Warren Worthington: (Arch)Angel Appreciation 2024

[Thievery]

I haven't read Giant-Size X-Men yet but looking forward to it. Question, is Dazzler mentioned as one of his exes? I find it really interesting that they were technically a thing in her series but it's never been brought up after that (besides a cursory mention in Inferno where Dazzler notices he's not attractive anymore from becoming bald...even then it's vague enough that you would just think she knew of him and had a crush, not that they were a thing).

Also anything in particular about Wanda, Betsy, or Jean?

I had my main reaction in the X-Factor thread, but I'm very happy that Warren is going to be in a book in the new era. It's not one of the flagship books, but I've always considered X-Factor and X-Force to be just slightly below X-Men, so I'm satisfied. I can't remember if X-Corp was always just a mini or if it was an ongoing that got stealth canceled, but this is the highest profile book Warren has had since Soule's Astonishing, I believe.

I thought Giant-Size was going to illuminate on what happened after Dark X-men. Maybe they are saving that, stupid as it is, to X-factor. It doesn’t make sense to me… maybe that whole Apocalypse heir will deal with it.

The issue was a good deep dive into Warrens early history and his troubles. The art for me felt good to great. I liked the purple in Maze and on Archangel, it popped.

What I missed was his later history, which is no surprise since that is what resonates more to me then early O5. Candy was fun but I would have liked more Betsy and for Opal to show up.

Overall a good issue but it didn’t really add anything memorable beside a refresh on Warren.

Warren was part of the mass resurrection that happened in the recent minis by Gillen. I doubt if there were will ever be any sort of fallout from Dark X-Men to talk about, seeing as Warren ends up coming back with no problem.

I don't think you're forgetting anything. I thought the same when I read the issue. X-Corp was more like Apple, making tech products for consumers. Like you and Hakka pointed out, there are several continuity errors in the story. I think this is just one of them.

Thanks. I thought that X-Corp comic dealt with internet stuff, but I thought that I might have forgotten something from an earlier X-Corp appearance, or even something from one of the PoX or HoX comics.

[Hakka84]

Thanks. I thought that X-Corp comic dealt with internet stuff, but I thought that I might have forgotten something from an earlier X-Corp appearance, or even something from one of the PoX or HoX comics.

As said elsewhere, they did produce the medicine too.
It feels continuity error because the medicines were established in Marauders and X-Corp didn't debut when it shoiuld've, so we all connect the medicines to the Hellfire Trading Company. Which, as the name suggests, does import/export, not the actual production. That first step falls on X-Corp.

I guess Wanda's inclusion was really just an easter egg. With her being such a high-profile character now, I would have liked more of her dynamic with Warren. I find it odd that Betsy isn't treated like a significant character in his life but I'm also wondering if that's partly because Nocenti is basing this more on the characters that were prevalent in her era and Betsy back then had zero relationship with Warren.
spoilers:

I'm guessing the parts with fake Jean and Scott will make more sense in the context of reading the actual issue. I've seen the scans where fake Jean accuses Warren of his actions with X-Corp which didn't feel right to me but if it's just his doubts manifesting, I suppose it would work that way. I didn't realize Warren must feel so much guilt about trying to pursue Jean. I'm not sure why really Warren would feel that this love triangle negatively impacted what the X-Men were about. And from what I re-read of the Silver Age last year, he more or less did step down once he realized that Jean liked Scott back. He knew about Scott's feelings but I don't think he 100% knew that Jean preferred Scott until much later, which is when he decided to stop pursuing her.

end of spoilers

That's a pity that Charlotte is completely ignored. I'm guessing also a by-product of her not being handled by Nocenti since I think Nocenti was not ever Simonson's editor on X-Factor.

The Dazzler stuff also makes me curious what other Warren fans think of his depiction there. I remember a lot of people were disgusted by how poorly written he was, becoming a glorified stalker of Dazzler and the way he was treated like an inept superhero who was easily defeated by Mystique and Rogue. I think there's also an issue where he gets shot as well. Angel's depiction in this series was described in the Comics Journal as "...a callous, arrogant jerk with the intelligence of a fire hydrant..."

The description is perfect. He comes out as a stalker who presses until Dazzler relents. Perhaps it was acceptable in the 80s, but read with nowaday's eyes, Warren comes out very bad.
And yes, even as Angel he makes a poor impression of himself. He's a rookie at best. I understand that he could have his issues dealing with Rogue, but he was a glorified damsel in distress the whole time.
I think Warren never got a worst characterization as in Dazzler's solo, especially because it was dragged in the span of many issues (compared to other times when it happens in an issue and then he vanishes again). He does redeem himself toward the end, but too little too late IMHO.

