Spider-Man character growth vs. staying in high school and Joe Quesada

[bat39]

Even if we go with this very generous interpretation, then it's still very much a story that quite definitively concluded.


"I'm about to face the realities of the real world. There's NO TURNING BACK. Whatever's in store for me, at least it'll be NEW AND DIFFERENT - and heck - what's life all about if it doesn't have some adventure and uncertainty?"
"And so we close another chapter in the rather tumultuous life of Peter Parker as he moves on from college to ADULTHOOD!"

This was way back in 1978. It is beyond frustrating that the creative heads of Marvel keep trying to put this genie back in the bottle when it was so organically done away with over 46 years ago, back when Christopher Reeve first put on tights as Superman and the Bee Gees were #1 on the radio.

Took 16 years in real-time for Peter to go from being a 15-year old high-schooler to being a 22-year old college graduate.

And in the 46 years of real-time since, how long has passed in-universe and where has he got to now?

I guess marriage was the most significant milestone but that's gone. Being a high-school teacher was an interesting idea and that's gone. Being a highly successful professional scientist at Horizon Labs? Gone. Parker Industries? Gone.

If you think about it, Peter having left college is the last milestone, continuity-wise, that the series has never really been able to undo. I guess Marvel's ideal status quo, the clean slate they perpetually want to reset Peter to, is the panel above.

[Dan Slott]

Took 16 years in real-time for Peter to go from being a 15-year old high-schooler to being a 22-year old college graduate.

On that note...

Stan Lee said that if he knew how long the Spider-Man franchise was going to last, he never would have graduated him from high school when he did.

[TinkerSpider]

Peter Parker graduted high school in ASM 25, published in 1965.

According to Comichron and postal Statements of Ownership, the #2 best selling comic book in 1965 was Superboy. Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen was #4. Archie was #7.

If Stan and Martin Goodwin were interested only in staying power, conventional wisdom would seem to suggest keeping Peter Parker a stagnant teen character like the above titles. But they didn't. Because the genius of Spider-Man is that he was a human character, with human foilables who makes mistakes and learns from them, and not stagnant in contrast to the comics at the time.

Stan said in a 2005 interview with Roy Thomas when asked why Peter Parker was called Spider-Man and not Spider-Boy:

"You know, it's very interesting why I called him Spider-Man instead of Spider-Boy. It's something I've thought about quite a lot. I think probably because Superman was Superman, and somehow Spider-Boy would've sounded too immature. Too... not fully developed. Not enough of a super-hero. And I wanted our super-hero to be on a par with any other competing super-hero. So I felt I've gotta call him Spider-Man. Also, I had the idea that, if he succeeded in subsequent issues and in subsequent years, we would age him. And at some point he would be a man. And when he became an adult male, it would be silly to keep calling him Spider-Boy. So I guess I was just farsighted enough to think ahead and be wise enough to call him Spider-Man."

Noting that this thought process would have happened very early on as the character was named in AF 15.

Stan Lee also pushed for Peter Parker to be married in the 1980s, long after success was established. So if the idea is to follow what Stan wanted...

[Lee]

Took 16 years in real-time for Peter to go from being a 15-year old high-schooler to being a 22-year old college graduate.

And in the 46 years of real-time since, how long has passed in-universe and where has he got to now?

I guess marriage was the most significant milestone but that's gone. Being a high-school teacher was an interesting idea and that's gone. Being a highly successful professional scientist at Horizon Labs? Gone. Parker Industries? Gone.

If you think about it, Peter having left college is the last milestone, continuity-wise, that the series has never really been able to undo. I guess Marvel's ideal status quo, the clean slate they perpetually want to reset Peter to, is the panel above.

It's a bell that can't really be un-rung. But they can return to the graduate school setting at any time, which they have done more than once. It's a shame they haven't done more with it.

There's a difference between a story having a teenage protagonist or written with a teenage audience in mind and being about "the trials and tribulations of being a teenager." I don't think it's particularly common for fifteen year olds to have to worry about providing for their household or having a dependent. That's the point: Amazing Fantasy #15, in and of itself, is a story that forces Peter into adulthood by challenging him with adult responsibility (in contrast to his prior ordinary teenage life in which his most significant worry was being the unpopular kid at school.)

Also, in the context of the comic industry during the Silver Age, describing a book as "teen series" would speak to the story's maturity. As in, something not written solely for little children. But again that doesn't mean it's literally about being a teen.

