Spider-Man character growth vs. staying in high school and Joe Quesada

[wleakr]

So instead of asking for "better", because the current material is not good, we should instead just "Don't ask questions, consume product and get excited for the next product"?

Nothing wrong with asking for "better".

But if the ask is based on one's perception that the current material "is not good", you can't expect Marvel to act on that.

EVERYONE doesn't share that sentiment.

And for those that are enjoying the current content, there are fans that question their enjoyment as "it's obvious this comic is bad, why don't you want more?"

Your bolded statement shouldn't occur. If you don't enjoy the product, you shouldn't consume OR get excited about it. Question, yes. Suggest, yes. But if you're still (hate) buying, who's fault is that?

[wleakr]

I have no qualms about voicing my desire for higher quality standards especially when book prices have exceeded the inflation rate of those classic stories and Marvel put out a statement this very month defending the price hikes as a result of giving readers only the “highest quality” comics and talent in the whole industry.

They promise “the best”. Paying customers - you and I included - should expect and demand it in turn.

This is not @ you Garlador, just quoting cuz you mention the price thing and I thought it was funny...

Not sure why Marvel (Buckley) even bothered addressing that.

Every price increase ever has always come with the "promise" of higher quality and the company working harder to "earn" that increase...lol!

Always just a test to see if folks will buy and if it works, raise the whole line to the higher price point. Then when other companies see Marvel get away with it, they jump on board.

Gotta luv it!

[Lee]

There should be someone at Marvel taking a look at information like what digital comics are selling more than others, or what comics get more views on the unlimited platform.

I vaguely remember someone from Marvel saying that back-issues of Spider-Man that Venom showed up in did well digitally. I think it was around the time the Flash Thompson Venom series launched, but I don't recall whether it was an interview, a convention panel, a blog post or something else.

Saying that someone accepts repetitive comics is explicitly not saying that someone wants bad comics. TOM & JERRY is repetitive and I LOVE TOM & JERRY.

Telling someone that they accept slop, that they accept substandard comics, and that they need to raise their standards, is saying that they want bad comics. It's condescending, it's rude, and it isn't conducive to a civil, adult conversation. It's a disproportionate response to a no stakes conversation about a super hero comic.

[Vegan]

Are we really going to pretend you weren’t being rude and condescending to Daibhidh in the exact same post where you complained someone else wasn’t being civil? Feels very “pot calling the kettle black”

[Hurricane Billy]

Telling someone that they accept slop, that they accept substandard comics, and that they need to raise their standards, is saying that they want bad comics. It's condescending, it's rude, and it isn't conducive to a civil, adult conversation. It's a disproportionate response to a no stakes conversation about a super hero comic.

Considering that everyone's opinions on comics are inherently subjective and that there'll always be dissenting opinions on any topic in the first place, I think there's enough wiggle room here for groups of fans to express their lack of satisfaction with certain comics and advocate for changes in approach from the creatives who make them with the intent of that hopefully leading to better material being released as a result. It's just the other side of the coin to fans like yourself who write in positive fan letters who enjoy what's currently out there.

For example, I love JMS's run on ASM and especially JMD's run on Spectacular. And from what I can tell in talking with other fans online and at comic shops, I'd wager that's the common consensus. But I'd be shocked if either of those runs never once received a negative fan letter from anyone who personally disliked the creative direction of those runs. I just don't take it personally if someone disagrees with me about liking something I hate or not liking something that I do like.

Heck, sometimes you like a comic that isn't necessarily as popular with the wider demographic of readers! It happens! I'm personally very happy and invested in Peach Momoko's new Ultimate X-Men run and had a lengthy debate with a group of naysayers who personally weren't getting along with the book at my local comic book shop this past weekend when I went in for Free Comic Book Day. I still disagreed with the others' views on the book and they clearly still disagreed with mine when the conversation ended, but I personally at least felt everyone involved had a civil and engaging discussion about what our individual takes on the book were like.

[Mister Mets]

If the only way to fit your definition of civil is to self-censor to that level, then to hell with being civil. I’ve always felt it’s better to be honest than polite anyways.

We're probably overthinking a slip of the tongue from Garlador but we should generally try to disagree without being disagreeable, and insulting someone's taste falls in the latter category.

No it isn’t. If you don’t want the character to grow, and to stay in high school, then you can just read flashback stories like Shadow of the Green Goblin or Spidey, and, then the mainline comics can have actual character growth again. Then everybody wins. You can read the character in the status quo you prefer, and fans who want to see a character develop still get what they want

It doesn't quite work that way. Copied and pasted from elsewhere.

