What If Ben Reilly remained Spider-Man?

[Mister Mets]

One problem with the speculation is that there are many ways things can go. It would be like to trying to imagine explaining Maximum Carnage to comics fans in a world where Secret Wars was never published.

One idea might be to have Peter and Ben alternate being Spider-Man. This lets Marvel have their cake and eat it too, and can be explained in-universe as a strategy for Peter and Ben to keep their identity secret. Two of the monthlies can focus on Peter, and two can focus on Ben. I don't know how long that would last, since it seems inevitable that the status quo would collapse. And then we'd likely have one of them taking a new identity. And it would probably be Ben. Although if Peter Parker could have a Scarlet Spider type identity, it could connect with readers.

A different way it could've gone would have been for Marvel to continue longer with Ben Reilly as Spider-Man. Maybe something would have connected with readers, but I'm not sure what that could be. The talent on Spider-Man was decent, but there was no one who blew up like Joe Mad. The decisions involving creative teams seemed doomed for failure, as if the editorial instincts were wrong for the moment. But maybe there's a world in which the Spider-Man comics were better and more popular with Ben Reilly as Spider-Man than the ones that were published (I am intimately familiar with that time period.) If the series kept chugging along with Ben Reilly as the lead, it's going to include new decisions which will be as hard to predict as explaining the pathway to Miles Morales, Spider-Gwen, Superior Spider-Man, Civil War and No Way Home to a fan in 1998.

[Lee]

If they had stuck to their guns with Ben Reilly being the original Spider-Man, they would have to have him reclaim the Peter Parker name and identity. Even before the super-hero movie boom, the general public knew that Spider-Man's secret identity was Peter Parker, not a blond-haired guy called Ben Reilly.

[boots]

If they had stuck to their guns with Ben Reilly being the original Spider-Man, they would have to have him reclaim the Peter Parker name and identity. Even before the super-hero movie boom, the general public knew that Spider-Man's secret identity was Peter Parker, not a blond-haired guy called Ben Reilly.

from a branding point, i can see this. in a scenario where "ben" permanently remains the one, true spidey he would eventually have to take back the original and recognisable elements.

or they would simply pull a hal jordan and return "spare peter parker" to the throne.

either scenario could be pulled off in a multitude of ways. i wouldn't put it past a creative team to revist the idea of somehow combining the characters into one person for'ex.

[Mister Mets]

from a branding point, i can see this. in a scenario where "ben" permanently remains the one, true spidey he would eventually have to take back the original and recognisable elements.

or they would simply pull a hal jordan and return "spare peter parker" to the throne.

either scenario could be pulled off in a multitude of ways. i wouldn't put it past a creative team to revist the idea of somehow combining the characters into one person for'ex.

It seems really complicated to swap Ben Reilly and Peter Parker, so that they would assume one another's identity.

In-universe, it would also lead to people in their social circles thinking MJ dumped her husband for his cousin, but that's also easier without a kid (because if Peter & Ben Reilly switch identities, and MJ has a kid, people will think Ben broke up a family while seducing his cousin's wife.)

If they had stuck to their guns with Ben Reilly being the original Spider-Man, they would have to have him reclaim the Peter Parker name and identity. Even before the super-hero movie boom, the general public knew that Spider-Man's secret identity was Peter Parker, not a blond-haired guy called Ben Reilly.

And they were going to go with the movies and various adaptations.

[boots]

It seems really complicated to swap Ben Reilly and Peter Parker, so that they would assume one another's identity.

it does. i don't think the writers would go that route. i also don't think i suggested it?

but if this is just a tangent on stuff that would be tricky/silly...then yup. there's a long list of those i'm sure.

[SturdyMike89]

From everything that I have read about the way that Marvel comics carried itself from about 1994 to 1998, it would have been an exercise in futility. You could not really get a good idea going at the time and long-range storytelling plans were changed at the drop of a dime sometimes with no warning to the creators. The best that could be hoped for was a solid run lasting until about 2000 when because of the videogame and upcoming movie Peter Parker would assume the role again.

[LordMikel]

If Marvel had been smart and really planned well, they could have had everything and made everyone happy.

Ben Reilly as single Spider-man.
Peter Parker as married Spider-man
Miles as teenage Spider-man.

[HypnoHustler]

How would it have affected the franchise if Ben Reilly remained the Sensational Spider-Man and replaced Peter?

