Unpopular/Controversial Opinions

[Mary Jay]

Absolutely, all kinds of diversity are important. I'm hoping Marvel takes a page out of Valiant's book and introduces a plus-size superheroine, where her weight isn't a joke or a flaw, but is just the way she is.

In regards to your example: That still wouldn't count as diversity. It would be a metaphor for diversity, but metaphor is not real diversity. The original X-Men series was not a diverse comic, metaphor be damned. There's nothing wrong with exploring racial issues through metaphor; sci-fi has a proud history of doing that sort of thing. But adding a green character to a book does not make that book more diverse. Especially if racial metaphors aren't being explored in that book.

I get what you're saying, but at the same time I can't help but wonder what goal you expect Marvel to meet by adding more diversity?

Is it as a way to show the world that people from all race, gender or sexual orientation can be superheroes? Because I think people already know that. There have been superheroes of all races introduced in comics throughout the history of Marvel, and frankly if someone thinks otherwise by now, they should take their head out of that dark hole they shoved it into...

Or is it a way to attract new readers who suddenly would recognize themselves in the heroes? Your example of Valiant and their plus-size superheroine struck a chord for me since I'm myself a bit overweight girl. But to be honest, having a comics about a plus-size heroine won't attract me to the book.

And really, I stand by my example. Diversity in comics is different than in the real life. Having a green alien, or an android, or what have you, shows a diverse team. I don't seen why you get to determine what's diverse and what isn't. This is all only opinions.

[ed2962]

So you're saying if the experiment fails and they have to go back to the original characters then no anti-white male sentiment existed? That makes no sense. That's like saying there was not discrimination in the south because people of color can sit at the front of the bus now. My comments are about the here and now, what is going on right now in the MU. Marvel had tried to launch separate diverse titles in the past and they failed. I'm sorry they failed but they did. Maybe they were successful but not to Marvel's definition, I don't know. Marvel had tried to leverage the popularity by replacing a lead character and it failed, again I'm sorry but it did. Secret Wars is a scorched earth policy. Wipe em out and rewrite them all. You don't have to believe that, its my opinion. And its my opinion because it is happening in all areas of business and academia, not just comic books. Will it work? I don't know. My past experience with the groups of people who force this kind of change says no it won't, because their mission in life is not equality for all, its superiority for them. Once they get the change they want they move on. Its history. Marvel's made its change, now its up to these new groups of readers to keep that change alive. We'll see what happens.

I'm saying 3 or 4 characters who have been temporarily replaced don't prove an anti-male conspiracy. Specially considering at least two of those characters have replaced several times in the past and always return. Heck, you could form a team based on ex-temp Capt Americas.

I'm talking about what's going on right now too. Secret Wars did not wipe out all the white men in the MU and rewrite them. All the white men in business and academia are not losing jobs to minorities. Minorities are are struggling in the job market as well. Groups forcing change and moving on? Really?

Look, maybe someone could make a case for the changes being about sales or publicity or whatever, but anti-white men?

[Mary Jay]

So how's this for a controversial opinion: Stop being insulting towards creators and readers. Say you don't like something. Even explain why you think a thing doesn't work. But do not pretend that you're better than other people for not liking something, because that? That's just being a dick.

I really don't mean to offend you, because I really don't think that's your intention, but... I sorta get that feeling from you at times. I feel that every time the diversity angle is addressed in a thread, you get very defensive and sometimes it comes off a bit rude to others. That's a bit why I posted earlier that I was sorry to like certain characters, old school characters who happen to be white. I felt the need to apologize because sometimes when I read your posts, I feel guilty for some reason for liking them, being upset by their replacement or rooting for their comeback.

Like I said, I mean no disrespect. Your interventions are solid and well-articulated, and that's always a plus. But you're sometimes so rigid in your opinions that it almost comes off as insulting to anyone who doesn't share them.

[Tiamatty]

I get what you're saying, but at the same time I can't help but wonder what goal you expect Marvel to meet by adding more diversity?

