Spider-Man character growth vs. staying in high school and Joe Quesada

[Mister Mets]

A story is a story is a story.

Different drafts are different drafts. They are each a version of the same story.

An unfinished novel is an unfinished novel. It is an unfinished story.

A novel that is finished by another author, like Jane Austen's Sanditon, is its own story.

I'm confused by the need to categorize things that don't need to be categorized beyond their definition.


That's Marvel's definition. The AUs are part of the story.

A different discussion is whether Marvel needs to blow up this assertion, as it becomes more and more a canard instead of reality, but that's not the topic of the thread.



If it is referenced in the bigger story of Marvel 616, it counts.



I don't know what else to tell you other than that's how language works. That's how communication works.

Words have meanings and definitions within context.

We are long past the Tower of Babel days.

The insistence that language doesn't always work this way is quite puzzling to me.



Yes. This is a self-contained episode and per your summary it needs to come after Kamala is fridged; I would even call this arc the Dead Language aftermath and group it with Dead Language. I agree with your summation.

But nothing from this sticks. Kamala's fridging is swept under the rug after this. Peter's relationship with Felicia goes nowhere. There's no emotional through line.




I have degrees in this stuff. So no.

But perhaps your feelings are coloring your perspective, so you believe they must color others?



No...I'm very confused. It's clear in my real life example that the person has no idea about their real paternity.

Retcons are retroactive continuity. They are a new lens on information previously given to the reader.

The writer is irrelevant.



They are factual questions, but they are a strawman that do not pertain to the discussion at hand re: character growth in a serial format.

Since comic books provide the equivalent of "previously on" text boxes and expository dialogue in their own way, I'm also unclear why this matters.



That's never been in question. But it is not part of the Wells run by definition. Per the volume number/issue numbering, technically it's part of the Spencer era.


That's a very abritrary decision. Of course it counts. It sets the standard for the series and it also sets the audience's expectations for the stories to come.


And each episode BUILDS upon the previous episode, with an emotional through line for Peter and MJ.

"A story is a story is a story" is a tautology that doesn't get into what makes a story, or what specific comic books make up Spider-Man's story.

I'll admit I like ambiguity. I like working through things that aren't clear-cut. For example, when is an adaptation of Shakespeare a different story from another? I do think there are points at which different drafts of a story are different stories.

Language evolves. I'm always suspicious of efforts to police it.

We've established the Wells run is not like Silver Age DC in terms of issue to issue continuity.

In general, I trust people more if their comments on objective things don't align with their opinions. If someone says that a thing that they don't like is objectively bad, it seems convenient. If they say that a thing they like is objectively bad, that's interesting.

Personally I tried to be careful about comments about things that are objective because it's bad to be wrong on that. I get for some people it's more about signaling than anything else, and being taken seriously rather than literally (IE- the person yelling "Are you f***ing blind?" at the referee probably does not believe that the referee is actually blind.)

The Beyond era can definitely be seen as part of Wells' run, at least if you're analyzing it as a story. He worked on pivotal issues, and continues plot points from it.

There are still episodes in the alien costume saga, which also intersects with Spider-Man's other adventures at the same time in the satellite books.

Spider-family ongoings are distinctly missing from the Top 50 comics last month. Only USM, ASM and Spec Spider-Men, which is still in its very early days, plus the Edge of Spider-Verse mini, also an early number.

Compare that to the Bat family or the Superman family, each of which place multiple ongoing books on that list.



It's the more than 2:1 ratio of fans who are buying USM but not ASM.

Here are the Spider-family books in the Top 50.
1. Ultimate Spider-Man #4
4. Amazing Spider-Man #47
8. Amazing Spider-Man #48
17. Spectacular Spider-Men #2
20. Edge of Spider-Verse #3
27. Ultimate Spider-Man #1

Here are the super-family books in the Top 50.
21. Action Comics #1064 (House of Brainiac)
25. Superman #13 (House of Brainiac)
30. Batman and Superman Worlds Finest #26

Here are the bat-family books in the Top 50.
23. Nightwing #113 (It's interesting that this is the best-seller, likely an indication of Tom Taylor's prominence)
38. The Batman- First Knight #2
41. Detective Comics #1084
43. Batman #146 (Honestly, I haven't paid attention to the decline in Batman rankings- what the hell happened here?)
46. Batman and Robin #8

And there was also the World's Finest issue.

There are as many Spider-Man comics in the Top 50 as Batman comics, but the Spider-Man comics are higher-ranked, with four of the bat-books in the bottom quarter. And the Superman books have a crossover which bumps sales.

This comparison looks good for Marvel.

[Garlador]

Harry Potter's had seven books and two plays, so there isn't as much content.

That discussion did kind of peter out. I don't think the other guy and I have more to say on it.

At times, Marvel hopes readers don't notice.

