Sales Discussion: Batman, Bat- Family and Related Titles

[Frontier]

How can DC make Batgirl sell again?

[Dark_Tzitzimine]

If you mean Babs, making her an actual character again instead of just Dick's girlfriend would be an start.

[Fergus]

Huh? Tim as Robin has the longest running solo title of any of the other Robins. I don't understand what you're saying.

And you keep repeating this showing not telling thing while ignoring the evidence that's right there. He traversed the multiverse to rescue Bruce after Failsafe. That alone should cement him. But i'll keep going. When Batman died after Final Crisis he was only one who believed Bruce was alive AND figured out that he was actually lost in time. He took down the League of Assassins on his own. He provided the tech and support for the team when they operated out of the Belfry, to the point where the other geniuses were having a hard time picking up after he "died". And to date is the only Robin to figure out Bruce's identity on his own.

It really seems like you're fixated on this one aspect of Tim despite it being more than backed up, but you ignore it with it with others. Dick has always been the first and best, Jason was the fighter (although now that Damian's here he's just the screw up), but Tim is the greatest Robin and a good detective (despite having the longest tenure, consistent feats, actually figured out Bruce's identity on his own) is an issue?

They are all good detectives and they all have impressive feats. Some at a younger age and
beyond anything that Tim has in canon. damian is demonstrably smarter and by age 10 has just impressive feats that match or surpass some of tim's most impressive. [then again Damian is a parody of Batman tropes taken to the max]

Dick as robin at age 8 was able to do and accomplished feats that were so unbelievable they almost laughable because golden age. The type of capabilities that would never fly in modern comics.

Have you been reading Screenrant? I know they keep repeating that claiming that Tim has the longest tenure but it's no correct.
tim doesn't have the longest tenure. That's still held by Dick.


Tim figuring out Batman and Robin's identities was mainly down to luck, coincidence and observation. He did it in a way that the ave reader could reasonably imagine happening to them. Tim was designed to be representative and relatable to the average teen reader so he figured it out in a manner that could be done by a regular 9/10 year old fan would.

"Tim was intelligent but not a brain. What he was written to be a whiz at/his special skill was computers"

That's how O'neil described him in the Batman bible.

Tim is a great Robin bit he's not the greatest. I also don't thing feats, intelligence or traits like that are the metrics for deciding the greatest.

i don't like discussions about who the greatest/best Robin is. It feels disrespectful since every single Robin has added something to the mantle. Something that's become part of the tropes, trivia so well known by casuals that it's now part of pop culture about the Boy Wonder.

I also hate when writers feel the need to declare someone the great or the best Robin. Just do your job and give us an interesting and compelling Robin doing stuff in a good story. That's what matters.

[Frontier]

If you mean Babs, making her an actual character again instead of just Dick's girlfriend would be an start.

Even just in general though.

Babs' book got canceled and now she's basically just Dicks' girlfriend and Oracle. Even as a co-lead she's mostly just servicing Dick's story.

Cass and Steph couldn't hold a book together.

[Aahz]

Dick as robin at age 8 was able to do and accomplished feats that were so unbelievable they almost laughable because golden age.

Sorry but the age 8 thing is imo nonense.
Even in the golden age if you look a bit closer most evidence points at him being older than that.

And in all "modern" verisons of his orgin and his eraly years he is id something between 11 and 13.
And "modern" includes in this case even the silverage retelling of his origin where he is allready called a teenager.

[marvelprince]

Its not the 90's anymore. Tim as Robin had the first solo title of any of the other Robins but then has been unsellable ever since.

I thought Tim never sold? Goal post moved. First and still longest selling of any Robin ever means nothing smh.

They all have saved Bruce. Thats basic Robin stuff, not "Worlds Greatest" stuff. And 14 years ago when Batman died after Final Crisis he was only one who believed Bruce was alive, but told no one and left Dick to do the work to actually figure it out while he ran off to the middle east to find a cave that shouldn't have existed. He took down the League of Assassins, who sole motivation was him for some reason, by calling in friends. While 10 years ago he provided the tech and support for the team that ultimately rebelled against Batman. Cool. Hardly the stuff of the Greatest, and a footnote compared to what the others have done these last 15 years. Who all have past him in not only notoriety but demand. So ya, its a problem. Especially when others who are in more demand are being buried to sell him as the greatest.

Rescue him sure, that's basic. How many times has Jason strapped on experimental tech and walked across the multiverse for Bruce?

And you acknowledge that Tim did know that Bruce was alive cause he's an excellent detective who's shown and demonstrated that without people just saying it. That's all i wanted.

Which of the other Robin's not only fixes their own tech but supplies Bruce with tech? And upgrades the batcomputer?

