Kill the Justice League... as a D&D character

[The MunchKING]

Well, if you baleful polymorph Superman into a bunny, there are a number of things you could do from that point, to eliminate said super-bunny. I leave it to you

He still has superman's HP, so it's going to take a LOT of hitting to kill Superbunny.

[Slade1]

I pick the Soulmonger, a magical object which slowly and permanently murders anyone previously brought back from the dead (which, as far as I'm aware, covers every single JLA member mentioned in the OP) as my artifact, and watch the JLA slowly (possibly very, very slowly - I'm unclear on the exact mechanics of the death curse) wither away while I do nothing in particular. Every other choice becomes tailored to protecting it and/or myself from detection, which isn't actually quite that hard, across editions (blanket immunities to scrying and/or psionics are not uncommon via items, while illusions should be manageable via class). And while it's undoubtedly a very evil object, every actual reperocussion that it carries is explicitly reversible once it's destroyed.

In the unlikely event that Hal Jordan's never died before these days (which I'm pretty sure is wrong) and someone's rule-lawyering hard for the ring's mortal harm defenses, something like a Mirror of Life Trapping should probably do the job (knowing everyone's true names also makes some of the more broken magic much more wieldy). 'A catoblepas' (explicitly unsaveable magic death stare to go with an already illusion-heavy build) would have been my lowest rent, slightly questionable answer to handling Superman specifically, but somehow "creature" isn't covered in the categories here.

This kind of feels like this might fall into the no limits fallacy category. I mean Galactus has died before so would it work on him? Or Spectre?

[Zagreus]

Okay, it's time for me to see if I can beat my own challenge... (part 1)



To start, I'll be using the AD&D rules. Since we're allowed to be dual or multi-classed, and I have the XP of a 20th level character, I'll be a dual-classed human. A 20th level mage has 3,750,000 xp, I'll take 675,000 xp and use that to be an 11th level Cleric (of the philosophy of Self-Actualization) and then have 3,100,000 xp as a 18th level Mage. Only one 9th level spell per day, but casting up to 6th level divine spells is worth that trade off, I figure.

Okay, so magic items: 4 potions, 4 scrolls, 4 magic items and an Artifact. Potions- we'll go with two Potions of Speed, and two Potions of Extra Healing. The Scrolls will be 2 Wishes, 1 Gate, 1 Imprisonment, just so I have some back-ups.

Magic items: Sphere of Annihilation, Talisman of the Sphere, Cloak of Displacement, Rod of Rulership.

Artifact: The Jacinth of Inestimable Beauty. In AD&D the artifacts had variable powers, that were able to be selected so let's say the Jacinth has the following abilities from the table in the book: Mind Blank 3 x day, Hypnotic Pattern (when moved) 3 x per day, Disintegrate 1 x day, Wizard Eye 2 x per day, Trap the Soul with 90% effectiveness 1 x month, User has limited omniscience and may request the DM to answer 1 question per game day. Drawbacks: Sense of smell lost for 2-8 hours when first used against an enemy (oh noes), and I need to sacrifice... let's say a goat, 1 x a day, to the artifact to make it work for that day.

The plan:

I set up in a secure location somewhere remote. With the Rod of Rulership, and the purchase of a herd of goats, somewhere remote and secure (maybe a castle in Europe somewhere), along with servants to attend to any mundane needs, I use scrying spells and the Jacinith to find out details about the JLA. I want to take out Batman first, as he has kryptonite I need for my plan.

Batman: Unless he built in magical protection from scrying built into his Batcave, I just scry it, teleport in via Teleport w/o error and under the cloak of Greater Invisibility, then hit Bats with Glitterdust, both blinding him and also covering him with gold flakes so he can't stealth away. Then I just try to end it quick with a Finger of Death or Power Word: Kill. I'm more concerned that he'll alert others before he croaks, ruining my surprises, so probably bring a summoned monster or undead creature along (also invisible). Then I'll find his kryptonite and any other useful stuff and plans he has against the JLA I might find handy via Knock and Find Trap spells to bypass his secure systems.

After this, it gets tricky.

Superman: I'll go after Superman next. I have the Kryptonite, and I need to get to him before he finds out his Bat-buddy is dead, and he goes enraged warrior Supes on me. I want him on low-alert, just your friendly neighborhood Superman. I pose as a gaudy costumed criminal with a ridiculous outfit in Metropolis, and rob a bank or something. When the cops try to stop me, I have up Stoneskin and zap them with magic missiles, or maybe a Chromatic Orb to mix things up. I try to avoid killing the cops though. The idea is to pose as a low-rent meta, too tough for a Metropolis Science Police, and needing the attention of a "hero", while not being a major threat either. Of course, the problem with this plan, is that I could catch the attention of Supergirl or whoever else instead, but let's say with the Jacinith and a divination or two, I have a good chance to suss out Supes' patrol route.