Yeah, it seems there's a bit of a divide between the fans who prefer Spidey to be married.

Some of them want a particular status quo to be frozen. And there may be a divide between those who want Peter & MJ to have kids and those who don't.

There are some who want to see consistent growth, with the expectation it'll lead to things that are compelling.

One reason Ultimate Spider-Man is useful to that group is it shows a way to make a status quo we haven't seen interesting, where Peter & MJ are married with two kids too young to really be superheroes (even if the dynamic is a bit different with a Peter Parker who just became Spider-Man.)

You and I sort of talked about this before, and I find it interesting. You know I'm a strong advocate for the marriage, but that's because it's representative of the growth I loved in the Spider-Man comics PRE-marriage as well. It was, as Tom DeFalco expressed, a natural evolution of the character of Peter Parker given his history and for those that view "great responsibility" as a driving theme of the book. Fans were asking for Peter to get married and for there to be a "Spider-Man Jr" as early as the late 60s, per the letter columns I've come across. And there are indeed many who want Peter to jump into the role of parent - particularly how it was built up and denied at the culmination of the Clone Saga, the following love for Spider-Girl, and the resurgence of "Dad Peter" in Renew Your Vows, Ultimate Spider-Man, and the Spider-Verse films.

Admittedly, I'd like to see it too, but I'd equally be content just getting the marriage back for the time being. I'd call that, pardon the pun, "baby steps" towards a proper 616 parental Peter. The reality is 616 Peter Parker has been thinking about having kids and weighing the pros and cons of children for a very, VERY long time. My community brought up him talking about the dangers and risks of having a superhero kid with Mary Jane and seeking out Hank McCoy for professional advice as far back as 1990, and he's lamented the lack of kids as recently as Nick Spencer's run.


So it's important to him, and has remained important. However, I don't personally think we have to rush to get there, and Spidey Office is constantly telling us "you want a married Peter? Read Spider-Girl, or Renew Your Vows, or Ultimate Spider-Man!" when there are many who just want him married to Mary Jane, sans kids, for the time being. They haven't created a comic like that outside of flashback stories since OMD, to my knowledge.

I appreciate Ultimate Spider-Man taking things in a new, fresh direction. It's invigorating. I do think it's not a proper substitute for 616 Peter and MJ's history, especially not this early in the game. I love it on its own merits, but it's like asking for chocolate ice cream and getting vanilla ice cream. It's still ice cream, but I know my wife would still be disappointed if they were out of chocolate.

If they keep ageing Peter up then Miles will age up with him until he is no longer the young Spider-Man. If Miles is to remain young then all the other characters have to remain about the same age.

This may come as a shock and surprise, but the idea of Miles aging up and no longer being the "young Spider-Man" either?...

... 100% fine with that.

Stories that allow their heroes to grow and mature invariable cycle in new characters and stories to fill the void. What a more interesting and fascinating unknown future that is for me as a reader. Miles is already no longer the "youngest" Spider-hero, what with Spider-Boy running around.

I admit I have my biases, but as a kid who grew up on manga and the venerable Dragon Ball Z, it was a point of favor to watch Goku go from a child to a teen to an adult to a dad... but then to also see Gohan go from a child to a teenager to an adult to a dad as well. Gohan was the "Miles" of Dragon Ball, and fans were just as happy to see him develop and mature as his father before him.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

College is another good starting point but easier to resolve. I could see Peter dropping out as the cost of it would be too great.

Harry Potter's had seven books and two plays, so there isn't as much content.

I know, its just a preference. Youth is temporary so often i click with stories where a character moves forward than stays stagnant.

that is for me as a reader. Miles is already no longer the "youngest" Spider-hero, what with Spider-Boy running around.

I admit I have my biases, but as a kid who grew up on manga and the venerable Dragon Ball Z, it was a point of favor to watch Goku go from a child to a teen to an adult to a dad... but then to also see Gohan go from a child to a teenager to an adult to a dad as well. Gohan was the "Miles" of Dragon Ball, and fans were just as happy to see him develop and mature as his father before him.

Im fine with Miles getting his own timeskip like boruto did in two blue vortex.

[Frontier]

Though characterization-wise I think Peter is more of a Gohan than a Goku.

[TinkerSpider]

"A story is a story is a story" is a tautology that doesn't get into what makes a story, or what specific comic books make up Spider-Man's story. ]

Words have meanings. "Story" has a definition: "a narrative, either true or fictitious, in prose or verse, designed to interest, amuse, or instruct the hearer or reader; tale."

I'll admit I like ambiguity. I like working through things that aren't clear-cut. For example, when is an adaptation of Shakespeare a different story from another?

One is an adaption of the other. They each stand on their own. There is no ambiguity.

I do think there are points at which different drafts of a story are different stories.