It was the title of the story. Like you say Dick is challenged by Raptor who straight up tells him that Batman taught him wrong, but what you leaving out is that he's claiming he would be a better mentor. Better than Batman. That sales pitch from Raptor is what the entire arc is about. They were selling that Raptor would have been a better mentor than Batman. It leaves off with Bruce questioning Dick, but ultimately picks up with Bruce letting himself be kidnapped by Raptor where then Dick and Raptor have it out. They were not selling Dick as better than Batman. Ultimately it was about how Dick is who he is because of Batman. And before Grayson he had to beat Bruce in a fight to prove he was still who Bruce trained him to be after being killed and saved by Bruce. That also was not about proving he was better. Bruce won by Dick winning. These moments were love letters about Bruce.

Sealey himself said in an interview the title was meant to be asked on a few different levels and that fans were free to pick what they wanted. Was it about Dick being better than Batman, about Raptor being a mentor, about Dick's methods and instincts better than Bruce? The answer to all is yes. He wouldn't have said that if the purpose wasn't to at least raise the question. Its marketing, and these guys aren't stupid.

[marvelprince]

They are all good detectives and they all have impressive feats. Some at a younger age and
beyond anything that Tim has in canon. damian is demonstrably smarter and by age 10 has just impressive feats that match or surpass some of tim's most impressive. [then again Damian is a parody of Batman tropes taken to the max]

Dick as robin at age 8 was able to do and accomplished feats that were so unbelievable they almost laughable because golden age. The type of capabilities that would never fly in modern comics.

Have you been reading Screenrant? I know they keep repeating that claiming that Tim has the longest tenure but it's no correct.
tim doesn't have the longest tenure. That's still held by Dick.


Tim figuring out Batman and Robin's identities was mainly down to luck, coincidence and observation. He did it in a way that the ave reader could reasonably imagine happening to them. Tim was designed to be representative and relatable to the average teen reader so he figured it out in a manner that could be done by a regular 9/10 year old fan would.

"Tim was intelligent but not a brain. What he was written to be a whiz at/his special skill was computers"

That's how O'neil described him in the Batman bible.

Tim is a great Robin bit he's not the greatest. I also don't thing feats, intelligence or traits like that are the metrics for deciding the greatest.

i don't like discussions about who the greatest/best Robin is. It feels disrespectful since every single Robin has added something to the mantle. Something that's become part of the tropes, trivia so well known by casuals that it's now part of pop culture about the Boy Wonder.

I also hate when writers feel the need to declare someone the great or the best Robin. Just do your job and give us an interesting and compelling Robin doing stuff in a good story. That's what matters.

I don't read Screenrant. I never mentioned Tim's tenure, I said he had the longest running series of any Robin which is a fact.

It doesn't matter how unimpressive you might think it is, but to date he's still been the only Robin to figure out Batman's identity. In-universe its always been treated as a big deal.

[marvelprince]

Nightwing isn't selling well because because there are more people who love Dick Grayson, it sells well because Tom Taylor is a good writer and Redondo's art is gorgeous. And it's the same with just about ever character not named Batman where their sales rise and fall with the quality of the creative team behind the book.


It's just a flat, objective fact and it's silly to try and pretend otherwise.

Spider-Man says hi. Notice how him and Batman are immune to different creative teams. Its almost like at some point people just want to follow popular characters. Better example, in the height of Bendis's popularity on Avengers/New Avengers he launched a Spider-Woman and a Moon Knight series. He's Marvel's top name at the time, with a popular artist from their critically acclaimed Daredevil run. Everyone expected both books to be huge. Neither made it past 10 issues.

[Godlike13]

I thought Tim never sold? Goal post moved. First and still longest selling of any Robin ever means nothing smh.

Huh, who said he never sold? Point has always been that he doesn’t sell anymore. Your the one moving the goal post by suggesting his situation 30 years ago is still relevant to his current situation. My point has always been that Tim is no longer marketable. Not that he never was marketable.

Rescue him sure, that's basic. How many times has Jason strapped on experimental tech and walked across the multiverse for Bruce?

And you acknowledge that Tim did know that Bruce was alive cause he's an excellent detective who's shown and demonstrated that without people just saying it. That's all i wanted.

Which of the other Robin's not only fixes their own tech but supplies Bruce with tech? And upgrades the batcomputer?

Jason was only Robin for a hot minute, during a time where tech was quite different. But he’s saved Bruce in ways appropriate to his time. They all have. It doesn’t make Tim special. Just like being gifted knowledge doesn’t make him look like an excellent detective.

And who cares if the other Robins don’t supply Bruce with tech. Bruce already has people for that. The Robins shouldn’t be stealing and invalidating those support roles.

Sealey himself said in an interview the title was meant to be asked on a few different levels and that fans were free to pick what they wanted. Was it about Dick being better than Batman, about Raptor being a mentor, about Dick's methods and instincts better than Bruce? The answer to all is yes. He wouldn't have said that if the purpose wasn't to at least raise the question. Its marketing, and these guys aren't stupid.

