Spider-Man character growth vs. staying in high school and Joe Quesada

[wleakr]

Aside from TV shows, which can last multiple seasons across a period of years and therefore growth in the long term has to be considered as well.

I would consider tv shows along the lines of "medium" term.

I agree you can have quite a bit of growth, but even if that show last 10 seasons, you know it will come to an end.

[wleakr]

The original Super Mario Bros. was released in 1985. Mario has been fighting (or go-kart racing, playing tennis with, etc.) Bowser for almost 40 years now.

I'm gonna defer to your knowledge on that...I'm not big on video game characters.

I'm not sure if Mario's exploits equates to growth for that character, but again, I don't know.

Did he marry the princess yet???

I did play Super Mario on the old NES and a few other games on the Super Nintendo. After that, I lost touch with that character until viewing the recent movie with my kids. And surprisingly, he felt kinda like I remember him from back then!

[wleakr]

That wasn’t my point.

My point is that this insistence that Peter be in high school is relatively recent and very far from a constant.

Oh, I know better than to tackle any of your points! I don't want to get caught up in the "you should know better than that" fallacy.

That comment was in response to the Huntsman.

But, I do like the high school stuff, which is probably why Ultimate resonated with me the first time around.

[Kevinroc]

I'm gonna defer to your knowledge on that...I'm not big on video game characters.

I'm not sure if Mario's exploits equates to growth for that character, but again, I don't know.

Did he marry the princess yet???

I did play Super Mario on the old NES and a few other games on the Super Nintendo. After that, I lost touch with that character until viewing the recent movie with my kids. And surprisingly, he felt kinda like I remember him from back then!

Mario games aren't really built for story and continuity (except for some of the RPGs, I guess). Mario's relationship with Princess Peach is often vague and sometimes seemingly contradictory. But as I said, Mario games aren't really built for that. It's more of a continuity-light franchise. Characters pop up in the main games and then become regulars in the spin-offs (or get spin-offs of their own if they're popular enough. Franchise mainstays like Luigi, Princess Peach, Yoshi, and Wario have all headlined their own spin-off games at this point).

This is different from how Marvel built their brand which had an emphasis on continuity. Trying to argue that Spider-Man shouldn't be built off its own history is going against how the brand was built up in the first place.

[Garlador]

Mario games aren't really built for story and continuity (except for some of the RPGs, I guess). Mario's relationship with Princess Peach is often vague and sometimes seemingly contradictory. But as I said, Mario games aren't really built for that. It's more of a continuity-light franchise. Characters pop up in the main games and then become regulars in the spin-offs (or get spin-offs of their own if they're popular enough. Franchise mainstays like Luigi, Princess Peach, Yoshi, and Wario have all headlined their own spin-off games at this point).

This is different from how Marvel built their brand which had an emphasis on continuity. Trying to argue that Spider-Man shouldn't be built off its own history is going against how the brand was built up in the first place.

Echoing this, Mario’s creators have routinely DE-emphasized story. Shigeru Miyamoto actually stepped it and demanded Super Mario Galaxy 2 have less story than the first. Same for the Paper Mario series. They’ve stated the reason Mario and Bowser fight in one game then go play tennis on the next is because they view them as mere performers playing the roles (Mario 3’s entire game is a stage play, for instance).

That’s a far cry from a narrative-driven medium like comics sold on the promise of continuity and development.

[Konnik92]

Marvel has the choice to freeze him at that age, or age him into his 30s. Then his 40s. Then his 50s. And so on. They've chosen to freeze him in his 20s.

Expect that there's one problem I constantly see and others either don't see or refuses to acknowledge - Spider-Man is a part of the Marvel Universe. He interracts with the characters from the other titles (either they are in his titles or he is in theirs). You cannot have him "frozen" at aspecific age like he's in "The Simpsons", while the rest of the heroes/villians/civilians get to progress their characters - maturing, becoming adults, having families of their own, gaining wisdom, etc. Either everyone stays the same or everyone moves on and progresses their characters. You cannot both have your cake and eat it.

