Is it time for DC to move away from "Everything is canon"

[HsssH]

My favorite example is Rebirth Ryan Choi and Pre-Flashpoint Ryan Choi being two different characters.

[bat39]

I think it is theoretically possible to have an amalgamated timeline that is broadly inclusive of as much past canon as possible. But there are some key details that need to be nailed down, even as other things remain vague - subject to reinterpretation by future writers/artists, not to mention the sliding timescale.

Take Superman for instance. Maybe it isn't crucial to nail down precisely when he wore X or Y costume. Or precisely how his first encounter with kryptonite went down. But when it comes to something fundamental like whether or not the Kents are dead or alive at any given point, or whether Kara is older than Clark/born on Krypton or younger than Clark/born on Argo City, you have to nail down some specifics.

Did Wonder Woman show up in Man's World for the first time in the present-day or during WW2? If the former, then was Steve Trevor part of her WW2 life or her present-day life? Or both, and if so, how?


And look, its perfectly fine to say that "everything is canon" in the sense that everything happened once upon a time somewhere in the Multiverse/Metaverse/Hypertime/whatever. But when it comes to the lived reality of the characters on Earth 0 or whatever the 'main' earth is now, there has to be at least a broadly consistent set of facts in place.

[Lightning Rider]

My favorite example is Rebirth Ryan Choi and Pre-Flashpoint Ryan Choi being two different characters.

What happened there?

[Will Evans]

Looks like Amanda Waller’s origin will be the next casualty

[Aahz]

I think it is theoretically possible to have an amalgamated timeline that is broadly inclusive of as much past canon as possible.

But there are cases where it simply doesn't work.

Look at Nightwing the Pre Crisis Run, the Tim Seeley run and the Tom Taylor Run had all Block Buster as a main villain, but each time they ignored the previous incarnation.

Or Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown, their pre flashpoint and new 52 origin stories happend at very different points in the timeline (and in case of the new 52 as part of events), you simply can't amalgam that without completely screwing up the overall time line of the Batman franchise.

[Stanlos]

Looks like Amanda Waller’s origin will be the next casualty

Hopefully the new origin will have less Reagan Era ...embellishments

[Lightning Rider]

But there are cases where it simply doesn't work.

Look at Nightwing the Pre Crisis Run, the Tim Seeley run and the Tom Taylor Run had all Block Buster as a main villain, but each time they ignored the previous incarnation.

Or Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown, their pre flashpoint and new 52 origin stories happend at very different points in the timeline (and in case of the new 52 as part of events), you simply can't amalgam that without completely screwing up the overall time line of the Batman franchise.

Choices have to be made. That doesn't mean they can't be made at all.

90% of continuity is more or less explainable without contradiction. That 10% can be erased or retold or ignored.

The "we lost 10 years" explanation was useful but not put to full use.

[Stanlos]

How did we get here????

[bat39]

But there are cases where it simply doesn't work.

Look at Nightwing the Pre Crisis Run, the Tim Seeley run and the Tom Taylor Run had all Block Buster as a main villain, but each time they ignored the previous incarnation.

Or Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown, their pre flashpoint and new 52 origin stories happend at very different points in the timeline (and in case of the new 52 as part of events), you simply can't amalgam that without completely screwing up the overall time line of the Batman franchise.

Precisely my point.

With some things, you have to make choices and nail down the specifics.

Choices have to be made. That doesn't mean they can't be made at all.

90% of continuity is more or less explainable without contradiction. That 10% can be erased or retold or ignored.

The "we lost 10 years" explanation was useful but not put to full use.

This.

Rebirth could have been a golden opportunity to clean it all up. But the resolution of Rebirth came in bits and pieces, and in the end, we just didn't know what the continuity was anymore. And then DC threw up their hands and said "everything is canon" or whatever.

[Psy-lock]

I'm fine with leaving some things up for interpretation, but readers absolutely should not be guessing whether Wonder Woman debuted in the WWII or modern day. Pick one or other. Otherwise, everyone becomes Donna Troy.

[HsssH]

What happened there?

Pre-Flashpoint Choi never actually met Ray before becoming Atom and was tricked into it by one of the Ray's villains. In Rebirth #1 he is Ray's assistant and becomes Atom after receiving the message from Ray that he is lost and needs help. And he obviously doesn't get killed by Deathstroke's Titans. So Rebirth #1 retcons All-New Atom ongoing (25 issues if I remember right) and all of Choi's guest appearances out of existence. It probably also retcons some of Ray's adventures as well, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
If I remember right it also retcons Identity Crisis or at least Jean's role in it. And I'm sure that lots of people would be happy about Identity Crisis being removed from continuity, but that story had big impact on Pre-Flashpoint universe so you are by proxy retconning lots of other stories as well.

Look at Nightwing the Pre Crisis Run, the Tim Seeley run and the Tom Taylor Run had all Block Buster as a main villain, but each time they ignored the previous incarnation.

I still remember that in Seeley's run Nightwing comes to Bludhaven the first time. Because Superman from another universe told him so.

First few months of Rebirth did a lot of weird things.

[Will Evans]

Pre-Flashpoint Choi never actually met Ray before becoming Atom and was tricked into it by one of the Ray's villains. In Rebirth #1 he is Ray's assistant and becomes Atom after receiving the message from Ray that he is lost and needs help. And he obviously doesn't get killed by Deathstroke's Titans. So Rebirth #1 retcons All-New Atom ongoing (25 issues if I remember right) and all of Choi's guest appearances out of existence. It probably also retcons some of Ray's adventures as well, but I'm not 100% sure on that.
If I remember right it also retcons Identity Crisis or at least Jean's role in it. And I'm sure that lots of people would be happy about Identity Crisis being removed from continuity, but that story had big impact on Pre-Flashpoint universe so you are by proxy retconning lots of other stories as well.



I still remember that in Seeley's run Nightwing comes to Bludhaven the first time. Because Superman from another universe told him so.

First few months of Rebirth did a lot of weird things.

Robin’s dad is still dead.
However Ralph and Sue are alive now. Presumably, Identity Crisis happened but Ralph and Sue are alive again.

[marhawkman]

I'm fine with leaving some things up for interpretation, but readers absolutely should not be guessing whether Wonder Woman debuted in the WWII or modern day. Pick one or other. Otherwise, everyone becomes Donna Troy.

Sooo much this... the basic framework of history being left up for interpretation is a TERRIBLE idea.

[Aahz]

Presumably, Identity Crisis happened but Ralph and Sue are alive again.

Don't know, there are currently often things referenced that contradict things that are also canon.

And there are a lot of characters running around that should be dead, but where DC seems to have simply forgotten that they died.

[Aahz]

I still remember that in Seeley's run Nightwing comes to Bludhaven the first time. Because Superman from another universe told him so.

And the really odd thing is that both Seeley#s and Taylor's run are still part of the same ongoing, which makes explaining it away even harder.