And not only Nocenti dug into it but expanded, rubbing salt on the wound while at it, but also giving us a reason to believe why Warren would ever have this fear when in-canon the X-Men never did something to warrant for such a fear to exist. It was also nice to see a slice of his life could've been with Cameron and Candy. But, speaking of Cameron and Candy... I have some issues with some wrong tidbits in the flashbacks that either directly conflict with canon or twist it a bit. But it might be Warren's memory to give these wrong details so it's not so much worth it to fixate on this. Still: 1) Candy (and I guess the other boy is Cameron?) is rich, so I don't get the mention of the snowsuit (as if they couldn't afford it) and the "we'll warm up walking", or why Warren couldn't be seen with them. (the whole lines gave me the feeling Warren is hanging out with children of a poor family, not children of a lower class but still rich) 2) Warren was wearing tunic and wig when he saved his peers from the fire (that could be a mistake of the artist, though) 3) The Worthingtons being into pharmaceutics is something from the movies, never this has been mentioned in the comics. The Worthington industries are a "conglomerate" and could be big pharma too, so it doesn't directly conflict with canon, though. 4) Warren's wings sprouted when he was in the boarding/prep school, and neither Cameron or Candy would've been present. Cameron was retroactively placed in Warren's pre-X-Men life, so we can ignore the conflict with canon. Also, canon never clarified when Cameron entered Warren's life (in X-Factor there are two different stories about this, one is Warren saying they met at college, the other version is Cameron mentioning the boarding school) Candy is a whole lot thing. She's introduced as an old flame/friend of his, which means pre-X-Men. Yet, she doesn't know Warren is the Angel until at least Warren Jr.'s death by Dazzler's hands. ATM I don't remember if Candy discovered the Angel's identity in that story, of she discovered it off panel sometime between one appearance and the next. It goes without saying that, should she know about her wings since before the Avenging Angel adventures, she would know that the Angel of the X-Men is Warren the very same day the X-Men make it to the newspapers. Ok, rambles of a canon sticker are finished. Speaking of flashbacks, I liked that - while enjoying his life as rich kid pre-mutation - he still showed that he wanted to do more with his privilege. So, we got some nice introspection, Warren being called out for his inability to choose (and accept) Archangel, and Warren owning it up. Also, despite what Nocenti said in the interview, she showed us that Warren does have a good heart and he had it since before nature gave him the curve ball of the mutation.

end of spoilers

I can understand those who didn't find the story interesting. It doesn't have action so to speak, and it's mostly a journey into Warren's psyche, his fears and someone forcing him to focus within and face some of those fears and truths he did his best to flee from in the last years.
Nocenti takes Warren from a place and leaves him in a better place, IMHO. If future authors would pick from here, Warren would benefit. Else... this will remain just a very good (IMHO) story about not Angel-the-hero, Archangel-the-killing-machine or Warren Worthington III-the-billionaire, but the whole person, which is all of them.

[mattsarchamp]

Definitely! It's a good story that balances "action" and psychological journey.

Adding my unpolished wall of text/review that I was holding back if any kind soul made the thread, as I don't feel like doing one myself. Sorry for that.
Under spoilers of course.

spoilers:

Nocenti knows her canon. I like the art. Not my favourite style, but it does its job, anatomy is very good and Warren is lean and yet muscular, the suit fits like a glow. In the pics when he's seen all stretched up the work on the muscles is perfection. I adore the artist/colourist for the flashback scenes. The Warren saving people from the fire is one of the most handsome that Marvel ever gave us, on par with the timedisplaced in the scene where he's in a bedroom with Laura Kinney. Returning to the story. Nocenti treated with so much respect Warren IMHO, and I felt his voice through the story. I loved how Nocenti dug into what could be Warren's deep fears, that he might be loved because of his money, something that took root in him so much that he puts this (skewed) view in the mouth of his closest chosen family (=Jean and Scott, arguely the two non-romances people in the world that he loved and loves the most). And not only Nocenti dug into it but expanded, rubbing salt on the wound while at it, but also giving us a reason to believe why Warren would ever have this fear when in-canon the X-Men never did something to warrant for such a fear to exist. It was also nice to see a slice of his life could've been with Cameron and Candy. But, speaking of Cameron and Candy... I have some issues with some wrong tidbits in the flashbacks that either directly conflict with canon or twist it a bit. But it might be Warren's memory to give these wrong details so it's not so much worth it to fixate on this. Still: 1) Candy (and I guess the other boy is Cameron?) is rich, so I don't get the mention of the snowsuit (as if they couldn't afford it) and the "we'll warm up walking", or why Warren couldn't be seen with them. (the whole lines gave me the feeling Warren is hanging out with children of a poor family, not children of a lower class but still rich) 2) Warren was wearing tunic and wig when he saved his peers from the fire (that could be a mistake of the artist, though) 3) The Worthingtons being into pharmaceutics is something from the movies, never this has been mentioned in the comics. The Worthington industries are a "conglomerate" and could be big pharma too, so it doesn't directly conflict with canon, though. 4) Warren's wings sprouted when he was in the boarding/prep school, and neither Cameron or Candy would've been present. Cameron was retroactively placed in Warren's pre-X-Men life, so we can ignore the conflict with canon. Also, canon never clarified when Cameron entered Warren's life (in X-Factor there are two different stories about this, one is Warren saying they met at college, the other version is Cameron mentioning the boarding school) Candy is a whole lot thing. She's introduced as an old flame/friend of his, which means pre-X-Men. Yet, she doesn't know Warren is the Angel until at least Warren Jr.'s death by Dazzler's hands. ATM I don't remember if Candy discovered the Angel's identity in that story, of she discovered it off panel sometime between one appearance and the next. It goes without saying that, should she know about her wings since before the Avenging Angel adventures, she would know that the Angel of the X-Men is Warren the very same day the X-Men make it to the newspapers. Ok, rambles of a canon sticker are finished. Speaking of flashbacks, I liked that - while enjoying his life as rich kid pre-mutation - he still showed that he wanted to do more with his privilege. So, we got some nice introspection, Warren being called out for his inability to choose (and accept) Archangel, and Warren owning it up. Also, despite what Nocenti said in the interview, she showed us that Warren does have a good heart and he had it since before nature gave him the curve ball of the mutation.

end of spoilers

I can understand those who didn't find the story interesting. It doesn't have action so to speak, and it's mostly a journey into Warren's psyche, his fears and someone forcing him to focus within and face some of those fears and truths he did his best to flee from in the last years.
Nocenti takes Warren from a place and leaves him in a better place, IMHO. If future authors would pick from here, Warren would benefit. Else... this will remain just a very good (IMHO) story about not Angel-the-hero, Archangel-the-killing-machine or Warren Worthington III-the-billionaire, but the whole person, which is all of them.

Nicely done, mate! I thought this is how a character is being fleshed out regardless of the lack of action. This kind of storytelling is sorely missed these days and I remember back in the days when Claremont used to do this with some of his favorites like Logan. It's like an anthology of Warren's past experiences.

Now we can all look forward to the upcoming X-Factor to witness the actions we are looking for.

[whitecrown]

I haven't read Giant-Size X-Men yet but looking forward to it. Question, is Dazzler mentioned as one of his exes? I find it really interesting that they were technically a thing in her series but it's never been brought up after that (besides a cursory mention in Inferno where Dazzler notices he's not attractive anymore from becoming bald...even then it's vague enough that you would just think she knew of him and had a crush, not that they were a thing).

Also anything in particular about Wanda, Betsy, or Jean?

[Til]

I haven't read Giant-Size X-Men yet but looking forward to it. Question, is Dazzler mentioned as one of his exes? I find it really interesting that they were technically a thing in her series but it's never been brought up after that (besides a cursory mention in Inferno where Dazzler notices he's not attractive anymore from becoming bald...even then it's vague enough that you would just think she knew of him and had a crush, not that they were a thing).