[MisterTorgo]

Expect that there's one problem I constantly see and others either don't see or refuses to acknowledge - Spider-Man is a part of the Marvel Universe. He interracts with the characters from the other titles (either they are in his titles or he is in theirs). You cannot have him "frozen" at aspecific age like he's in "The Simpsons", while the rest of the heroes/villians/civilians get to progress their characters - maturing, becoming adults, having families of their own, gaining wisdom, etc. Either everyone stays the same or everyone moves on and progresses their characters. You cannot both have your cake and eat it.

Agreed. This is one of the reasons why the perpetually-single-forever-young Peter made more sense to me as an alternate universe and not in the 616. It's not just stagnant storytelling but in a cohesive universe, that stagnation ripples across to other characters and causes other problems like dominos.

[Lee]

Expect that there's one problem I constantly see and others either don't see or refuses to acknowledge - Spider-Man is a part of the Marvel Universe. He interracts with the characters from the other titles (either they are in his titles or he is in theirs). You cannot have him "frozen" at aspecific age like he's in "The Simpsons", while the rest of the heroes/villians/civilians get to progress their characters - maturing, becoming adults, having families of their own, gaining wisdom, etc. Either everyone stays the same or everyone moves on and progresses their characters. You cannot both have your cake and eat it.

I don't think Marvel wants to age Kamala Khan and Miles Morales into their 20s, so it's moot.

Beyond that, they cheat, and as long as it's not too egregious they get away with it. The time skips before and after Hickman's Secret Wars, Spider-Woman's pregnancy, and so on, haven't had any impact on Peter's age.

I'm reminded of this old blog post where someone tries to make sense of Tim Drake's age: https://therealbatmanchronologyproje...2/modern-ages/

Unsurprisingly, it reveals that Tim Drake's age doesn't make sense when the cumulative references to the passage of time are put under a microscope. DC fudged it for the sake of what best served the role of the character, which was the right call.

[Garlador]

I don't think Marvel wants to age Kamala Khan and Miles Morales into their 20s, so it's moot.

For now, and they’ve still aged too. Miles has been stated to have started as young as 14, and he’s most recently been said to be around 17, while Kamala started at 16 and Iman has talked about her getting to her next milestone of college. Progress is slow, but I do think they’ll hit their 20s.

Beyond that, they cheat, and as long as it's not too egregious they get away with it. The time skips before and after Hickman's Secret Wars, Spider-Woman's pregnancy, and so on, haven't had any impact on Peter's age.moot.

They sort of have. At the time of BND, Brevoort stated he was around 25. A few years back (and before multiple Wells timeskips) they said he was 28. I can cite both instances.

I'm reminded of this old blog post where someone tries to make sense of Tim Drake's age: https://therealbatmanchronologyproje...2/modern-ages/

Unsurprisingly, it reveals that Tim Drake's age doesn't make sense when the cumulative references to the passage of time are put under a microscope. DC fudged it for the sake of what best served the role of the character, which was the right call.

I give DC a LOT more leeway because they intentionally mess with reality and reboot their universes every so often, and then Frankenstein bits and pieces together again. The Wally Flash and Superman currently running around aren’t even from this current universe but the former reality and “meshed” into it, so they have memories of a whole different continuity than someone like Tim Drake does.

Marvel is more averse to this kind of reboot/reset/retooling on a universal scale, but after Secret Wars and Ultimate Invasion I’m starting to think they’ll be doing it more and more often to avoid the very problems of “aging” these characters, because they’re struggling to find that balance currently without hitting the giant universal retcon button again. Even One More Day was in effect just a lazy and haphazard “magic reset” that tried to do a half-measure and we’ve been stuck there ever since.

[TinkerSpider]

For now, and theyÂ’ve still aged too. Miles has been stated to have started as young as 14, and heÂ’s most recently been said to be around 17, while Kamala started at 16 and Iman has talked about her getting to her next milestone of college. Progress is slow, but I do think theyÂ’ll hit their 20s.

It looks like Kamala is going to be living away from her parents in NYC in the new NYX series which would be coding her as a young adult.

Miles started at 13 IIRC and is thinking about where to go to college now per Spectacular Spider-Men.

Closer to home, Normie Osborn is now depicted as 10 or so in Red Goblin. That’s an issue with the potential to world break and destroy verisimilitude if not acknowledged as Harry, Peter and Liz are the same age and Harry and Liz got married after college graduation and had Normie after they were married. So that puts everyone into their very late twenties/early thirties at a minimum.