When Supes says, "Hey buddy, what's with this commotion? I think I'll bring you to lock up and give you a chance to cool off." I bring out the K from my lead-lined case (edit: correction, I'll use a Deeppockets spell to create a mini bag of holding in my pants and pull it out of there. Superman is probably pretty saavy to the "lead-lined case trick". Though pulling the K out of a pocket dimension in my pants should surprise him). Then, when he is feeble, I hit him with an Imprisonment spell- not before stuffing the K down his shirt. Dead Kryptonian.

Gotta think on the others...

[Alias]

This kind of feels like this might fall into the no limits fallacy category. I mean Galactus has died before so would it work on him? Or Spectre?

Obviously yes, it would work on Galactus. Everything works on Galactus. It would work on Batroc, too. (Henceforth known as Batroc the Leper, for a short, ignoble while.)

Otherwise, I'll admit I'm slightly baffled by this line of inquiry (partly because it should probably apply much more directly to almost every single spell and tactic mentioned in this thread). The Soulmonger worked equally on every humanoid in the world, even if they later moved planes or left the planet (which strongly suggests there's no real need to keep the thing on DC Earth for more than a few rounds, incidentally), regardless of level or status, and obviously defying at least one level of divine intervention. (Acererak, by the by, is evidently in the god-making game now, under this interpretation, even outside of the atropal business. He's also personally killed nine different "trickster gods" that are directly relevant to the adventure, although there seems to be every possible reason to doubt their full credentials.) Cosmic beings are a fairly meaningless yardstick here -- it works on "mortals" (not even an actual criterion, if we're truly being pedantic) and "humanoids", and these terms overlap enough in both settings that I'd happily apply them both to everyone on our actual hit list. (Only Wonder Woman even skirts the issue, and I don't think she's a full-blown goddess at the moment.)

(In point of fact I'd find it just as arbitrary to assume it flatly wouldn't work on a Spectre or a Galactus, regardless of how trivially they'd consequently deal with it. I'm far from an expert, but I want to say there's plenty of relevant incidents in the Spectre's history in particular that suggest he'd have to consciously choose to do something about it, and this isn't a Khazan engagement, where we'd automatically assume he's at full published capacity every single moment. Obviously, the Spectre very rarely is.)

[Noldere]

How susceptible is the Justice League to time shenanigans?

Actually, how susceptible is this neigh-omnipotent to time shenanigans?

[The MunchKING]

How susceptible is the Justice League to time shenanigans?

Actually, how susceptible is this neigh-omnipotent to time shenanigans?

A lot more than D&D is willing to give you time shenanigans to work with.

[Slade1]

Obviously yes, it would work on Galactus. Everything works on Galactus. It would work on Batroc, too. (Henceforth known as Batroc the Leper, for a short, ignoble while.)

Otherwise, I'll admit I'm slightly baffled by this line of inquiry (partly because it should probably apply much more directly to almost every single spell and tactic mentioned in this thread). The Soulmonger worked equally on every humanoid in the world, even if they later moved planes or left the planet (which strongly suggests there's no real need to keep the thing on DC Earth for more than a few rounds, incidentally), regardless of level or status, and obviously defying at least one level of divine intervention. (Acererak, by the by, is evidently in the god-making game now, under this interpretation, even outside of the atropal business. He's also personally killed nine different "trickster gods" that are directly relevant to the adventure, although there seems to be every possible reason to doubt their full credentials.) Cosmic beings are a fairly meaningless yardstick here -- it works on "mortals" (not even an actual criterion, if we're truly being pedantic) and "humanoids", and these terms overlap enough in both settings that I'd happily apply them both to everyone on our actual hit list. (Only Wonder Woman even skirts the issue, and I don't think she's a full-blown goddess at the moment.)

(In point of fact I'd find it just as arbitrary to assume it flatly wouldn't work on a Spectre or a Galactus, regardless of how trivially they'd consequently deal with it. I'm far from an expert, but I want to say there's plenty of relevant incidents in the Spectre's history in particular that suggest he'd have to consciously choose to do something about it, and this isn't a Khazan engagement, where we'd automatically assume he's at full published capacity every single moment. Obviously, the Spectre very rarely is.)

Sorry but that’s not how works here. It’s going to work because I say so is not an argument. We go by who’s the most powerful the spell worked on. Anyone above that is no limits fallacy. If it’s never been used against people like Galactus or Spectre then, no, it’s not going to work.

[Slade1]

Also, being a “god” doesn’t mean all that much in DC or Marvel. Thor is a full god but he would get trounced by Galactus or Spectre who are not gods.

[Noldere]

Hmm...