Most Untold Tales projects combine the insignificance of the TV show/ movie tie‑ins, with a less accessible world. The stories have to fit in the old framework of the past of the real Marvel Universe, which suggests that nothing important can happen. There’s less drama than in the regular comics, as the reader will know exactly how things will end for the hero, main villains and most of the supporting cast.

Writers can play around with this, as Kurt Busiek did in his Untold Tales of Spider‑Man run and Brian K Vaughan did in his mini‑series Spider‑Man/ Doctor Octopus: Negative Exposure by focusing on new supporting cast members. They can also try taking advantage of dramatic irony with existing characters as Lee Weeks did in his excellent Death & Destiny mini-series, but many constraints remain. The dramatic irony strategy requires a reader to be familiar with the older material.

Long‑term subplots involving the private lives of characters are also more difficult, as in most cases readers will be convinced that things will work out fine, and decades old comics will usually prove them right. When they show conflict in a relationship, most readers will be aware of how that relationship will eventually come to an end, or that it’ll be strong enough to last into the present day Marvel U. Low sales on a few earlier critically acclaimed projects set in the past might scare away some readers, unwilling to invest in a book more likely than not to be a sales failure, and thus less likely to lead to interesting future stories. This is more of an occasional short-form structure for mini-series and possible OGNs than anything to be relied on for the long-term.

I vaguely remember someone from Marvel saying that back-issues of Spider-Man that Venom showed up in did well digitally. I think it was around the time the Flash Thompson Venom series launched, but I don't recall whether it was an interview, a convention panel, a blog post or something else.



Telling someone that they accept slop, that they accept substandard comics, and that they need to raise their standards, is saying that they want bad comics. It's condescending, it's rude, and it isn't conducive to a civil, adult conversation. It's a disproportionate response to a no stakes conversation about a super hero comic.

Checking what's popular digitally seems like a no-brainer thing to do.

It's useful for Marvel to know what characters, writers and artists get more readers.

The most useful detail would be to find out what stories keep more of their readers (IE- where do you see the lowest dropoff from Issue 1 to Issue 2?)

Saying that someone accepts repetitive comics is explicitly not saying that someone wants bad comics. TOM & JERRY is repetitive and I LOVE TOM & JERRY.

The specific word that was used was "substandard."

[Konnik92]

Nothing wrong with asking for "better".

But if the ask is based on one's perception that the current material "is not good", you can't expect Marvel to act on that.

EVERYONE doesn't share that sentiment.

And for those that are enjoying the current content, there are fans that question their enjoyment as "it's obvious this comic is bad, why don't you want more?"

Your bolded statement shouldn't occur. If you don't enjoy the product, you shouldn't consume OR get excited about it. Question, yes. Suggest, yes. But if you're still (hate) buying, who's fault is that?

This isn't "one's perception" that the current material isn't good - it's something that the majority has been voicing about very much (despite some people thinking they are "a loud minority"). Just look at the sales for USM compared to ASM - a spin-off title is outselling an ongoing flagship title, causing many reprints each of it's issues. Even the current issue of USM, which has no action in it at all, has outsold the last two issues of ASM (and that has happened with the previous issues as well, just a reminder).

[Kaitou D. Kid]

This isn't "one's perception" that the current material isn't good - it's something that the majority has been voicing about very much (despite some people thinking they are "a loud minority"). Just look at the sales for USM compared to ASM - a spin-off title is outselling an ongoing flagship title, causing many reprints each of it's issues. Even the current issue of USM, which has no action in it at all, has outsold the last two issues of ASM (and that has happened with the previous issues as well, just a reminder).

This.

I mean, it's clear what the general consensus is. And sometimes people can disagree with it, and if you do it sucks. I've been on both sides. I love Hank Pym and want him to be a bigger chatacter. I love his characterization in Bendis' run and EMH. Most people feel differently, though. Most people watched the MCU where he is just a background character, or (in the case of comic fans) still think of the wife hitting thing and all the baggage from years ago. Tried changing people's minds in debates, but so far that hasn't rippled into anything.

Sometimes it happens.