Ditko felt the series, during his run, was about being a teenager. It informed many of his story telling decisions.

From the article I linked:

“The space capsule incident involving JJJ’s son may have been a legitimate way to introduce JJJ and his foolish yet interesting relationship with PP. But the story idea undercut the teenage context. It’s like having a high school football player playing in the Super Bowl.”

“Peter Parker, a teenager becoming a hero, had to learn how to be a hero. He wasn’t even like a rookie policeman or soldier with some experienced Sgt to train him, set him straight. Parker (Spider-Man) could make mistakes a hero like Captain America or Superman could never make. From grade school to college etc. Parker has to learn and grow up to be a hero.”

“Space aliens do not fit into a teenager’s world.”

Ditko’s own preference for drawing extended scenes of Peter and his supporting case in early Spider-Man tales drew criticism from Lee, who “…believed the point of a superhero (story) was to show the costumed hero in action” and felt that Ditko’s storytelling was restricting the amount of action that readers expected. Ditko appreciated this perspective “…up to a point”, but felt his emphasis on personal, everyday elements made the strip a stronger one:

“What is the point of doing a teenage hero if his regular teenage personality, his home life, school environment, etc, is to be just a brief (few panels) interruption between the hero and villain battles?”

“I had the idea we establish a real romance between Betty Brant and Peter Parker and then have her die in some kind of accident – nothing criminal, just the kind of unfortunate tragedy that happens in real life.”

—Steve Ditko, A Mini-History 8 ‘Others, Outsiders (OOs): Complainers and Complaints Against Betty Brant’ The Comics Vol 14 No 2 February 2003 the newsletter of Robin Snyder.

This time it was Lee’s vision of the strip that prevailed. He rejected the suggestion, convincing Ditko that such a development would be detrimental to the strip’s integrity in the longer run:

“Stan rightly believed that (Betty’s) death would cast a negative pall over (Peter and Spider-Man). They would lose their light-hearted approach to (J.Jonah Jameson)., to action, to life. The nature of (Spider-Man) was a light-hearted form of entertainment, (Peter’s) problems were of no real crises. (He) held his own with his classmates, won more times than he lost with the feuding JJJ, and Aunt May was a source of courage and inspiration, living with health problems and the lone responsibility of bringing up her nephew. Whatever the problems with (Peter and Spider-Man), the feature wasn’t a downer.”

“The death of BB would have introduced and sustained a heavy negative emotional baggage similar to Captain America’s continually mourning, self-pitying stance over the 20-plus years earlier death of his teenage partner Bucky.

There could be no going back to the “fun and games” as if BB had never existed, never meant anything important to PP’s life. A teenage feature should show a more benevolent view of life and existence. It should show a hope of being able to grow up in a better world and that one should be actively striving for it.”

[Garlador]

On that note...

Stan Lee said that if he knew how long the Spider-Man franchise was going to last, he never would have graduated him from high school when he did.

If we’re playing the “Stan said this” game, Stan also said “it was always our intentions that Peter get married” and this whole exchange when a fan asked if he wanted Peter & MJ married:

“Stan said that it was up to “Marvel’s entire editor,” and right then, right there in front of all those people, Stan asked me if I would allow Spider-Man to get married.

Well, I may have been the “entire editor” but anything to do with the comics that Stan wanted I would have cheerfully done.

As Steve Englehart once said, referring to Marvel Comics writers “…Stan is the father of us all.” Honor thy father.

The audience cheered.”

And his thoughts on erasing it, circa 2009.

I agree with you, it wasn't typical of the Spider-Man we have known and I think they'll either going to get back to the normal Spider-Man and Mary Jane relationship or they've maybe already done it… they will, sooner or later they will, I'm sure of it.

I think the marriage was great. I think it needed that after all those years.

Marvel is often quite selective about which views Stan endorsed about the character should be honored.

It's a bell that can't really be un-rung. But they can return to the graduate school setting at any time, which they have done more than once. It's a shame they haven't done more with it.

I don’t really view graduate school as partial to “youth”. The average graduate school age is 33, per multiple sources, 22% being over 40, and nearly 10% being over the age of 50.

[Lee]

A 20-something in grad school reads younger than a 20-something with a full time job, a mortgage and a spouse. The latter has put down roots, the former hasn't.

[Mercwmouth12]

A 20-something in grad school reads younger than a 20-something with a full time job, a mortgage and a spouse. The latter has put down roots, the former hasn't.