I’ll say what I said last time this question was asked… even if the switch was successful (think Wally West) it probably would’ve reversed in time for the 2002 Raimi movie as they would want to go back to basics for the origin story.

[JTait]

It's an interesting question. The brief period with Ben as Spider-Man was pretty good and since Peter returned, Marvel have repeatedly tied themselves in knots trying to wriggle their way out of a status quo where Peter is married. Ben staying as Spider-Man would have enabled this, while avoiding ridiculous stories like OMD and the Mackie/Byrne era.

However, I can't imagine a situation where Peter Parker exists in the 616 MU as a civilian, so I imagine in the mid to long term this would have led to a situation with Ben as the mainstream Spider-Man in NYC, while a happily married Peter Parker is off crime-fighting somewhere else, possibly as the Scarlet Spider. Now that I've written it down, it doesn't actually sound too bad.

[Blanks]

Personally, If Ben had remained Spider-Man, I would not have stopped buying Spider-Man. PPSM issue 75 was the last issue I bought of Spider-Man until Brand New Day. That’s pretty much how long I gave up on the main Spider-Man book. But I get it; Marvel had to do what they felt they had to do. Still wish they didn’t kill Ben off though.

[bat39]

If they had stuck to their guns with Ben Reilly being the original Spider-Man, they would have to have him reclaim the Peter Parker name and identity. Even before the super-hero movie boom, the general public knew that Spider-Man's secret identity was Peter Parker, not a blond-haired guy called Ben Reilly.

Yeah, in the long run, you can't mess with the fundamentals of the character/franchise - especially not before a big push like the release of a blockbuster film.

DC realized this too with Superman in the mid-2010's...eventually, the Post-Crisis Clark and Lois had to be established as the 'real' Clark Kent and Lois Lane on Earth 0. They couldn't remain parallel universe doppelgangers 'Clark and Lois Smith' (or whatever) forever.

[Mister Mets]

it does. i don't think the writers would go that route. i also don't think i suggested it?

but if this is just a tangent on stuff that would be tricky/silly...then yup. there's a long list of those i'm sure.

I think I misread your point on how Marvel would have Ben Reilly take the trappings of Peter Parker.

And that got me thinking of tangents on how it could go.

Marvel killed off Ben Reilly, and revealed that Peter Parker was always Spider-Man.

There were conversations for a status quo where Ben Reilly and Peter Parker were both Spider-Man. While that's what I might have gone for as an editor, it's not a certain outcome.

Another option would be to write out Peter Parker, but that is going to result in a messy backstory. I was wondering if Ben and Peter could swap, or if Peter could be killed off, leaving Ben to adopt his identity, but then there's the dynamic of him raising another man's family while pretending to be that guy to the rest of the world (with the exception of MJ).

A final option would be a way to combine the two. Apparently they were considering time travel (so that Ben Reilly is revealed as a future version of Peter Parker sent back in time with incomplete memories.)

All of these tangents would have different receptions. And execution will matter.

Maybe there's a world in which DeFalco and JM Dematteis craft an excellent crossover on the time travel solution, and another where that same crossover fizzles because of last-minute changes.

The time travel thing might work with Heroes Return because there is a big event justifying someone with time-travel abilities manipulating Spider-Man in an epic plan. But Marvel wouldn't know that they'd do Heroes Return around the time they were coming up with the end of the Clone Saga. Maybe if they went with two Spider-Men plot, that could buy some time for Ben Reilly's return.

I think one problem is that Marvel didn't have the necessary long-term planning or the editorial instincts in place. That left the clone saga era vulnerable to last minute changes.

I know I'm speculating on things you weren't suggesting. I'm trying to figure out ways it could have gone, and a reality is that it could have gone in many different ways, which would branch out further.

[Mister Mets]

Thinking about this some more. So I'm mulling over things I've already written here.

Part of what makes this so messy is trying to think of decisions that people at Marvel could have made at this time. The company had major financial issues. The collectors market was cratering in a way that made it difficult for new readers to get into comics, and the trades market hadn't emerged yet. The new generation of star writers (Bendis, Millar, BKV, Brubaker, Geoff Johns) wasn't big enough to be considered potential Spider-Man writers yet, and the writer era hadn't started yet.

I'm familiar with the Life of Reilly summary of the Clone Saga, and reread the post Clone Saga comics recently (which is around when I started being a regular fan) so I may be taking this very literally, but I'm trying to consider the times Marvel could have make different decisions.