Is it as a way to show the world that people from all race, gender or sexual orientation can be superheroes? Because I think people already know that. There have been superheroes of all races introduced in comics throughout the history of Marvel, and frankly if someone thinks otherwise by now, they should take their head out of that dark hole they shoved it into...

Or is it a way to attract new readers who suddenly would recognize themselves in the heroes? Your example of Valiant and their plus-size superheroine struck a chord for me since I'm myself a bit overweight girl. But to be honest, having a comics about a plus-size heroine won't attract me to the book.

And really, I stand by my example. Diversity in comics is different than in the real life. Having a green alien, or an android, or what have you, shows a diverse team. I don't seen why you get to determine what's diverse and what isn't. This is all only opinions.

The goal is both those things. Show all people they can be heroes, and get people interested in comics by showing them characters who are like them. Diversity matters because representation matters. Seeing yourself in a story is an incredibly powerful feeling, especially when you're young. So it's important to give people heroes who reflect them, and giving them those heroes makes it more likely they'll get involved. A young Muslim girl is a lot more likely to pick up a comic with Ms. Marvel, and when you get that hook into her, it's a lot easier to get her to read other stuff, as well.

Hell, I'm a straight white guy, and I still get excited whenever I see a librarian character in a story, simply because I'm trying to get a career in that field. If that kind of representation matters even to someone who's already over-represented in media, just think of how much it means to people who aren't used to seeing themselves in stories.

And I stand by my argument that fictional minorities don't count towards representation. It's not real diversity. It's not even metaphorical diversity, unless the story is intended as a metaphor for diversity.

[Tony Stark]

I LOVED the story were Norman Osborn and Gwen Stacy had kids.
Cable saved the mutant race, not Cyclops
It was disgusting what Marvel did to Nick Fury in Original Sins.
Miguel O'Hara is the best Spider-Man
SpOck was better at fighting villains than Peter.
Doctor Strange should always be written as a top 6 smartest hero in the MU and should be the Sherlock Holmes of magic.
Hank Pym has always been underutilized.
Black Panther is not a Gary Stu, but one of the greatest characters ever created.
Doom can be written like Batman as in if he's not the best at everything and beats everyone people get butthurt.
One of the greatest and most underappreciated rivalries is Thanos vs. Adam Warlock
Cable is Liefield's greatest creation and not Deadpool(No knock on Deadpool)
The Punisher is not a one note character, but one of the greatest comic creations ever.
Cyclops is an amazing character, but doesn't get punished for the things he does.
Never read a story with Beast or Mockingbird and wanted to read more about them after.
This is the most interesting Peter Parker has ever been.

[Kuwagaton]

I think Ben Reilly was the best Spider-Man. Back when he was Peter, that is.

The book was also one of the worst titles of the NOW! era, so it is not because people don't want to give it a try .

Edit: I just checked on the figures and looks like its first chapter sold more than the first chapter of Secret Avengers v2 which was also a non-main Avengers title.

And I didn't shot this as an unpopular opinion by the way, there was a discussion about Ultimates.

But "worst" is absolutely an opinion, popular or not. They writing typically went over well with most review sites. It's also an opinion that there was a "no whites" policy because the team had several recurring members who would identify as white.

[Mantis Girl 94]

First, I love this thread....it gives us a chance to rant LOL

Here are my "Unpopular" opinions... (hope I don't catch too much hazing):