Maybe 20-30 years ago. In todays environment it can be swapped as well

[Garlador]

A 20-something in grad school reads younger than a 20-something with a full time job, a mortgage and a spouse. The latter has put down roots, the former hasn't.

Then the argument isn’t about grad school. It’s about roots. Peter and MJ were both doing grad school throughout their marriage.

On the inverse, I felt that Peter being single yet both a teacher and a CEO read far older than he ever did as a young married guy struggling to pay the mortgage. He read “older” even as a teenager with a dependent he was paying hospital bills for, a far cry from some freespirited guy without heavy life burdens.

[Kevinroc]

I've made the argument before that BND Peter has massive "divorced guy" energy.

I still maintain that to be the case. Especially the current era. Wells Peter feels older than Spencer Peter.

[Mister Mets]

Took 16 years in real-time for Peter to go from being a 15-year old high-schooler to being a 22-year old college graduate.

And in the 46 years of real-time since, how long has passed in-universe and where has he got to now?

I guess marriage was the most significant milestone but that's gone. Being a high-school teacher was an interesting idea and that's gone. Being a highly successful professional scientist at Horizon Labs? Gone. Parker Industries? Gone.

If you think about it, Peter having left college is the last milestone, continuity-wise, that the series has never really been able to undo. I guess Marvel's ideal status quo, the clean slate they perpetually want to reset Peter to, is the panel above.

Pretty much.

A 20-something in grad school reads younger than a 20-something with a full time job, a mortgage and a spouse. The latter has put down roots, the former hasn't.

Fair point.

Then the argument isn’t about grad school. It’s about roots. Peter and MJ were both doing grad school throughout their marriage.

On the inverse, I felt that Peter being single yet both a teacher and a CEO read far older than he ever did as a young married guy struggling to pay the mortgage. He read “older” even as a teenager with a dependent he was paying hospital bills for, a far cry from some freespirited guy without heavy life burdens.

Burdens were always part of the series.

[Hurricane Billy]

A 20-something in grad school reads younger than a 20-something with a full time job, a mortgage and a spouse. The latter has put down roots, the former hasn't.

20 or 30 years ago, sure.

But in today's economy for Millennials and Zoomers? Not so much imo.

Maybe 20-30 years ago. In todays environment it can be swapped as well

Exactly.

I've made the argument before that BND Peter has massive "divorced guy" energy.

I still maintain that to be the case. Especially the current era. Wells Peter feels older than Spencer Peter.

Makes sense, BND Peter is a man who had a divorce and doesn't even remember he had that divorce.

[TinkerSpider]

A 20-something in grad school reads younger than a 20-something with a full time job, a mortgage and a spouse. The latter has put down roots, the former hasn't.

So a twenty something Peter who lived in a rented apartment and worked freelance for the Bugle, but who happens to be in love and in a committed relationship that has a piece of paper, therefore seems to fit your criteria for "feeling young." However, I will point out that there are single fifty year olds who work freelance and live in rented apartments, primarily as the housing market, especially in big cities, is very tight and expensive. I don't think anyone would say they feel "younger" than a married twenty-eight year old. Age is more than just a living situation and marital status.

[Spider-Tiger]

Ditko felt the series, during his run, was about being a teenager. It informed many of his story telling decisions.

From the article I linked:

In one of the many quotes you cited Ditko himself says:

"From grade school to college etc. Parker has to learn and grow up to be a hero.”

Which is precisely the point that I and others have been making. From AF 15 onward, the book is about the challenges and responsibilities that Peter faces that force him to grow up. Not remain in a state of arrested development.

[Lee]

Maybe 20-30 years ago. In todays environment it can be swapped as well

I don't think so. It's the difference between finding your place in the world and settling down.

I do think that the premise of a 20-something trying to find their place in the world is more viable in the 2020s than it would have been in previous decades, due to changes in societal expectations, the job market, the housing market, the economy, and so on.

Then the argument isn’t about grad school. It’s about roots. Peter and MJ were both doing grad school throughout their marriage.

They were married couple with a nice house in the suburbs. Peter had put down those roots.

The grad school setting is good because it puts Peter in a place of learning, and where he hasn't settled into a full-time long-term career. Being settled down in a marriage and being settled down in a nice house have the opposite effect.

On the inverse, I felt that Peter being single yet both a teacher and a CEO read far older than he ever did as a young married guy struggling to pay the mortgage.