It's kind of up in the air on whether or not the things the fake versions say are actually how Warren feels, or if it's just what the villain assumes about him. spoilers:

She says she built the "encounter" based on information she got from the internet about him. But at the same time, a lot of it is highly personal stuff that would never be on a fan blog somewhere, so I kind of thought there must be some mind-reading tech involved. I don't think that's ever said for sure though.

end of spoilers

spoilers:

She also specifies that it's Warren's psyche doing the job. I think everything we see is influenced by Warren's own mind so it's not technically fake, but it's how Warren feels about things deep inside his own mind. IMHO obvs. I think one of the good things about this story is that it's written in a way that allows for interpretations.

end of spoilers

Nicely done, mate! I thought this is how a character is being fleshed out regardless of the lack of action. This kind of storytelling is sorely missed these days and I remember back in the days when Claremont used to do this with some of his favorites like Logan. It's like an anthology of Warren's past experiences.

Now we can all look forward to the upcoming X-Factor to witness the actions we are looking for.

Missed this in my replies.
I think part of the reasons why did story wasn't compelling for someone is the bolded part. We're not used to have a whole story in which there's so much focus on the psychology and mind of a person (unless it's a telepath fighting in the astral plane/involved in a psychic attack, IMHO)

[Veni]

[whitecrown]

The description is perfect. He comes out as a stalker who presses until Dazzler relents. Perhaps it was acceptable in the 80s, but read with nowaday's eyes, Warren comes out very bad.
And yes, even as Angel he makes a poor impression of himself. He's a rookie at best. I understand that he could have his issues dealing with Rogue, but he was a glorified damsel in distress the whole time.
I think Warren never got a worst characterization as in Dazzler's solo, especially because it was dragged in the span of many issues (compared to other times when it happens in an issue and then he vanishes again). He does redeem himself toward the end, but too little too late IMHO.

Warren wasn't even the only one. If you read Dazzler: The Movie, you realize Dazzler's type is men who take her nos to mean yes and keep pursuing her until she gives in.

Warren getting defeated by Mystique seems to have become a bit of a pattern since X-Men: Darktide did the same thing (the short film below).

And I agree that Dazzler was the worst characterization for Warren because he's a recurring character in the middle of the book so it's not even contained to a single issue. I'm not surprised his time in Dazzler is pretty much never referenced again.

[Super-Cyke]

Warren fans, I have a question. I'm spending some time reading an overview on this character and I get the impression his "form" has changed a number of times (organic wings then metal wings then organic wings, ability to change between the two, etc), but not only that. I've also noticed he seems to have some mutant powers that don't stay with him. For example, I'm getting the impression he used to have a healing factor with the ability to heal others with his blood, but I can't get a good answer on whether or not that mutant power stayed or was put away at some point. Same with this holy energy ability (celestial energy from a life seed).

Do you see this inconsistency of what mutant powers he has activated and what form he is in as a detriment to his character? Or do you like that they seem to like to try and switch things up with Warren and explore different abilities even if the abilities don't last indefinitely?

[Til]

Warren fans, I have a question. I'm spending some time reading an overview on this character and I get the impression his "form" has changed a number of times (organic wings then metal wings then organic wings, ability to change between the two, etc), but not only that. I've also noticed he seems to have some mutant powers that don't stay with him. For example, I'm getting the impression he used to have a healing factor with the ability to heal others with his blood, but I can't get a good answer on whether or not that mutant power stayed or was put away at some point. Same with this holy energy ability (celestial energy from a life seed).

Do you see this inconsistency of what mutant powers he has activated and what form he is in as a detriment to his character? Or do you like that they seem to like to try and switch things up with Warren and explore different abilities even if the abilities don't last indefinitely?

I guess it depends on which powers we're talking about. I like the metal wings and think they're a big boon to the character. They're what made me a fan of his in the first place when I was a kid. Technically he still has the healing factor, it got referenced not too long ago, but it's not like Wolverine's. Anything major will still kill him. Other than that though, I think the other powers they've tried over the years were just writing crutches. Life seed powers, energy wings from the Black Vortex, etc. At the end of the day, the metal wings are really the only "upgrade" he needed, IMO. Everything else is just dependent on good writing and character work/focus.

[Hakka84]

Do you see this inconsistency of what mutant powers he has activated and what form he is in as a detriment to his character? Or do you like that they seem to like to try and switch things up with Warren and explore different abilities even if the abilities don't last indefinitely?

