Spider-Man character growth vs. staying in high school and Joe Quesada

[Lee]

I don't think Peter should have the same girlfriend for 10 years, so that sounds fine to me. 3-7 years would be good though.

[godisawesome]

Unsurprisingly, it reveals that Tim Drake's age doesn't make sense when the cumulative references to the passage of time are put under a microscope. DC fudged it for the sake of what best served the role of the character, which was the right call.

Tim Drake's had serious issues keeping his audience interested since the New 52 started over a decade ago, and they haven't really improved with the latest attempt to put him back in his "classic" status quo; fudging his age hasn't been a help at all in that regard, and is probably actually grouped in with the problems he's had. His last real solo success was in a series where Fabian Nicieza had him graduate into Red Robin pre-New 52, and FabNic wanted to officially declare him 19, and got told "no"... shortly before the character and his entire generation got wrecked by editorial trying to dictate audience reactions and fine-tune them to what marketing-think regraded as safe - along with the generation ahead of them in the original Titans getting manhandled into limbo, and all for a complete failed attempt to make the Justice League look younger.

Tim's a *bad* character to use to argue in favor of editorially mandated status quos.

This.

Peter is somewhere in his late 20's/early 30's and he's not getting any younger. The question is, does he get to be a married and/or professionally successful 30 year old, or a perpetually single romantically (and financially) unlucky 30 year old.



That's the thing...in a world where you can have endless avenues for a teenage high-school Peter in alternate continuities, alternate timelines, adaptations and what-not, I don't get the insistence on 616 Peter being perpetually young and single forever.

Spider-Man (or any other character) as a franchise/IP and even as a pop-cultural icon, is much bigger than 616 Peter.

About the only thing that makes 616 Peter special is that he's part of the original Marvel Universe that Stan Lee began back in the 60's, which was defined by continuity and heroes being able to progress and evolve over time. So why not stick to that spirit and let 616 Peter progress and evolve?

See, I actually like young Spider-Man - but 616 Spider-Man *isn't* young by any serious standard.

It's more that they insist he be "the same age as every other established hero" and single forever - AKA, the same status 90% of characters had in the silver age.

[Garlador]

So you believe the FCBD issue marked the end of the Peter-Shay ship?

We shall see...I believe there is more on the horizon!

That they even placed her in the issue says a lot.

Oh, I’m sure it’s not the end. I’m just saying it has no longterm future.

There’s a spot for her reserved next to Carlie, Lian, Carol, Michelle, the other Michelle…

[TinkerSpider]

I don’t think female characters should be treated as interchangeable doll-shaped objects swapped out at a certain expiration date but that’s just me. It also feels rather cynical and nihilistic to assume all relationships must have an expiration date and seems to go against how humans form and nurture relationships in real life but again that’s just me.

It also feels dismissive of the female characters to relegate them to just “Peter’s girlfriend.”

Which goes back to my earlier theory that the real objection to the marriage is having to write Mary Jane - or whoever Peter has a long committed relationship with - as an actual human character with her own agency, her own life, her own goals. You can’t just make her an inanimate prize to be won or a girl-shaped toy to be snatched out of Peter’s crib to make him cry because she becomes the deuteragonist of the book. The discussion around “youth” feels more and more like a theatrical smokescreen.

[wleakr]

Oh, I’m sure it’s not the end. I’m just saying it has no longterm future.

There’s a spot for her reserved next to Carlie, Lian, Carol, Michelle, the other Michelle…

I'm here for a good time, not a long time!

And none of the others got the Anna Watson seal of approval! Fingers crossed....

[Lifetap]

I don’t think female characters should be treated as interchangeable doll-shaped objects swapped out at a certain expiration date but that’s just me. It also feels rather cynical and nihilistic to assume all relationships must have an expiration date and seems to go against how humans form and nurture relationships in real life but again that’s just me.

Also a cycling of girlfriends would also age the character, which is something that a lot of people seem to be against. If you want to keep Peter frozen at a certain age you would either need one love interest or no love interest in my opinion. If you just between love interests then suddenly how long Peter was with X character starts to find a way into the story and now you back to aging up the character or conceding that Peter is seeing multiple people at the same time.