Each draft is its own draft and stands on its own.

Again, there is no ambiguity.

Language evolves. I'm always suspicious of efforts to police it.

The words we are using have not evolved to this extent.

You must really hate dictionaries . Yet they are very vital as otherwise, if we didn't understand what words mean, we couldn't have conversations. Then again, this is exhibit A of a conversation where one side continues to try and shift the goal posts of how language works arbritrarily.

In general, I trust people more if their comments on objective things don't align with their opinions. If someone says that a thing that they don't like is objectively bad, it seems convenient. If they say that a thing they like is objectively bad, that's interesting.

That's your arbitrary line in the sand, which appears to be more about wanting someone to be a contrarian for contrarian's sake than examining the substance of the arguments.

Personally I tried to be careful about comments about things that are objective because it's bad to be wrong on that. I get for some people it's more about signaling than anything else, and being taken seriously rather than literally (IE- the person yelling "Are you f***ing blind?" at the referee probably does not believe that the referee is actually blind.)

Once again, you are leaning into ad hominem logical fallacies instead of engaging in the argument, which once more says to me you can't refute the arguments.

The Beyond era can definitely be seen as part of Wells' run, at least if you're analyzing it as a story. He worked on pivotal issues, and continues plot points from it.

At the start of the conversation, I defined the terms I was using.

The Wells run starts with Vol. 6 ASM 1.

This is more shifting of the goal posts.

There are still episodes in the alien costume saga, which also intersects with Spider-Man's other adventures at the same time in the satellite books.

Again, episodes and episodic are two very different words with two different meanings.

The episodes in the Alien Costume Saga are serial, they are not episodic.

Here are the Spider-family books in the Top 50.
1. Ultimate Spider-Man #4
4. Amazing Spider-Man #47
8. Amazing Spider-Man #48
17. Spectacular Spider-Men #2
20. Edge of Spider-Verse #3
27. Ultimate Spider-Man #1

That is exactly what I said.

Here are the super-family books in the Top 50.
21. Action Comics #1064 (House of Brainiac)
25. Superman #13 (House of Brainiac)
30. Batman and Superman Worlds Finest #26

Here are the bat-family books in the Top 50.
23. Nightwing #113 (It's interesting that this is the best-seller, likely an indication of Tom Taylor's prominence)

No, it's a function of how the chart measures a calendar month and how long books have on the stands to chart.

38. The Batman- First Knight #2
41. Detective Comics #1084
43. Batman #146 (Honestly, I haven't paid attention to the decline in Batman rankings- what the hell happened here?)

See above. This is just one reason why taking the charts at face value as empirical data is wrong.

46. Batman and Robin #8

And there was also the World's Finest issue.

The metric I used was ONGOING titles.

ASM can't be counted twice, it is one ongoing.

There are as many Spider-Man comics in the Top 50 as Batman comics, but the Spider-Man comics are higher-ranked, with four of the bat-books in the bottom quarter. And the Superman books have a crossover which bumps sales.

Again, the chart is skewed by number of days on the shelves. Which is why USM's perfomance truly is outsized since it had fewer days to chart than other titles. Batman is going just fine.

This comparison looks good for Marvel.

It doesn't look that great for the Spider-office, when 616 Spider-man family can only put one ongoing with more than 6 issues in the top 50 (USM is edited by Wil Moss, Spec is still early days and riding a speculator early issue bump, and Edge is a miniseries.)

[Konnik92]

At times, Marvel hopes readers don't notice.

When it comes to Spider-Man, the ediotrial (specifically) not only "hope" the readers not to notice, but also just to sit there and take whatever awful decisions they give "thumbs up" for the future of the franchise with an open mouth. They take the readers for granted because as long as they put Spider-Man in there showing up, it will be enough despite the questionable story and interractions between characters after OMD (with the only exception of Spencer's run IMO). Reminds me of a quote a youtuber (forgot who he was) once said about the current gaming industry: "Don't ask questions - just consume product and then get excited for next product".

[Vegan]

When it comes to Spider-Man, the ediotrial (specifically) not only "hope" the readers not to notice, but also just to sit there and take whatever awful decisions they give "thumbs up" for the future of the franchise with an open mouth. They take the readers for granted because as long as they put Spider-Man in there showing up, it will be enough despite the questionable story and interractions between characters after OMD (with the only exception of Spencer's run IMO). Reminds me of a quote a youtuber (forgot who he was) once said about the current gaming industry: "Don't ask questions - just consume product and then get excited for next product".

90% sure that’s a Red Letter Media quote. Which has kind of trickled down into pretty much any media where the corporations expect to be able to shovel out slop and have customers thank them for it. So not a surprise that a gaming critic would use that quote. Sometimes I’m happy that I’m not as into video games as I used to be because lord do the big companies in that space treat their customers like trash