Ok, so let’s say it’s up to the reader then and Seeley wasn’t just being coy. It is still just raising a question, not making a declaration.

[Fergus]

I don't read Screenrant. I never mentioned Tim's tenure, I said he had the longest running series of any Robin which is a fact.

It doesn't matter how unimpressive you might think it is, but to date he's still been the only Robin to figure out Batman's identity. In-universe its always been treated as a big deal.

My mistake. You are right. While Dick did has solo adventures in the Golden Age [in star Spangled Comics] Like all GA titles at the time it featured other characters so not exactly a solo.

Tim was the first to get a solo and it ran for like 200 issues. That is impressive but again that doesn't make him the greatest Robin. it makes him the Robin to have the longest running solo Robin series.

Is ir a big deal in Universe? Don't recall characters marvelling at that or bringing it up much.

Point is Tim wasn't a brain so the story wasn't a showcase of his great intellect/detective skills. If that's what readers took away then they didn't get it.

All the Batson's repair and build their own tech

Nightwing built his vehicles and Jason builds his own tech.

During their Robin tenure? Damian did all that aside form the multiverse trek though he has saved brought Bruce back to live and saved timBat.

Robin Damian built a flying Bat mobile.
Hacked Tim Drake, The Bat Computer and lex Luthor at age 10.
He's even solved Black Case book files [cases that Bruce couldn't]

As for Tim being a viable seller. He was back when he was only option, Batman 89 exploded all things Batman related and the comics market was experiencing a ridicules boom.

A lot has changed since then. 2 new Bat boys were introduced, the comic boom is over and the readership has declined. There's also the easy and availability of numerous piracy sites.

The market trend has also changed with characters with some edge, flaws and cads seem to be getting more popular.

Tim's RR had decent sales I think, It had similar numbers to RSOB I think

YJ by Bendis didn't perform well despite heavy promo and featuring a beloved group of characters with established fan bases. [The core4 like Tim had great sales back in the 90's but that has changed significantly]

TT by Lobdell also had poor sales
Batman Beyond had low numbers
Robin Eternal like all FS titles went to 2nd Print however actual numbers was one of the Lowest selling Fs titles
Tim's Pride special debuted at #144, which is abysmal
Dc: YJ had very figures and TDR was an embarrassment beaten in sale by jace and punchline.

Tim's figures aren't what they used to be . It's not that he's never sold. It's that he hasn't in a while. A lot of characters thrived in the 90's. Everything thrived in the 90's [heck even Liefeld''s ridiculous ripoffs made so much bank back then]

DC keeps investing and his figs keeps declining.

FYI when Bruce was thought dead and Tim kept saying he was alive. That wasn't anything to do with detective skills . He said it was a gut feeling. He had no proof. lets stop doing this.
Dick in London with squire and Knight were the ones who got the proof that showed that Bruce was alive.

[Fergus]

Does being called the best/greatest over and over even help tim? I don't think that it's such a selling point. On the contrary, I feel it might actually be hurting Tim.

It makes him seem note and boring. Writers in the recent past have really gone in tagging the smart one. Shaved down to a single trait. That's can't be good.

The others don't single traited as often which might be adding to why they are all more Popular.

[Rac7d*]

Does being called the best/greatest over and over even help tim? I don't think that it's such a selling point. On the contrary, I feel it might actually be hurting Tim.

It makes him seem note and boring. Writers in the recent past have really gone in tagging the smart one. Shaved down to a single trait. That's can't be good.

The others don't single traited as often which might be adding to why they are all more Popular.

He’s peaked at 17

[Frontier]

I think the elephant in the room is the Bat-office is struggling to get anyone to sell that's not Bruce, Dick, or surprisingly Poison Ivy.

[Aahz]

Jason was only Robin for a hot minute, during a time where tech was quite different. But he’s saved Bruce in ways appropriate to his time. They all have. It doesn’t make Tim special. Just like being gifted knowledge doesn’t make him look like an excellent detective.

You can in general not really compare comics from Dick, Jason's and Tim's original times as Robin with the current comics, there has just been a massive "power creep" over the years.

I mean back in the golden/silver age there were times when Batman would usually loose when had to fight 3 thugs at the same time, today he can take out entire armies without breaking a sweat.

And especially during Jason time the tech was also way more grounded, that Batmobil back than wasn't much more than a tuned sports car.

[Bat-Meal]

I think the elephant in the room is the Bat-office is struggling to get anyone to sell that's not Bruce, Dick, or surprisingly Poison Ivy.

Well, a bunch of bad TV shows and games (and a cancelled film) hasn't helped the Bat-Family's appeal lately IMHO.

Only thing I think might work is an actual Bat-Family book again, like Tynions 'Tec run, but once again it would have to include Batman and feature him prominently.