Teacher and CEO would both have been bad permanent or long-term directions for the series.

In one of the many quotes you cited Ditko himself says: Which is precisely the point that I and others have been making. From AF 15 onward, the book is about the challenges and responsibilities that Peter faces that force him to grow up. Not remain in a state of arrested development.

Read it all in context. He said his tenure on the series was about Peter in the process of growing up and learning to be a hero, making mistakes that Superman or Captain America wouldn't.

The TV series The Wonder Years was about Kevin growing up. It wasn't about Kevin being a grown-up.

[TinkerSpider]

They were married couple with a nice house in the suburbs. Peter had put down those roots.

Peter and MJ lived in New York City. They were nowhere near the suburbs except for The Final Adventure during the Clone Saga which was very much a temporary status. They also lived in a variety of places, mostly due to money problems or other issues.

As for the nice house, the only actual house, as in freestanding single family dwelling, that Peter and MJ lived in was Aunt May's. Which Peter lived in as a teenager. So...

The grad school setting is good because it puts Peter in a place of learning, and where he hasn't settled into a full-time long-term career. Being settled down in a marriage and being settled down in a nice house have the opposite effect.

He was in grad school for a portion of the marriage. Did not live in a nice house unless you mean Aunt May's house (the condo in Bedford Towers was specifically meant to be temporary as a place to fall from grace from. Same for Avengers Tower). Never lived in the suburbs. Was far more of a professional success at Horizon Labs and Parker Industries than he ever was during the marriage.

As for marriage, teens and young adults enter into committted relationships and being with one's high school sweetheart/college sweetheart for decades is very much a reality for some and is not at all out of the realm of believeabilty. Getting married in one's twenties is also fairly common. Especially since Peter has been a serial monogamist since his inception. He was never dating both Betty or Liz, or Gwen and MJ - that's bad mandela effect nostalgia for something that never existed. Peter long talked about wanting to get married before he actually did so.

Teacher and CEO would both have been bad permanent or long-term directions for the series.

Good thing those are just jobs that can be changed then. I am bemused by the idea that a character, once established in a career, can't ever change it.

Read it all in context. He said his tenure on the series was about Peter in the process of growing up and learning to be a hero, making mistakes that Superman or Captain America wouldn't.

In The Complete Four-Page Series And Other Essays (Ditko Complains), in the essay “Why I Quit S-M," Steve Ditko writes:

"When doing S-M (Spider-Man), DS (Doctor Strange), I always wrote down any ideas that came to me about the supporting characters, any possible, usable story idea.

"At some point after they had been dialogued and lettered, I got my original, penciled pages back and inked them.

"That became our working system on S-M and DS.

"As I was a freelancer, Stan could, at any time, just have Sol tell me I was OFF S-M, OUT of Marvel.

"I remember I once asked Flo to ask Stan if he still wanted P. Parker to graduate from high school and go to college.

"We had discussed different ideas, potentials, for S-M when we collaborated: fans had complained about a too ugly, too old Aunt May so some beautifying, even dying or killing her, was considered; Peter Parker as a reporter ala Clark Kent on JJJ's paper; graduating was one idea.

"At some point, Flo said, 'Yes.'

"Stan still chose not to see me or to discuss anything about S-M, DS or anything else."

The TV series The Wonder Years was about Kevin growing up. It wasn't about Kevin being a grown-up.

The Wonder Years was cancelled after 5 years.

Serial dramas about teens either transition the teens to adults (which happened in the last episode), kill the teens off, or don't last - or the proprety isn't a serial drama and is instead an epsiodic cartoon or situational comedy like Archie. I suppose a case could also be made for The Hardy Boys/Nancy Drew, but those are situational mysteries with stock teen detective characters. Nancy, Frank and Joe doen't learn, don't grow, aren't affected from one mystery to another. They're two-dimensional static characters.

I agree Peter Parker is static now. I agree conventional wisdom would seem to dictate that he should be static for longevity's sakes.

But he wasn't designed to be static. And he became popular precisely because he wasn't static.

Again, among the most popular titles of 1965, the year Peter graduated high school, were #2 Superboy, #4 Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen, and #7 Archie.

Superboy sold an average of 672,681 copies per issue. Jimmy Olsen sold 554,931 copies per issue.

Where's that Superboy now? Don't seem to spot a Jimmy Olsen title on the shelves these days, either.

Seems the conventional wisdom - which Stan bucked - might still be wrong.