Also anything in particular about Wanda, Betsy, or Jean?

No, Dazzler isn't mentioned. As for his exes: nothing in particular is said about Wanda or Betsy. For Jean: spoilers:

Fake Jean and Fake Scott go after him for chasing after Jean even though he knew she and Scott loved each other. They say him doing that created a love triangle that not only affected them, but also changed the course of what the X-Men were supposed to be. Another thing is that Warren's afraid neither of them actually care about him, and his only use to them is as a source of money.

end of spoilers

[Thievery]

Read Giant Size. It was okay.

It acknowledged some of Warren's flaws in neat ways. It was kind of interesting to see how Warren justified things in his own mind.

Some of it I didn't understand, though.

The comic makes it seem as though Warren is much wealthier than either Cam Hodge or Candy, yet the comic says that Candy couldn't afford a fancy winter suit like Warren's. The only thing that I can figure is that it is meant to be some kind of idea that Warren left Candy out in the cold and alone when Jean comes back in X-Factor, but it doesn't really feel like that was what the story was going for.

I get that the story uses altered memories of Angel's past, but if I'm reading the story correctly it is suggesting that Jean was with the X-Men before Angel joined.

I don't remember Angel's company being in charge of the Krakoan medicine. I thought that was made by Krakoa, Xavier's shell companies, and then managed by The Hellfire trading Company. What story am I forgetting?

I wish that the comic had come up with some justification for why Warren didn't give money to the homeless girl.
And it was strange that Warren just let Maze walk free at the end of the story. If she is that dangerous he can't just let her go and attack someone else.

The story was okay, but I don't think that it was good enough to justify being in a comic that cost as much as it did.

I haven't read Giant-Size X-Men yet but looking forward to it. Question, is Dazzler mentioned as one of his exes? I find it really interesting that they were technically a thing in her series but it's never been brought up after that (besides a cursory mention in Inferno where Dazzler notices he's not attractive anymore from becoming bald...even then it's vague enough that you would just think she knew of him and had a crush, not that they were a thing).

Also anything in particular about Wanda, Betsy, or Jean?

Dazzler doesn't show up. I think it makes sense. I don't think that they were ever really together, Angel just pursued her.
There is mention of Jean, not of Betsy.
And Charlotte Jones is completely forgotten about.
Edit: Til beat me while I was away from my laptop for a bit.

I had my main reaction in the X-Factor thread, but I'm very happy that Warren is going to be in a book in the new era. It's not one of the flagship books, but I've always considered X-Factor and X-Force to be just slightly below X-Men, so I'm satisfied. I can't remember if X-Corp was always just a mini or if it was an ongoing that got stealth canceled, but this is the highest profile book Warren has had since Soule's Astonishing, I believe.

When Krakoa originally started there was meant to be a monthly X-Corp book. An artist for it was announced in the letters page of a different comic. I want to say that it was Captain Marvel.

By the time that X-Corp was published it was meant to be a monthly that was stealth cancelled and turned into a mini. I think that I remember someone at Marvel, maybe JDW, saying that sales weren't strong enough to continue.
The same thing happened to BB: Captain Britain.

[Malachi]

I thought Giant-Size was going to illuminate on what happened after Dark X-men. Maybe they are saving that, stupid as it is, to X-factor. It doesn’t make sense to me… maybe that whole Apocalypse heir will deal with it.

The issue was a good deep dive into Warrens early history and his troubles. The art for me felt good to great. I liked the purple in Maze and on Archangel, it popped.

What I missed was his later history, which is no surprise since that is what resonates more to me then early O5. Candy was fun but I would have liked more Betsy and for Opal to show up.

Overall a good issue but it didn’t really add anything memorable beside a refresh on Warren.