Aquaman is a dork
90% of all female heroes are LAME (and I'm a girl)
There should be only 1 Avengers book
There should be only 1 X-Men book
There should only be 1 person in ALL the universes that have Spidey's powers (Peter)
Spidey alone should have 3 books (Amazing, and secondary book, and a team up book)
The Inhumans, besides Black Bolt are Lame
The Ghost Rider is one of Marvel's best characters (the Original or Danny)
Hank Pym sucks unless he is Ant-Man or Yellow Jacket
All Hulks should die except Bruce and Jen
Blue Marvel and Sentry and Hyperion are all the most dumb ideas ever
Fantastic Four is the greatest team ever
Daredevil needs his red back
The early Defenders are the mightiest team of all time
Slott's Superior A+, Slott's Silver Surfer C-
Cloak and Dagger need to disappear forever
There should be No female characters named; "______ Marvel anything", unless they were married to Cpt. Mar-Vell
No comics today are as good as the old 12cent, 15cent, and 20cent comics
Cyclops is cool
Iceman shouldn't be gay
The only "new Xmen" starting from GS#1 that are worth reading about are; Wolverine, Nightcrawler, Storm, and no one.
Iron Man is one of the best characters; until writers ruined him and made him an Ass
Top female characters of all time; Invisible Woman, Scarlet Witch, Storm, Phoenix, and no one...
Namor is Marvel's 1st character; and should be treated as one of the most important
Black Panther is the best hero "of color" of all time
the Wendigo is awesome

and last but not least...

If you (Marvel Hero) didn't exist before 1976 then you don't deserve to be around..please leave comics forever Now!

[Tiamatty]

I really don't mean to offend you, because I really don't think that's your intention, but... I sorta get that feeling from you at times. I feel that every time the diversity angle is addressed in a thread, you get very defensive and sometimes it comes off a bit rude to others. That's a bit why I posted earlier that I was sorry to like certain characters, old school characters who happen to be white. I felt the need to apologize because sometimes when I read your posts, I feel guilty for some reason for liking them, being upset by their replacement or rooting for their comeback.

Like I said, I mean no disrespect. Your interventions are solid and well-articulated, and that's always a plus. But you're sometimes so rigid in your opinions that it almost comes off as insulting to anyone who doesn't share them.

I do try to make it clear that I'm not judging anyone for who they do and don't like. Everyone has different tastes. If most of the characters you like are straight white guys? Nothing wrong with that. You like who you like, and people generally don't decide what appeals to them. No one ever has to apologize for liking any character. And it's really common to like the old-school characters. There's a powerful sense of history and nostalgia with those characters. Because they've been around for so long, they've had a lot of great stories. And they've been important parts of all the big, important stories. So I don't blame people for liking those characters, and I don't think they're wrong for it.

I do think it's a problem. And I think it's unfortunate that so many people are so focused on the classic characters - more specifically, the classic titles - that they refuse to give new titles a real try. I wish more people would be more willing to pick up a comic like Ultimates or Angela or the Kathryn Immonen run on Journey Into Mystery (and I will never forgive the people who let that book die!). I don't blame specific people, but I think it's unfortunate on the larger scale, and I think it's why things like Sam as Cap, or Jane as Thor, or the line-up of the ANAD Avengers, are entirely valid forms of creating diversity. No one would pick up a comic about Sif, no matter who the writer was. But Thor? People pick up Thor. So Jane taking over as Thor is going to get readers - and, in fact, it has gotten readers. It's doing quite well. Sam as Cap has been, unfortunately, less successful. Which is a shame, but it happens. (And, I'll admit, it's not a book I'm buying, either. Sam's not a character who's ever been a real draw for me, though I respect him and understand why his fans do like him.) But these sorts of replacements are a way to expose readers to female and minority characters, and hopefully, get them to follow some of those characters to other books later on.

But in the end, no one has to feel obligated to like or buy a certain thing, and no one has to feel guilty about what they do like or buy. I think the tendency to put people down based on their personal tastes is really, really shitty. A good-faith debate about the quality of a character or story is fine. That's great. I am always ready to explain why Xavier is just The Worst, or to make the case that Karma is one of Marvel's best characters. That's just fun, because it's meant as a debate about in-universe details. What's not fun is casting aspersions on the motives and thoughts of the creators and fans of certain characters and stories, which is what the "SJW" crap is all about. The people doing that are just flat-out insulting creators and fans alike, and holding themselves as superior to those creators and fans.


Also: I don't pretend to be better for what I don't like, I pretend to be better for what I do like. World of difference.