The big moment seemed to the Blood Brothers story.

Option 1: What Marvel Did
Marvel killed off Ben Reilly and baby May, revealed that Peter Parker was the real Spider-Man and then brought back Norman Osborn, as well as Doctor Octopus. They tried going for four monthly titles with their own identity (Spectacular Spider-Man was more psychological, Peter Parker Spider-Man was crime, Amazing Spider-Man was the core title, Sensational Spider-Man was goofier.) Dr Octopus and Aunt May come back. After two years, they relaunch the series, with Howard Mackie taking over Amazing Spider-Man and Peter Parker Spider-Man, while John Byrne tries to tell Spider-Man's origin in Chapter One and Webspinners basically guarantees anthology titles for the next five years. Tom DeFalco spins off a What If? into the MC2 Universe telling the stories of Spider-Girl. Mackie is eventually replaced by a star writer in JMS. Bendis tells stories of a teen Spider-Man in a new world and later brings the 616 Spidey to the Avengers. Civil War unmasks Spidey and One More Day sets back the status quo. New creative teams work on a thrice-monthly Amazing Spider-Man. Changes earlier can knock over the Jenga tower, and results are very different.

Option 2: Peter and Ben are both Spider-Man
Around "Blood Brothers" Marvel was planning to end the clone saga, but they kept it going for a few more months because they didn't want to take attention away from Heroes Reborn. I'd pitch a "have your cake and eat it too" solution where Ben Reilly and Peter both share duties as Spider-Man. Perhaps Amazing Spider-Man and Peter Parker Spider-Man cover Peter Parker while Spectacular Spider-Man and Sensational Spider-Man cover Ben Reilly.

I don't know what this means for Baby May or the returns of Norman Osborn and Doctor Octopus. I would have an exit hatch in the event this isn't compelling to readers or fans.

Option 3: Time Loop
Apparently Marvel seriously considered revealing that time travel will turn Peter Parker into Ben Reilly, and the story will end with the loop closing so that Peter Parker is sent back five years in time to become Ben Reilly.
I would keep this as an exit hatch for the two Spider-Men status quo with the idea that this could tie into a story that brings back the Avengers and Fantastic Four after Heroes Reborn, in the event that Marvel wants to go that route. Somebody in the near future will send Ben Reilly back in time so that he can help save the main Marvel heroes.
There are some pitfalls. The Spider-Man comics schedule would be based on when Marvel wants to go with Heroes Return, so it could lead to stories being rushed or the series spinning its wheels waiting to accommodate the other books.
This could be used to connect to Aunt May's return. Whatever made Ben Reilly forget that he was ever Peter Parker could be made to make Aunt May forget that Peter was Spider-Man, to retcon that when she turns up alive.
This could be used to write out Baby May. She's sent into another timeline and lives a full life. It won't exactly make Peter and MJ relatable.

Once this is over, it's an open question of whether Ben Reilly remains Spider-Man. Peter would have both of their memories. You lose the team-up aspect unless they bring him back. And time travel becomes a bigger part of the Spider-Man comics.

Option 4: Ben Reilly and Peter Parker swap places
To make the Spider-Man comics closer to what readers expect, Ben Reilly takes over again as Peter Parker for whatever reason. Peter pretends to be Ben, and goes off with MJ and their kid. In-universe, people in Peter's social circle will think MJ is a harlot who dumped Peter for his cousin, and he will be treated as if he has a kid being raised elsewhere, which doesn't seem the best fit.

Option 5: Peter dies, revealed as the clone
This is a variation of the above. Peter dies saving Ben, revealing himself to the clone. Ben takes over as Peter Parker, realizing he was always Peter. He stays with Mary Jane, initially platonically.
Does Baby May survive? If so, Peter's loved ones will think he really changed after becoming a father, in ways that make him seem more distant.
It could be an interesting sci-fi dynamic of a young man living someone else's life and making it work. I think it could be a compelling romance. But then what? It seems to lead to much more convoluted backstory for Peter and MJ as a seemingly normal married couple in their late 20s.

Option 6: Biff in Back to the Future Part 2
A clone saga fan armed with knowledge of the present goes back to the early 1990s. His eye for talent, instincts and independent wealth (from various investments and bets) get him a job in Marvel editorial, with complete freedom to run the Spider-Man comics.
He gets top writers like Warren Ellis, Brian Michael Bendis, Mark Millar and Dan Slott for the books, along with artists like Steve McNiven, JG Jones, Bryan Hitch, Ed McGuiness and John Cassady right at the moment when they got good, but before anyone else recognized their talents.
Under this scenario, maybe the Ben Reilly comics would be a hit and bigger than Peter Parker ever was.