[whitecrown]

No, Dazzler isn't mentioned. As for his exes: nothing in particular is said about Wanda or Betsy. For Jean: spoilers:

Fake Jean and Fake Scott go after him for chasing after Jean even though he knew she and Scott loved each other. They say him doing that created a love triangle that not only affected them, but also changed the course of what the X-Men were supposed to be. Another thing is that Warren's afraid neither of them actually care about him, and his only use to them is as a source of money.

end of spoilers

Dazzler doesn't show up. I think it makes sense. I don't think that they were ever really together, Angel just pursued her.
There is mention of Jean, not of Betsy.
And Charlotte Jones is completely forgotten about.
Edit: Til beat me while I was away from my laptop for a bit.

I guess Wanda's inclusion was really just an easter egg. With her being such a high-profile character now, I would have liked more of her dynamic with Warren. I find it odd that Betsy isn't treated like a significant character in his life but I'm also wondering if that's partly because Nocenti is basing this more on the characters that were prevalent in her era and Betsy back then had zero relationship with Warren.
spoilers:

I'm guessing the parts with fake Jean and Scott will make more sense in the context of reading the actual issue. I've seen the scans where fake Jean accuses Warren of his actions with X-Corp which didn't feel right to me but if it's just his doubts manifesting, I suppose it would work that way. I didn't realize Warren must feel so much guilt about trying to pursue Jean. I'm not sure why really Warren would feel that this love triangle negatively impacted what the X-Men were about. And from what I re-read of the Silver Age last year, he more or less did step down once he realized that Jean liked Scott back. He knew about Scott's feelings but I don't think he 100% knew that Jean preferred Scott until much later, which is when he decided to stop pursuing her.

end of spoilers

That's a pity that Charlotte is completely ignored. I'm guessing also a by-product of her not being handled by Nocenti since I think Nocenti was not ever Simonson's editor on X-Factor.

The Dazzler stuff also makes me curious what other Warren fans think of his depiction there. I remember a lot of people were disgusted by how poorly written he was, becoming a glorified stalker of Dazzler and the way he was treated like an inept superhero who was easily defeated by Mystique and Rogue. I think there's also an issue where he gets shot as well. Angel's depiction in this series was described in the Comics Journal as "...a callous, arrogant jerk with the intelligence of a fire hydrant..."

[Til]

spoilers:

I'm guessing the parts with fake Jean and Scott will make more sense in the context of reading the actual issue. I've seen the scans where fake Jean accuses Warren of his actions with X-Corp which didn't feel right to me but if it's just his doubts manifesting, I suppose it would work that way. I didn't realize Warren must feel so much guilt about trying to pursue Jean. I'm not sure why really Warren would feel that this love triangle negatively impacted what the X-Men were about. And from what I re-read of the Silver Age last year, he more or less did step down once he realized that Jean liked Scott back. He knew about Scott's feelings but I don't think he 100% knew that Jean preferred Scott until much later, which is when he decided to stop pursuing her.

end of spoilers

It's kind of up in the air on whether or not the things the fake versions say are actually how Warren feels, or if it's just what the villain assumes about him. spoilers:

She says she built the "encounter" based on information she got from the internet about him. But at the same time, a lot of it is highly personal stuff that would never be on a fan blog somewhere, so I kind of thought there must be some mind-reading tech involved. I don't think that's ever said for sure though.

end of spoilers

[Til]

I don't remember Angel's company being in charge of the Krakoan medicine. I thought that was made by Krakoa, Xavier's shell companies, and then managed by The Hellfire trading Company. What story am I forgetting?

I don't think you're forgetting anything. I thought the same when I read the issue. X-Corp was more like Apple, making tech products for consumers. Like you and Hakka pointed out, there are several continuity errors in the story. I think this is just one of them.