[dragonmp93]

You're right, Marvel's totally suppressing the white man. If only there were places where readers could find white guys! If only Tony Stark had a solo, a second announced solo, and a team title! If only Steve Rogers had a team title and an announced solo! If only Logan had a solo and a team title! If only Peter Parker had a solo, a team-up with another white guy, and supporting roles in multiple other titles!

But sadly, white males just don't seem to be in any books these days.


Rowling didn't "retcon" anything. She pointed out that Hermione's race is never actually stated in the books. There is literally nothing to say she's not black, Indian, Japanese or anything else.


Absolutely, all kinds of diversity are important. I'm hoping Marvel takes a page out of Valiant's book and introduces a plus-size superheroine, where her weight isn't a joke or a flaw, but is just the way she is.

Well, given that the other not-z-list plus-sizes characters on the Marvel Universe are the Kingpin and the Blob, i dont think that's going to happen anytime soon.

In regards to your example: That still wouldn't count as diversity. It would be a metaphor for diversity, but metaphor is not real diversity. The original X-Men series was not a diverse comic, metaphor be damned. There's nothing wrong with exploring racial issues through metaphor; sci-fi has a proud history of doing that sort of thing. But adding a green character to a book does not make that book more diverse. Especially if racial metaphors aren't being explored in that book.


So, here's the thing about adding Silver Surfer to the Ultimates: The Ultimates is about a team that's protecting the Earth. That's their purpose. They go into space to solve problems that may threaten the Earth. The Silver Surfer is not an Earth-based hero, despite the time he spends there, so he actually doesn't fit the team. And as far as it not being diverse, well, sure. Three black characters, one Latina lesbian and one white woman. Plenty of groups not represented there. But no book will represent every group. But Ultimates is a book about a powerhouse team that's not made up of the usual white guys and aliens. It's a minority-majority team, and it does fit into Marvel's larger push for diversity.

Blue Marvel was not meant to "appease the SJWs." It was a black writer who wanted to explore the lack of black superheroes in the early days, and to create a black Superman-type character. You don't like the premise? Fine. But you're wrong about the point of the character.


In the comics, Silver Surfer is white when not silver.

Ms. America is not defined by her race or sexuality. Her sexuality has come up exactly three times - once at the very end of Young Avengers, once in a text message in a story in an Original Sin anthology comic, and in the Avengers #0 anthology comic. Her race comes up only in regards to how she speaks - she uses occasional Spanish words. That's it. No, what defines Ms. America are a few things: She's jaded, cynical and stand-offish, but she's also still dedicated to helping people, following in the footsteps of her moms to be a hero and protect people. Ewing's also expanding what Gillen set up with her, to show that she's very experienced with other realities, and has a lot of knowledge relating to that. It's fine if you don't like the character; but cut the condescending bullshit about her, all right?

Same goes with Blue Marvel.


In fact, let me just get something here, right now: When you insult a character, you insult every single fan of that character. When you say a character is "pandering to SJWs," you're saying that every single person who likes that character is wrong to do so. That is bullshit. No one is saying you have to like any given character. No one's going to say you're wrong to not think that Storm is the greatest character ever. Everyone's tastes are different, and what excites one person will leave another person wondering what the fuss is about. Nothing at all wrong about that.

What is wrong is when that second person then proceeds to say why the character is the worst thing ever and that everyone who loves the character is an idiot with horrible taste. And that's what's going on here. I love Ms. America. She's one of my favourite characters. I think she's a really cool, compelling character with a great backstory and a lot of depth. And you're basically saying I'm stupid for holding that view. You are. You're saying that anyone who likes her is just some gullible jackass who's falling for a shallow trick. Oh, you're also saying the writers who've used her are jackasses pushing a shallow trick, so you're insulting them, too.

So how's this for a controversial opinion: Stop being insulting towards creators and readers. Say you don't like something. Even explain why you think a thing doesn't work. But do not pretend that you're better than other people for not liking something, because that? That's just being a dick.

Let's see if ANY OF US remembers that the next time that Marvel commission a cover from Manara, or something like that.