[IamnotJudasTraveller]

Option 2: Peter and Ben are both Spider-Man
Around "Blood Brothers" Marvel was planning to end the clone saga, but they kept it going for a few more months because they didn't want to take attention away from Heroes Reborn. I'd pitch a "have your cake and eat it too" solution where Ben Reilly and Peter both share duties as Spider-Man. Perhaps Amazing Spider-Man and Peter Parker Spider-Man cover Peter Parker while Spectacular Spider-Man and Sensational Spider-Man cover Ben Reilly.

I don't know what this means for Baby May or the returns of Norman Osborn and Doctor Octopus. I would have an exit hatch in the event this isn't compelling to readers or fans.

This'd have been the "best case scenario" for many a fan back in the day, but the issue was that per Greenberg's words, it was more Marvel bureaucracy than anything else - Ben was deemed "too similar" to Peter in the powerset to consider having around. And this is also the same timeframe where a "Spider-verse" story was considered taboo, and Brevoort himself said that in hindsight, Budiansky was right to want to go through with such a story, so maybe Marvel wasn't thinking ahead with the audience?

Either way, Marvel was also bending their backs in many points over a single Peter Parker moreso than "a single Spider-Man", so while Ben Reilly could ALSO work as a single Peter Parker (in a way) it's not what the doctor had ordered for them then. But maybe you could argue that everyone was just so burnt out over the story not concluding they'd be happy to say "this is the status quo as is, let's just move on with it, we got a single Spider-Man out of it already" (they weren't getting their heart's desire regardless the way Clone Saga concluded, after all - Peter and MJ were still together). But if you're not going to so drastically reshuffle the decks, I see no reason for baby May not to stay (if something drastic has to happen, someone else down the line has to figure out - let's not kid ourselves, more often than not that's just what happens anyway. Venom's deal with Peter was good and dandy as far as allowing him to have his own book went, and then even Ben's OWN introduction was because writers were feeling sore over Peter just looking the other way, after all!). Likewise, you can just say Harry masterminded the whole thing, and you don't need Osbornson Normandyman (I always thought that's what Rekrap would call him) come back either.

Option 4: Ben Reilly and Peter Parker swap places
To make the Spider-Man comics closer to what readers expect, Ben Reilly takes over again as Peter Parker for whatever reason. Peter pretends to be Ben, and goes off with MJ and their kid. In-universe, people in Peter's social circle will think MJ is a harlot who dumped Peter for his cousin, and he will be treated as if he has a kid being raised elsewhere, which doesn't seem the best fit.

Since we do know they actually threw this idea around, I don't think they ever suggested just Peter and Ben outright swapping places, so much as something like Zdarsky did in Life Story. Ben takes over as Peter Parker, and Peter assumes a new ID in Portland with MJ and goes raise his family.

[boots]

I think one problem is that Marvel didn't have the necessary long-term planning or the editorial instincts in place. That left the clone saga era vulnerable to last minute changes.

I know I'm speculating on things you weren't suggesting. I'm trying to figure out ways it could have gone, and a reality is that it could have gone in many different ways, which would branch out further.

i'm all for some sensational speculation, mate... i was just clarifying that i didn't think that an identity swap was necessarily the way forward. execution matters though, as you say.

what's funny about the options you list is that even though at the time lot of them seemed too far fetched or off brand...these days? they're almost cute and mundane in comparison.

the postmodernist in me kinda loves option 6 if that was actually the story itself, rather than an irl tongue-in-cheek sitch.

i think (in hindsight) i like a combo of what @iamnotudastraveller's mention of how life story tackled it with defalco's eventual resolution from his clone saga redux mini: have ben take over the civilian ID of peter for however long that lasts until peter inevitably returns, the two of them burying the "who's the clone" bullshit forever, with ben going back on the road.

it leaves the door open for the occasional ben return and neither character is diminished and fandom can eat all the cake.

is it perfect? nope. is there a bit of in-universe story logic and consistency that needs a some massaging? sure. but i think we've all seen a lot of that just comes with the territory of telling a decades long story (maybe just me but i've become fine with harshly fitting retcons in my elderly years).

again. execution.