Hmmm. On one side, I agree with Til.
On the other, I was a fan of both the original cosmic wings (the ones seen only in the Black Vortex crossover, not the flame wings he kept after - those were cool from an artistic point of view, but not as a power because most of the time they were an hurdle) and the (in)famous light wings that lasted one issue. Oh, also the light wings timedisplaced!Warren was shown to have in the future (in that panel in which he defeated our!Warren and got promoted to new Death by Apoccy)
I also didn't dislike the light powers from the Life Seed (although they did make him too close to Dazzler). I'm not sure ATM, but didn't he form a sword at some point? Or did he just do light/plasma bolts?
Anyway, I wouldn't dislike if he was given (back) the ability to form a light/plasma/not-metal sword (during Black Vortex, while in space, he got two swords made of cosmic fire). Or if they referenced his connection to the Crimson Dawn (=gave part of his life to balance things and save Betsy) and was given the CD's abilities to move through shadows/use the shadows.
But, really, his Archangel abilities should be enough to write him.

Oh gosh, sorry, slightly off topic!

To answer your question, Super-Cyke, technically on a general principle I like when abilities are introduced and then stay. If they go away I wished authors provided us a reason. See the lights wings during the Twelve saga - in-story was explained he drained the powers; a later author could've reintroduced them easily but we reader we were explained why we wouldn't expect to see them again. (I'm still annoyed that we never got any explanation why Betsy never kept the shadow powers from the Crimson Dawn when she returned in Revolution, or why she even lost the CD's mark after death).
With Warren, though, most of the times one ability comes to the detriment of a previous own (since they usually involve a change to his wings). And, unless he can keep all his wings forms and switch to use the best for the specific moment/fight, I'd rather he just kept his current powerset (switch from feathers to metal and all the abilities of the metal ones; decent healing factor but no "healing by sharing blood"). To introduce a new power of his usually doesn't bring much to the character: see the cosmic wings. As said, they looked quite cool but then became a generic flame thing that he couldn't use whenever he found himself somewhere inflammable (like a forest), so he was stuck to not be able to fly at all (which, given it's his only power... well, it sucked). It happened when he was temporarily bonded with a symbiote too: he was the only one of the teen!O5 who couldn't really use his powers (symbiote can develop wings on their own so the wings weren't Warren's), because fire don't agree with symbiote.

Speaking of the healing blood. The last time it was referenced was around the time when it was introduced; not sure if any writer other than the one who invented it ever mentioned this power. I'd rather this specific power goes into oblivion.

[Thievery]

Backlog!
Splitting in two posts!



Replied to your questions about the medicin in the other thread.

He doesn't let her go free. She has her wrist tied and he said he would turn her in.

Yes, poor Charlotte.
Regardin Dazzler. They were together, in the solo, but it lasted very little. It was like with Wanda, but there was some kisses involved as far as I remember.

Too bad IMHO. I think X-Office cared for the sales only when they wanted. I don't believe it that all the ongoings got decent sales. I think X-Office pushed/committed to some titles, while let others go. Being that both X-Corp and BB were Tiny Howard's, my impression is that X-Office already committed to the non-stellar-seller Excalibur, so they didn't do the same for another series of hers. But obvs it's me making speculations. Nobody will ever confirm or deny.

Thank you for pointing out the Savage Land lab that Madrox was running in X-Corp, both in this thread and the other one. I'd completely forgotten about it. Now I am going to have to reread X-Corp.

I guess that we interpret the scene with Maze differently. In the las circle panel with the close up with Angel's, I honestly thought that he was seriously considering letting Maze escape.
When I first read about the Maze character in the interviews promoting Giant-Size X-Men, I thought for sure that she would be a one and done throw away villain.
After seeing the X-Factor roster and reading the early description of the comic, I could see Maze being a useful villain in that comic, questioning what each X-Factor members real reasons were for joining the team.

I forgot to mention this before, but when the young kid at the beginning of the Giant Size comic asks Angel to take him flying, I thought that it might have been a call back to an earlier comic. The one that you bring up a lot where Angel helps the disabled kids to fly. I think that kid in Giant Sized X-Men is named Billy. He was with the group of people that Angel encounters before he enters the club.
I'm probably wrong, but I thought of the older comic when reading the scene.

As far as the early cancelations of X-Corp and Captain Britain go, I don't think that the particular writer of that comic was a factor. One of Nightcrawler's earlier comics by Spurrior also got canceled fairly quickly. I think that there may have been another comic as well, but I cant remember off of the top of my head.