[Mary Jay]

I do try to make it clear that I'm not judging anyone for who they do and don't like. Everyone has different tastes. If most of the characters you like are straight white guys? Nothing wrong with that. You like who you like, and people generally don't decide what appeals to them. No one ever has to apologize for liking any character. And it's really common to like the old-school characters. There's a powerful sense of history and nostalgia with those characters. Because they've been around for so long, they've had a lot of great stories. And they've been important parts of all the big, important stories. So I don't blame people for liking those characters, and I don't think they're wrong for it.

I do think it's a problem. And I think it's unfortunate that so many people are so focused on the classic characters - more specifically, the classic titles - that they refuse to give new titles a real try. I wish more people would be more willing to pick up a comic like Ultimates or Angela or the Kathryn Immonen run on Journey Into Mystery (and I will never forgive the people who let that book die!). I don't blame specific people, but I think it's unfortunate on the larger scale, and I think it's why things like Sam as Cap, or Jane as Thor, or the line-up of the ANAD Avengers, are entirely valid forms of creating diversity. No one would pick up a comic about Sif, no matter who the writer was. But Thor? People pick up Thor. So Jane taking over as Thor is going to get readers - and, in fact, it has gotten readers. It's doing quite well. Sam as Cap has been, unfortunately, less successful. Which is a shame, but it happens. (And, I'll admit, it's not a book I'm buying, either. Sam's not a character who's ever been a real draw for me, though I respect him and understand why his fans do like him.) But these sorts of replacements are a way to expose readers to female and minority characters, and hopefully, get them to follow some of those characters to other books later on.

But in the end, no one has to feel obligated to like or buy a certain thing, and no one has to feel guilty about what they do like or buy. I think the tendency to put people down based on their personal tastes is really, really shitty. A good-faith debate about the quality of a character or story is fine. That's great. I am always ready to explain why Xavier is just The Worst, or to make the case that Karma is one of Marvel's best characters. That's just fun, because it's meant as a debate about in-universe details. What's not fun is casting aspersions on the motives and thoughts of the creators and fans of certain characters and stories, which is what the "SJW" crap is all about. The people doing that are just flat-out insulting creators and fans alike, and holding themselves as superior to those creators and fans.


Also: I don't pretend to be better for what I don't like, I pretend to be better for what I do like. World of difference.

Thank you for understanding and for this explanation. It's nice to see we can still carry a conversation even if we don't agree on everything.

[Tiamatty]

Well, given that the other not-z-list plus-sizes characters on the Marvel Universe are the Kingpin and the Blob, i dont think that's going to happen anytime soon.

In the end, it comes down to the creators. Readers just need to make it clear it's something they'd like to see. I think it'll happen. It's just a matter of time.

[mysterio1989]

I think The Rigellians could kick the crap out of the Brood
I find it insulting Annilus is on any Galactic council especially if Klrt is present
Bendis cosmic run is a horrific train wreck that needs to be purged and retcon from continuity.
Only Ben Grimm should be on the only human on the Guardians Venom go back to being solo and
Kitty Pryde should GTFO.
I hate X-men members in my Avengers the same way I hate peanut butter in chocolate.
The X-men are bunch of filthy hypocrites.

[mace11]

Grabbed from Snopes:
If we could shrink the earth's population to a village of precisely 100 people, with all the existing human ratios remaining the same, it would look something like the following.
There would be:
57 Asians
21 Europeans
14 from the Western Hemisphere, both north and south
8 Africans

I stand by my "controversial" opinion

You got the census wrong.
The modern population of africa is larger then modern europe.
The modern population of africa is larger then the americas.
Western Hemisphere is not what you really mean and that will be explained below.

Africa

Africa is the world's second-largest and second-most-populous continent. At about 30.2 million km2 (11.7 million sq mi) including adjacent islands, it covers six percent of Earth's total surface area and 20.4 percent of its total land area. With 1.1 billion people as of 2013, it accounts for about 15% of the world's human population.