I mean, if Ditko is the gold standard, then keeping Peter’s world grounded and realistic and “the world outside your window” should be the prevailing attitude, not “anything goes lol.”

But the way ASM is going, Normie and Peter will be the same physical age in a decade or so real time. (Post OMD Peter and Normie already apparently share close to the same mental age IMO).

I give DC a LOT more leeway because they intentionally mess with reality and reboot their universes every so often, and then Frankenstein bits and pieces together again. The Wally Flash and Superman currently running around aren’t even from this current universe but the former reality and “meshed” into it, so they have memories of a whole different continuity than someone like Tim Drake does.

I thought Marvel likes to brag “we got our continuity right the first time.” I agree DC doesn’t work as an analogue.

Marvel is more averse to this kind of reboot/reset/retooling on a universal scale, but after Secret Wars and Ultimate Invasion I’m starting to think they’ll be doing it more and more often to avoid the very problems of “aging” these characters, because they’re struggling to find that balance currently without hitting the giant universal retcon button again. Even One More Day was in effect just a lazy and haphazard “magic reset” that tried to do a half-measure and we’ve been stuck there ever since.

Marvel seems to have a “have our cake and eat it, too” attitude about continuity that is increasingly becoming unsustainable.

I am very curious to see how X-fans are going to react to the X-books launch after Krakoa, especially if the same BND attitude toward past continuity and characterization is applied.

[bat39]

Expect that there's one problem I constantly see and others either don't see or refuses to acknowledge - Spider-Man is a part of the Marvel Universe. He interracts with the characters from the other titles (either they are in his titles or he is in theirs). You cannot have him "frozen" at aspecific age like he's in "The Simpsons", while the rest of the heroes/villians/civilians get to progress their characters - maturing, becoming adults, having families of their own, gaining wisdom, etc. Either everyone stays the same or everyone moves on and progresses their characters. You cannot both have your cake and eat it.

This.

Peter is somewhere in his late 20's/early 30's and he's not getting any younger. The question is, does he get to be a married and/or professionally successful 30 year old, or a perpetually single romantically (and financially) unlucky 30 year old.

Agreed. This is one of the reasons why the perpetually-single-forever-young Peter made more sense to me as an alternate universe and not in the 616. It's not just stagnant storytelling but in a cohesive universe, that stagnation ripples across to other characters and causes other problems like dominos.

That's the thing...in a world where you can have endless avenues for a teenage high-school Peter in alternate continuities, alternate timelines, adaptations and what-not, I don't get the insistence on 616 Peter being perpetually young and single forever.

Spider-Man (or any other character) as a franchise/IP and even as a pop-cultural icon, is much bigger than 616 Peter.

About the only thing that makes 616 Peter special is that he's part of the original Marvel Universe that Stan Lee began back in the 60's, which was defined by continuity and heroes being able to progress and evolve over time. So why not stick to that spirit and let 616 Peter progress and evolve?

[wleakr]

So why not stick to that spirit and let 616 Peter progress and evolve?

Maybe he can progress with Shay?

I like her!! Fingers crossed....

[Konnik92]

Maybe he can progress with Shay?

I like her!! Fingers crossed....

With the release of the FCBD issue on 4-th of May, we can be pretty much sure that this ship, just like the Titanic, has sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

[Garlador]

Maybe he can progress with Shay?

I like her!! Fingers crossed....

Yeah, I’m sure Mephisto is trembling in his boots over that one…

Seriously, though, echoing another writer, NO love interest can progress forward due to the mandate. You could introduce a character and try to develop her and their relationship over 10 years and you’ll just wind up in the Carlie Cooper dustbin lucky to make a cameo because Carlie Cooper doesn’t sell covers or Valentine’s cards or T-shirts or action figures like MJ can. If MJ at her best with over 50 years of history together and some of the most powerful writing from some of the best authors isn’t allowed to have a real lasting future with Peter, no one else will.

[wleakr]

With the release of the FCBD issue on 4-th of May, we can be pretty much sure that this ship, just like the Titanic, has sunk to the bottom of the ocean.

So you believe the FCBD issue marked the end of the Peter-Shay ship?

We shall see...I believe there is more on the horizon!

That they even placed her in the issue says a lot.