[wleakr]

Also a cycling of girlfriends would also age the character, which is something that a lot of people seem to be against. If you want to keep Peter frozen at a certain age you would either need one love interest or no love interest in my opinion. If you just between love interests then suddenly how long Peter was with X character starts to find a way into the story and now you back to aging up the character or conceding that Peter is seeing multiple people at the same time.

Isn't it amazing how we try to make sense of fictional characters and the universe they live in???

[TinkerSpider]

Also a cycling of girlfriends would also age the character, which is something that a lot of people seem to be against. If you want to keep Peter frozen at a certain age you would either need one love interest or no love interest in my opinion. If you just between love interests then suddenly how long Peter was with X character starts to find a way into the story and now you back to aging up the character or conceding that Peter is seeing multiple people at the same time.

And it’s boring.

First, in an era of cell phones, having Peter duck out on a date or miss a date without explanation just shouldn’t wash. It’s far less forgivable now.

Second, note how no one here talked about the FCBD issue when it came out? And it got very little traction on social media and elsewhere?

It’s been there, done that, here we go again with a roll of the eyes. Stan was spoofing Peter running out on dates in ASM 43, when he has MJ turn the tables and she’s the one suggesting to Peter that they go see the Rhino rampage. Not to mention we just had Michelle Again stomp off angry only a few issues ago. I’m yawning just typing this.

Isn't it amazing how we try to make sense of fictional characters and the universe they live in???

Pretty sure that’s called the act of reading and it’s how humans have used and told stories since before cave paintings existed!

[Daibhidh]

Has teenaged Peter Parker ever endured? The longest a series with teenaged Peter Parker has managed was the original Ultimate comic, and his run in that ended with him being killed off. Peter married to MJ lasted better than teenaged Peter has ever done.

[Lee]

Has teenaged Peter Parker ever endured? The longest a series with teenaged Peter Parker has managed was the original Ultimate comic, and his run in that ended with him being killed off. Peter married to MJ lasted better than teenaged Peter has ever done.

I don't think it was ever clear in Amazing Spider-Man when Peter celebrated his 20th birthday, but he was a teenager for the most foundational stories, the bedrock of the series.

[TinkerSpider]

Has teenaged Peter Parker ever endured? The longest a series with teenaged Peter Parker has managed was the original Ultimate comic, and his run in that ended with him being killed off. Peter married to MJ lasted better than teenaged Peter has ever done.

No. Teenage Peter transitioned to adult Peter in ASM, as Stan Lee intended when he named the character. So he didn’t endure.

Adaptions with a teenage Peter either get cancelled, transition him to be an adult, or kill him. Because that’s how life works. No one stays a teen forever and that’s true for characters who are meant to be three dimensional and learning and growing. There is no dramatic serial franchise where a teen character doesn’t meet the fates lists above. Only Peter Pan gets to stay forever young, and it’s not positioned as a positive in that tale.

[bat39]

See, I actually like young Spider-Man - but 616 Spider-Man *isn't* young by any serious standard.

It's more that they insist he be "the same age as every other established hero" and single forever - AKA, the same status 90% of characters had in the silver age.

This is tied to their thought process that 'young' = single/unmarried. The same thought process that DC had with the New 52.

Of course, he has to be pushing 30 (if not past it), for the Marvel sliding timescale to make a lick of sense. Barring a reboot, that's how it'll be for 616 Peter.

No. Teenage Peter transitioned to adult Peter in ASM, as Stan Lee intended when he named the character. So he didn’t endure.

Adaptions with a teenage Peter either get cancelled, transition him to be an adult, or kill him. Because that’s how life works. No one stays a teen forever and that’s true for characters who are meant to be three dimensional and learning and growing. There is no dramatic serial franchise where a teen character doesn’t meant the fates lists above. Only Peter Pan gets to stay forever young, and it’s not positioned as a positive in that tale.