[wleakr]

This isn't "one's perception" that the current material isn't good - it's something that the majority has been voicing about very much (despite some people thinking they are "a loud minority"). Just look at the sales for USM compared to ASM - a spin-off title is outselling an ongoing flagship title, causing many reprints each of it's issues. Even the current issue of USM, which has no action in it at all, has outsold the last two issues of ASM (and that has happened with the previous issues as well, just a reminder).

USM is outselling ALL books, not just ASM. It’s not an USM vs ASM thing.

I don’t know if the majority is not liking the book. But if that is the case and this majority is (hate) buying ASM, who’s fault is that?

[Konnik92]

USM is outselling ALL books, not just ASM. It’s not an USM vs ASM thing.

I don’t know if the majority is not liking the book. But if that is the case and this majority is (hate) buying ASM, who’s fault is that?

Why are you fixed on the "(hate) buying"? It should be obvious to people that if they don't want to read a specific book, they simply shouldn't buy it. If people don't want to read Wells's ASM, they simply won't and buy something else instead. "(Hate) buying" is just counterproductive. It's like widening the roads, thinking that it will improve traffic, but will actually just encourage more people to drive.

[wleakr]

Why are you fixed on the "(hate) buying"? It should be obvious to people that if they don't want to read a specific book, they simply shouldn't buy it. If people don't want to read Wells's ASM, they simply won't and buy something else instead. "(Hate) buying" is just counterproductive. It's like widening the roads, thinking that it will improve traffic, but will actually just encourage more people to drive.

That's the spirit!

Let's remove the "hate" out of it (which I don't care to use either).

Folks are buying ASM because they LIKE the book.

While it is not currently at #1, it does appear to be in the top 10 on a regular basis.

And if your in the top 10, the majority of fans must like what they are consuming.

Cuz, as you state, if they didn't like it, they wouldn't buy it.

[Hurricane Billy]

That's the spirit!

Let's remove the "hate" out of it (which I don't care to use either).

Folks are buying ASM because they LIKE the book.

While it is not currently at #1, it does appear to be in the top 10 on a regular basis.

And if your in the top 10, the majority of fans must like what they are consuming.

Considering that USM is apparently outselling ASM to 2-to-1, I would say that heavily suggests that this is not the case.

It's just that the majority of fans who bother to buy and read the book are likely onboard, but there's very clearly a sizable demographic of fans who aren't buying and reading the book and are far more satisfied with what's going over in Earth-6160.

ASM is leaving money on the table with its current status quo. What we're seeing here is likely the base floor, not the roof.

[wleakr]

Considering that USM is apparently outselling ASM to 2-to-1, I would say that heavily suggests that this is not the case.

It's just that the majority of fans who bother to buy and read the book are likely onboard, but there's very clearly a sizable demographic of fans who aren't buying and reading the book and are far more satisfied with what's going over in Earth-6160.

ASM is leaving money on the table with its current status quo. What we're seeing here is likely the base floor, not the roof.

USM is outselling ALL books. So every comic company must also be leaving money on the table.

I wish all those companies, and their respective comic titles, luck in finding all that money that's being left behind.

And just because USM is outselling all other books, does not mean that folks purchasing those other titles are not liking what they buy.

[Hurricane Billy]

USM is outselling ALL books. So every comic company must also be leaving money on the table.

I wish all those companies, and their respective comic titles, luck in finding all that money that's being left behind.

And just because USM is outselling all other books, does not mean that folks purchasing those other titles are not liking what they buy.

So your argument here is that, since USM is selling so well that it's wiping the floor with the rest of the market, there's no lesson or creative takeaway that Marvel should be having right now for what to do to bolster up ASM in the long haul? It generally being near or at the top of sales while actively leaving over twice the amount of possible sales by continuing to double down on a status quo that less than half of potential fans are interested in and enjoy, they're golden to keep at it since Spider-Man is already the most popular superhero on the planet anyway?

Now I'm no expert in finances, but that's certainly a creative sales approach in a dying industry.

[Konnik92]

That's the spirit!

Let's remove the "hate" out of it (which I don't care to use either).

Folks are buying ASM because they LIKE the book.

While it is not currently at #1, it does appear to be in the top 10 on a regular basis.

And if your in the top 10, the majority of fans must like what they are consuming.

Cuz, as you state, if they didn't like it, they wouldn't buy it.

Each month, a single issue of USM is outselling 2 issues of ASM. How exactly "the majority" likes and buys the title, when the other title has more sales?

I don't want to continue with this any further, because I believe we're getting off topic. There's a seperate thread in the community forum, where we can talk about the sales.