As for the Western Hemisphere?you really mean this,the Americas.
Americas

Population 954 million (July 2013 estimate)

The Americas, or America,also known as the Western Hemisphere and the New World, comprise the totality of territories in North America and South America.

The population is approaching 1 billion, with over 65% of them living in one of the three most populous countries (the United States, Brazil, and Mexico). The most populous cities are São Paulo, Mexico City, New York City, Buenos Aires and Los Angeles.

Be careful with word Western Hemisphere.
Here is the real definition.
Western Hemisphere

The Western Hemisphere is a geographical term for the half of the earth that lies west of the prime meridian (which crosses Greenwich, UK) and east of the antimeridian, the other half being called the Eastern Hemisphere.
In this sense, the Western Hemisphere consists of the Americas, the western portions of Europe and Africa, the extreme eastern tip of Russia, numerous territories in Oceania, and a portion of Antarctica, while excluding some of the Aleutian Islands to the southwest of the Alaskan mainland.
In an effort to define the Western Hemisphere as the parts of the world which are not part of the Old World, there also exist projections which use the 20th meridian west and the diametrically opposed 160th meridian east to define the hemisphere. This projection excludes the European and African mainlands and a small portion of northeast Greenland, but includes more of eastern Russia and Oceania.
The population of the geographical Western Hemisphere exceeds 1 billion. Of the four hemispheres, only the Southern Hemisphere is less populated.

For the others
Demographics of Europe
Total population

In 2010 the population of Europe was estimated to be 740 million according to the United Nations, which was slightly less than 11% of world population. The precise figure depends on the exact definition of the geographic extent of Europe. The population of the European Union (EU) was 508 million as of 2015. Non-EU countries situated in Europe in their entirety account for another 94 million. Five transcontinental countries have a total of 240 million people, of which about half reside in Europe proper.

As it stands now, around 12% of the world's people live in Europe, but if demographic trends keep their pace, its share may fall to around 7% in 2050. The sub-replacement fertility and high life expectancy in most European states mean a declining and aging population as it isn't offset by the current immigration level. This situation expected to be a challenge for their economies, political and social institutions. Countries on the edges of Europe, except for southern Europe, have generally stronger growth than Central European counterparts. Albania and Ireland have strong growth, hitting over 1% annually.

Asia

Population: 4.427 billion (2014)

Demographics of Asia

The continent of Asia covers 29.4% of the Earth's land area and has a population of over 4 billion, accounting for about 56% of the world population. The combined population of both China and India are estimated to be over 2.6 billion people.

Another point,american comics like dc and marvel main focus is on populations living in the u.s.(americans)or those living in america,not worldwide.

If you read african comics,the main focus will be on africans,if you read east asian comics the main focus will be on east asians,if you read european comics the main focus will on europeans,if you read comics from india the main focus will be on indians etc..

[Ultra Magnotron]

This opinion is simply unpopular and not really controversial, but I think Glyph is one of the coolest new Marvel superheroes to come out of ANAD Marvel.

Who is Glyph? If you're not reading Howling Commandos of SHIELD, you'll never know. ;-)

She had better be brought into another book once Howling Commandos is canceled... which I expect official announcement on any day now. She is worthy of her own solo, the way I see it.

[mace11]

I think every character in the current Ultimates series has a point to be in the team, even though the series is just an average one in my opinion. But the lineup of Luke Cage's Mighty Avengers completely stupid. It was like there was a rule that they don't apply whites. Even Iron Fist and Jessica Jones weren't on the team and their reasons for this weren't credible at all.

Mighty Avengers (Cage) (Earth-616) - Marvel Database - Wikia

Field Team
Blade, Blue Marvel, Luke Cage, Captain America (Samuel Wilson), Kaluu, Constance Molina, Power Man, She-Hulk, Spectrum, Spider-Man (Otto Octavius), Spider-Man (Peter Parker), White Tiger

Support Team
Dave Griffith, Jessica Jones, Soraya Khorasani, Ruby Neal



Dave Griffith is a white man by the way.

http://marvel.wikia.com/wiki/Mighty_...28Earth-616%29