[Thievery]

I haven't read Giant-Size X-Men yet but looking forward to it. Question, is Dazzler mentioned as one of his exes? I find it really interesting that they were technically a thing in her series but it's never been brought up after that (besides a cursory mention in Inferno where Dazzler notices he's not attractive anymore from becoming bald...even then it's vague enough that you would just think she knew of him and had a crush, not that they were a thing).

Also anything in particular about Wanda, Betsy, or Jean?

I had my main reaction in the X-Factor thread, but I'm very happy that Warren is going to be in a book in the new era. It's not one of the flagship books, but I've always considered X-Factor and X-Force to be just slightly below X-Men, so I'm satisfied. I can't remember if X-Corp was always just a mini or if it was an ongoing that got stealth canceled, but this is the highest profile book Warren has had since Soule's Astonishing, I believe.

I thought Giant-Size was going to illuminate on what happened after Dark X-men. Maybe they are saving that, stupid as it is, to X-factor. It doesn’t make sense to me… maybe that whole Apocalypse heir will deal with it.

The issue was a good deep dive into Warrens early history and his troubles. The art for me felt good to great. I liked the purple in Maze and on Archangel, it popped.

What I missed was his later history, which is no surprise since that is what resonates more to me then early O5. Candy was fun but I would have liked more Betsy and for Opal to show up.

Overall a good issue but it didn’t really add anything memorable beside a refresh on Warren.

Warren was part of the mass resurrection that happened in the recent minis by Gillen. I doubt if there were will ever be any sort of fallout from Dark X-Men to talk about, seeing as Warren ends up coming back with no problem.

I don't think you're forgetting anything. I thought the same when I read the issue. X-Corp was more like Apple, making tech products for consumers. Like you and Hakka pointed out, there are several continuity errors in the story. I think this is just one of them.

Thanks. I thought that X-Corp comic dealt with internet stuff, but I thought that I might have forgotten something from an earlier X-Corp appearance, or even something from one of the PoX or HoX comics.

[Hakka84]

Backlog!
Splitting in two posts!

Dazzler doesn't show up. I think it makes sense. I don't think that they were ever really together, Angel just pursued her.

(...)

When Krakoa originally started there was meant to be a monthly X-Corp book. An artist for it was announced in the letters page of a different comic. I want to say that it was Captain Marvel.

By the time that X-Corp was published it was meant to be a monthly that was stealth cancelled and turned into a mini. I think that I remember someone at Marvel, maybe JDW, saying that sales weren't strong enough to continue.
The same thing happened to BB: Captain Britain.

Replied to your questions about the medicin in the other thread.

He doesn't let her go free. She has her wrist tied and he said he would turn her in.

Yes, poor Charlotte.
Regardin Dazzler. They were together, in the solo, but it lasted very little. It was like with Wanda, but there was some kisses involved as far as I remember.

Too bad IMHO. I think X-Office cared for the sales only when they wanted. I don't believe it that all the ongoings got decent sales. I think X-Office pushed/committed to some titles, while let others go. Being that both X-Corp and BB were Tiny Howard's, my impression is that X-Office already committed to the non-stellar-seller Excalibur, so they didn't do the same for another series of hers. But obvs it's me making speculations. Nobody will ever confirm or deny.

I thought Giant-Size was going to illuminate on what happened after Dark X-men. Maybe they are saving that, stupid as it is, to X-factor. It doesn’t make sense to me… maybe that whole Apocalypse heir will deal with it.

The issue was a good deep dive into Warrens early history and his troubles. The art for me felt good to great. I liked the purple in Maze and on Archangel, it popped.

What I missed was his later history, which is no surprise since that is what resonates more to me then early O5. Candy was fun but I would have liked more Betsy and for Opal to show up.

Overall a good issue but it didn’t really add anything memorable beside a refresh on Warren.

Why should Opal show up? Opal the gal who dated Bobby? Because she's never been part of Warren's life. They barely interacted once on page.
No point in expecting anyone to explain what happened after Dark X-Men. Warren somehow reached the White Hot Room and returned from there. The matter is closed, for Marvel.