This is why post-college Peter, nebulously in his 20's/early 30's, is the status quo that Marvel defaults to for 616, because it doesn't have a built-in expiry date in a shared universe where time is supposed to be moving forwards, even if only at a slower rate.

[Garlador]

I don't think it was ever clear in Amazing Spider-Man when Peter celebrated his 20th birthday, but he was a teenager for the most foundational stories, the bedrock of the series.

Gwen was revealed to be 20 years old - and just shy of her next birthday - at the time of her death per Spectacular Spider-Man #101. Peter was her age so he’s been at least in his 20s since the mid-to-late-stages of their relationship.

I’d argue he was only a teenager for ONE truly groundbreaking story early on, and that was his first outing as Spider-Man and Uncle Ben’s death. He may have been 18-19 when Captain Stacy died, but I’d have to check the timeline.

[Mister Mets]

Has teenaged Peter Parker ever endured? The longest a series with teenaged Peter Parker has managed was the original Ultimate comic, and his run in that ended with him being killed off. Peter married to MJ lasted better than teenaged Peter has ever done.

The gap between the marriage and the retcon that the Peter Parker who got married was a clone was shorter than the gap between Ultimate Peter's intro and his death (he did get better.)

I don’t think female characters should be treated as interchangeable doll-shaped objects swapped out at a certain expiration date but that’s just me. It also feels rather cynical and nihilistic to assume all relationships must have an expiration date and seems to go against how humans form and nurture relationships in real life but again that’s just me.

It also feels dismissive of the female characters to relegate them to just “Peter’s girlfriend.”

Which goes back to my earlier theory that the real objection to the marriage is having to write Mary Jane - or whoever Peter has a long committed relationship with - as an actual human character with her own agency, her own life, her own goals. You can’t just make her an inanimate prize to be won or a girl-shaped toy to be snatched out of Peter’s crib to make him cry because she becomes the deuteragonist of the book. The discussion around “youth” feels more and more like a theatrical smokescreen.

I don't think fans who prefer a single Peter Parker feel that way, and we could just as easily go after the motives of the fans of the marriage who want Peter married to a hot celebrity (I know it's more complicated than that; I'm using it as an example of a bad faith argument.)

Apart from the disappearance of Mrs Watson, the Sherlock Holmes stories are level two. You'd have the Looney Tunes approach if The League of Red-headed Men started with Holmes and Watson working as a pair of lumberjacks and ended with Watson eloping with the local lady of negotiable affection, the next story started with them both single and not lumberjacks in 221B Baker Street and ended with Holmes' death, and the next story started with Holmes alive again without any explanation of how he survived.

It's a level of continuity almost entirely found in comedy, though the James Bond films prior to Daniel Craig verged on it, in that all but one of the films end with Bond sailing off into the sunset with that film's love interest in a way that kind of looks like a happily ever after.

Then we have several layers of continutiy.

There's cartoons where continuity can change radically from adventure to adventure. Myth operated the same way.

The Sherlock Holmes stories had a different approach, where continuity is consistent and on rare ocassions, they'll reference an earlier adventure. This was pretty common in TV and comics (Many golden age comics were like that.)

Then we've more complex stories with ongoing subplots, where there's an expectation that things can be accessible to new readers/ viewers.

The final level is where you're expected to start the story in the beginning, be it the first episode of the first season or the first chapter of the first book. That would be the Game of Thrones model.

The Spider-Man comics generally exist in the third level.

There may be a compromise where readers are generally expected to join at a particular point (Hickman's Avengers doesn't require you to read the earlier stories, but it's best to read the entire run from start to finish.)

[Kevinroc]

Gwen was stayed to be 20 years old - and just shy of her next birthday - in Spectacular Spider-Man #101. Peter was her age so he’s been at least in his 20s since the mid-to-late-stages of their relationship.

I’d argue he was only a teenager for ONE truly groundbreaking story early on, and that was his first outing as Spider-Man and Uncle Ben’s death. He may have been 18-19 when Captain Stacy died, but I’d have to check the timeline.

Peter was 18 during the Master Planner saga (also known as "If this be my destiny...!"). That story explicitly starts on Peter's first day at College.