It's somewhat dull, but I suppose a basic strategy would be to raise your own group of 'loyal' kryptonians and have them kill the league for you.

[Alias]

Stealing the Bottle City of Kandor should be a perfectly valid tactic here, sure.

[Alias]

Sorry but that’s not how works here. It’s going to work because I say so is not an argument. We go by who’s the most powerful the spell worked on. Anyone above that is no limits fallacy. If it’s never been used against people like Galactus or Spectre then, no, it’s not going to work.

Also, being a “god” doesn’t mean all that much in DC or Marvel. Thor is a full god but he would get trounced by Galactus or Spectre who are not gods.

Galactus and the Spectre are completely irrelevant here, so I continue to be baffled by whatever point you think you're making. It's an esoteric, mystical effect that bypasses durability (and uniformly works on entire planets, for scale, though even that's not necessarily all that important). There's no part of that sentence that either character are flat-out immune to as part of some imaginary power-set, therefore you don't get to unilaterally assume it bears literally no impact on them by default (disregarding for the moment that the Spectre's arguably undead, and Galactus's certainly not humanoid). Compare the Penance Stare, for one example, or any number of magical effects both have momentarily struggled with over the years.

Being a "god" obviously means something in D&D terms, which varies greatly by the minute, much less edition, but isn't necessarily useless for our actual purposes (or even cosmically, on some occassions, but that's just not a point I see the slightest value in persuing).

Is Superman mortal or humanoid in either setting? I'd argue "yes", and for largely the same reasons. Does he have any meaningful defense against this sort of magic? Probably not, all things considered (particularly since it bypasses all established magical and necromantic defenses, which can be relatively considerable). therefore he'll probably be effected. His relative power level is already factored in through the mechanics.

[Zagreus]

Obviously yes, it would work on Galactus. Everything works on Galactus. It would work on Batroc, too. (Henceforth known as Batroc the Leper, for a short, ignoble while.)

Otherwise, I'll admit I'm slightly baffled by this line of inquiry (partly because it should probably apply much more directly to almost every single spell and tactic mentioned in this thread). The Soulmonger worked equally on every humanoid in the world, even if they later moved planes or left the planet (which strongly suggests there's no real need to keep the thing on DC Earth for more than a few rounds, incidentally), regardless of level or status, and obviously defying at least one level of divine intervention. (Acererak, by the by, is evidently in the god-making game now, under this interpretation, even outside of the atropal business. He's also personally killed nine different "trickster gods" that are directly relevant to the adventure, although there seems to be every possible reason to doubt their full credentials.) Cosmic beings are a fairly meaningless yardstick here -- it works on "mortals" (not even an actual criterion, if we're truly being pedantic) and "humanoids", and these terms overlap enough in both settings that I'd happily apply them both to everyone on our actual hit list. (Only Wonder Woman even skirts the issue, and I don't think she's a full-blown goddess at the moment.)

(In point of fact I'd find it just as arbitrary to assume it flatly wouldn't work on a Spectre or a Galactus, regardless of how trivially they'd consequently deal with it. I'm far from an expert, but I want to say there's plenty of relevant incidents in the Spectre's history in particular that suggest he'd have to consciously choose to do something about it, and this isn't a Khazan engagement, where we'd automatically assume he's at full published capacity every single moment. Obviously, the Spectre very rarely is.)

It seems to me that it would work on Superman and most of the others. Wonder Woman (often classified as a demi-god) is questionable. Is it their divine status that prevents it from working? But it seems to me that it should work on the others (all of whom have died and been brought back, incidentally). Though, because it's a slow drain, and these are tough beings, the trick would then be for the mage to keep himself from being discovered. (Though it could be argued that Superman didn't "actually die" but went into a prolonged coma state during 'Death of Superman'...though there is probably some other time he did die.)

My two cents, anyway!

[Zagreus]

Hmm...

It's somewhat dull, but I suppose a basic strategy would be to raise your own group of 'loyal' kryptonians and have them kill the league for you.

Part two of my strategy involves using a hair the recently defeated Superman, and creating a Simulacrum of him, incidentally. Lol.

[Alias]

The neigh-god doesn't make you immortal, alas. He commends your cleverness for finding a loophole he didn't consider! Let's say he doesn't want to create a challenger to his own self by creating a 20th level immortal (!). He did take your family, after all.

Another fairly straight-forward exploit would be to pick an arcanist from the Netheril boxset (a quick lookup suggests they'd just hit 10th level spells, and they used spell points for casting, using basic linear progression; there's also an Elven sourcebook for the same era, which I'm sure will have used entirely different rules for next to no reason), but by all acounts that's all actually pretty dull, so by all means, let's ignore it.