The description is perfect. He comes out as a stalker who presses until Dazzler relents. Perhaps it was acceptable in the 80s, but read with nowaday's eyes, Warren comes out very bad.
And yes, even as Angel he makes a poor impression of himself. He's a rookie at best. I understand that he could have his issues dealing with Rogue, but he was a glorified damsel in distress the whole time.
I think Warren never got a worst characterization as in Dazzler's solo, especially because it was dragged in the span of many issues (compared to other times when it happens in an issue and then he vanishes again). He does redeem himself toward the end, but too little too late IMHO.

When I first joined this forum the Dazzler/Angel thing from the Dazzler comic came up a lot in Angel's thread. I cant remember whether the topic started before or after I started posting here, but it drove conversation a bit. Some people thought that Angel was stalking Dazzler, others thought that he was just pursuing her in ways that were more benign. It also came up because people were debating whether Angel was cheating on Candy, or whether they were considered to have broken up.
I read some of the old Dazzler comics to see for myself, but I don't really remember them, or what my opinion on whether Angel was a stalker.

I don't really have much of a problem with Angel getting beaten in fights in that comic. It was a book about Dazzler, so of course she was going to be made to look like the better character compared to Angel.
I do think that there is some truth to the old theory that it is hard to develop a love interest for female characters in their solo comics. When the female hero has to rescue her boyfriend the audience does tend to look at the male character as some thing of a wimp, and comes to dislike him. Unfair, but it probably is true.

But back to Angel/Dazzler. The Angel/Dazzler and Angel/Betsy relationships and debate about them coming up a lot in Angel threads is partly why I think that shipping has grown to be a fairly big part of Angel threads over the years. People would give their own opinions about Angel/Dazzler and Angel/Betsy, and then frequently offer a character that they would like to see Archangel with.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Looks like Foxe was wrong and Warren wasn't irredeemable, no surprise...

[Thievery]

Warren fans, I have a question. I'm spending some time reading an overview on this character and I get the impression his "form" has changed a number of times (organic wings then metal wings then organic wings, ability to change between the two, etc), but not only that. I've also noticed he seems to have some mutant powers that don't stay with him. For example, I'm getting the impression he used to have a healing factor with the ability to heal others with his blood, but I can't get a good answer on whether or not that mutant power stayed or was put away at some point. Same with this holy energy ability (celestial energy from a life seed).

Do you see this inconsistency of what mutant powers he has activated and what form he is in as a detriment to his character? Or do you like that they seem to like to try and switch things up with Warren and explore different abilities even if the abilities don't last indefinitely?

I view the constant changes in his powers and how they are used by different writers to be a gig detriment to the character.

You never get a clear understanding of how his powers work, and you have a hard time reading and understanding his stories.

Like if he is shot in one story and then his healing powers save him, you would be left to wonder why his healing power doesn't help him in a different story if the writer chooses not to use them.
And sometimes when he switches between his feather winged and metal winged forms his personality changes and other times it does not. Your left to guess what is happening to often.

I think that an in-comic explanation for how his powers work needs to be spelled out and made official cannon so that there is no confusion. Decide once and for all how his healing powers work and how strong they are, and don't change from that.

Looks like Foxe was wrong and Warren wasn't irredeemable, no surprise...

Or maybe we the readers jumped to our own conclusions to fast, and Foxe knew what was actually happening all along.
I think that it's pretty safe to say that Foxe had most of this planned out ahead of time.

[Hakka84]

Thanks LoganAlpha30X33. No playtime between the cat and the bird, so to speak, for the time being, then.

[Thievery]

Warren in Dazzler's solo wasn't a stalker in the very negative connotation of the word we use today. He was mostly a too much insistent suitor. Something that in old movies is shown to be something positive (a man who insists to overcome the girl "fake" initial reluctance - this was how it was meant to be read a male character that acted this way). Besides the behaviour itself, which is cringe (to say the least), it didn't feel right for someone like Warren to act that way - especially the Warren pre-XFactor? He's not the male who would insist if a woman don't fall for his charm, I think he would be that kind of arrogant man that would immediately stop pursuing someone who didn't immediately flirt back - but that's my headcanon, more than canon confirming this. And the more I try to think about it, there more it would make sense for someone rich and handsome to expect any woman to fall for him, and get stubbornlu fixated to the one who doesn't.
Still, he was unbereable to read, IMHO.

You know... might be my hardcore Warren/Betsy speaking, but I hope that it isn't Warren the one "who will fall in love", as per X-Factor's solicit. I don't want him to be involved with anyone at the moment. He deserves some spotlight on his own, without having to share with a partner.
Also, I couldn't find any woman that would work with him ATM.
He's free to fool around (he should give a ring to Black Cat, if she's not currently spoken for: she's been waiting since poker night!), but I don't want a romance for him.