(One could also argue that any actual 20th level character that meets the guidelines is viable by default. "The power of a 20th level D&D character of your choice (pick your edition, whichever you like)" -- I'd say there's technically two different ways of reading this that conform to this interpretation.)

(Though the neigh-god is less diligent/concerned about artifacts. Whatever D&D artifact the player chooses is theirs. Even if it could potentially be used against the neigh-god itself)

I've been browsing through the deity sourcebooks while pondering the neigh-god's foolishness. Here are some preliminary results:

The headdress of love and war -- basically the undisputed winner, ignoring the disturbing bits.
Death's sword -- actually largely the same as an AD&D solar's bow and quiver in effect, but probably much cooler. Apparently they actually had the rights for this property at the time, unlike the Melnibone and Cthulhu pantheons.
The Scepter of the Gods
Ratri's cloak

There's also a famously OP version of Stormbringer that's still a terrible idea in general (Elric's Ring of Kings's similarly been somewhat fortified).

Btw, a 20th level basic D&D character is totally viable (if, for example, one wanted to be a 20th level Elf for example as your PC and claim sweet fighter/magic-user abilities.

There's probably a fair few reasons to pick a max-level 'Basic' spellcaster, even with the limited spell lists (nine 9th-level spells per day, no material components, ten-second rounds, flexible wish rules, monster-creation spells, spiffy, pointless titles, etc.). That level would be thirty-six, though (even if it maps out to an AD&D twenty per the official conversion guidelines, as far as I recall). I think wizards only even reached 9th-level spells at level twenty-one. They did not get wish until level thirty-three or thirty-six (the rules seemed to vary somewhat between rulesets, or maybe someone accidentally copied from the cleric spell).

Elves'd ordinarily hit the the level cap at 10th, incidentally, although I'm pretty sure there's ways around that in the gazeteers.

[Alias]

Magic items: Sphere of Annihilation, Talisman of the Sphere, Cloak of Displacement, Rod of Rulership.

I've been thinking a rod of beguiling is pretty much a must here (and that's before realizing it lasted ten times longer than I thought it did). Likewise an amulet of proof against detection and location, or something similar (I'm not entirely sure how these things have interacted with invisibility or other illusion spells over the years, but I know that there's been more than zero synergy).

Other random 2ed notes:
- The Diablo adaptation introduced infinitiely stackable stat-boosting items, only capped by the system maximum of 25 (Deckard Cain actually breaks that cap just by technically not being a PC, arguably making him cleverer than the largely omnisicient greater gods of the time). Two rings easily get you a flat +10 in every attribute. Oils can be used to restore repair magical items, which could be a perfectly decent use for some of the potion slots (another option might be picking water from the Styx). The book's clearly designed as a sourcebook/standalone adventure, with all the usual gestures at adapting it to your campaign.
- Temporal stasis is actually more powerful than generally given credit for. I think people tend to remember it as fully balanced against imprisonment, but nothing in the description actually limits physical interaction with the creature in stasis (I want to say some esoteric Kara Tur creature actually made use of that fact). It still takes too long to cast, but if you can chain it to an item, or just put it on scroll, it's probably worth looking at. (Despite being unsaveable, it's probably not a given that it'd work well against everybody on the hit list, but it also shouldn't trigger the "mortal harm" defense.)

The Dark Lens generally feels like the standout artifact from the 2ed era, for being just as powerful in the crunch-wise as it was in the books. (Constant mind blank and the creature creation abilities, on top of all the rest, actually make it slightly more oven-ready as an option here then I remembered. It's still generally obtrusive, but there are ways around it, and you probably shouldn't be hanging around these people much in the first place, much less fighting them directly. The "curse" is pretty mild, all things considered, and largely just the cost of doing business. Just pick the "all a dream" option and you're good. Or don't, and enjoy your budding, ultimately well-earned megalomania.)

The Bloodstone of Fistandantilus is definitely a workable route to take here. Sacrifice your sanity and start with Batman, subsequently using his own protocols against the JLA. (Ignore the unproveable near-certainty he's set-up an undead backup personality just for this circumstance, and the multiple mostly-figurative demons that are haunting him at any time. This might also trigger Failsafe eventually, but there may be ways of turning that to your advantage.) All quibbles aside, you're still a tangibly smarter Batman now, with the right equipment.

Demonwing is probably fairly useless here, but a pretty metal way to travel. (Looking it up brings up the Vallis Crystal, which is similarly useless, but possibly a satisfying way of saying you've hit someone with a planet.)

Baba Yaga's hut is probably extremely handy in its own way, if rules for using it for interplanar or dimensional travel are ever actually codified somewhere, but never seemed to give other masters the power to tell the sun around like Baba Yaga, so ultimately I fail to see the point.


I don't know that it's an entirely viable strategy, but surely the ideal has to be making the Flash run into an invisible prismatic wall at some point.