I don't know, Angel pursued Jean for a while in 60's X-Men comics even though she clearly cared about Scott.

In my opinion, it was dumb to bring up Angel/Jean again in the original X-Factor, but it happened, and Warren didn't seem as if he had completely given up hope yet.
It was kind of interesting that in Giant Size X-Men Warren thought that his pursuing of Jean hurt the X-Men. There was a lot of talk about this earlier in this thread.

As far as who will fall in love in X-Factor, I really hadn't given that any thought. I guess that it could be Pyro and Frenzy as their powers would compliment each other, and their personalities are different enough to be interesting.

But since you don't want Archangel with anyone, I'm going to put forward Archangel and Feral getting together, and in your name and as your idea.
It will be a reverse Beauty and the Beast story. Instead of an ugly beastial man getting a pretty woman, the woman who looks like a cat will get the good looking guy.
Black Cat can go back to waiting at poker tables with Thing.

Felicia has a girlfriend at the moment, though she'll probably disappear as soon as the current writers run ends.

I'm guessing that Felicia's new girlfriend will turn on her before that comic ends. But, that could also be to predictable, so who knows?

Thanks LoganAlpha30X33. No playtime between the cat and the bird, so to speak, for the time being, then.

If the Archangel/Feral ship happens than there will be

[Hakka84]

Yes, the last panel, with Warren clearly torn/deep in thought, opens up for a different ending and two interpretations (mine and yours). But, given that Maze has threatened to go after all the X-Men, Warren wouldn't feel like letting her go, IMHO. Of course, only time will tell.

I think the boy was just meant to show us that the children are less bigot/intolerant, so he sees Angel (a long-time superhero) and likes him, compared to his mom who is racist.

Interesting the Dazzler/Warren Vs Warren/Candy.
I think the authors pretended he had broken up with Candy. Dazzler's solo happens between Champions and Defenders, and in the champions Candy was never mentioned so the author likely went with that. Or so I though.
But.
Checking the dates of Candy's appearances and crossing them with Dazzler's solo, it seems Warren was indeed cheating Candy with Alison!

- September & December 1981. Candy was seen (in relation to Warren, obvs) in Uncanny X-Men #146 and Avengers #214.
- March 1982. Dazzler #17 (the one with Warren and Alison kissing on the cover). Don't remember if he showed up before, but that is the issue when the romance starts.
- January 1983. Uncanny X-Men #169 happens. Warren (temporarily leaves Dazzler's side?) is at home, where he lives with Candy, and is kidnapped by Callisto.
- (8th) March 1983. Uncanny X-Men #169, Storm frees Warren.
- (22nd) March 1983. Warren's is back in Dazzler's solo (Dazzler #27).
- May 1983. His tenure in Alison's solo ends with Dazzler #28.
- August 1983. Warren pops up in the Defenders.
- October 1983. Candy pops up in Defenders.
I should check if something about his romance status is mentioned in Defenders but, unless it's specified they had broken up twice in the last (editorial) months... We found the reason why Candy accused Warren of philandering around: he forgave him for courting Alison Blaire the Dazzler! LOL!
Edit: checked. Warren brought Candy with him to visit the Drake's, so I'd say they were very seriously an item at that point. When they leave the Drakes, Candy mentions that they return to the penthouse to catch some sleep.

Warren in Dazzler's solo wasn't a stalker in the very negative connotation of the word we use today. He was mostly a too much insistent suitor. Something that in old movies is shown to be something positive (a man who insists to overcome the girl "fake" initial reluctance - this was how it was meant to be read a male character that acted this way). Besides the behaviour itself, which is cringe (to say the least), it didn't feel right for someone like Warren to act that way - especially the Warren pre-XFactor? He's not the male who would insist if a woman don't fall for his charm, I think he would be that kind of arrogant man that would immediately stop pursuing someone who didn't immediately flirt back - but that's my headcanon, more than canon confirming this. And the more I try to think about it, there more it would make sense for someone rich and handsome to expect any woman to fall for him, and get stubbornlu fixated to the one who doesn't.
Still, he was unbereable to read, IMHO.

You know... might be my hardcore Warren/Betsy speaking, but I hope that it isn't Warren the one "who will fall in love", as per X-Factor's solicit. I don't want him to be involved with anyone at the moment. He deserves some spotlight on his own, without having to share with a partner.
Also, I couldn't find any woman that would work with him ATM.
He's free to fool around (he should give a ring to Black Cat, if she's not currently spoken for: she's been waiting since poker night!), but I don't want a romance for him.

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Felicia has a girlfriend at the moment, though she'll probably disappear as soon as the current writers run ends.