Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2024

[Dam]

Renew Your Vows was a wonderful way to see both of Marvel's two most popular characters in happy marriages and equal partnerships. Would like to see more Jean/Logan children besides just adorable Kate. Jean is already in the running for being Marvel's most popular female character (I'd say Storm and Wanda are the other two most likely contenders) and having her name next to the second most popular Marvel character of all time (and presumably third or fourth most popular comic book hero) just cements that.

Renew your vows was a way to see how terrible are Jean and Logan. Jean is so afraid of her own control, she doesn't trust herself and thinks she needs to be policed and control by others. This is a woman who doesn't trust herself, even though, funny how Logan chooses to live in a police state so he can finally be with Jean.
I don't see this as a happy universe but a terrible one for her.

[Mercury]

Also, I got a theory after reading X-men Forever: Marvel is undoing the Jean and the Phoenix Force being separate entities

Jean has been resurrected, is coherent and sees all. At the same time, she is just not "whole" yet. The Phoenix force was also dying and got brought back (through the resurrection of Jean, reinforcing Jean = Phoenix and vice versa), but given the fear of being ended, it came back as the force (separate entity) and is running to find a way to protect itself. My feeling is that this is the process that Marvel is developing to remove the current status of the two being separate entities, by having the Hope-led rebirth of the Phoenix force be the final step in bringing the true Jean/Phoenix back as One, making Jean Grey complete, as originally intended. Therefore, Jean Grey will no longer be characterized as the "perfect host" because she IS the Phoenix.

With the upcoming solo, Tom saying Jean was always Phoenix, Marvel stats listing, X-men97, it seems like this development is crucial to establish her new role/identity moving forward. But watch me be wrong lol just my thoughts after everything going on with Jean right now.

I love this. I agree with many of your points but definitely want to add more later. This week has been grueling, so I need to rest.

[SugarMan]

I don’tvthink the Phoenix has been “rebirthed” yet. They first have to kill it off in the WHR. Jean is telling Hope that she has to do it. The Phoenix has never been “ended” begore, which is why it’s resisting. Jean says it’s very afraid, and it would almost be a mercy to end it’s current state if being. Once that job is done, it will trigger the rebirth of Phoenix and Jean fully.

[Mercury]

Thank you for this beautiful defense of Jean. I haven't read the Krakoa era so I don't have the same closure you do. I still cannot forgive Scott for his sins against Jean and frankly, I think some things are unforgivable. It's not just one thing but multiple as you've eloquently listed out. With comic book continuity, where time never passes and writers often ignore what other writers put down on the page before them, it's easy to move along and ignore prior history. But if Jean and Scott were real people and he did all these things to her, I'd warn her to go as far away from him as possible. He's bad news, all the way back to when he couldn't mourn her alleged death and was already looking at Colleen Wing. It took Storm to call him out and she truly showed more affection for Jean than Scott ever did. Similarly, how quickly he moved on after Jean's real death with Lee Forrester was also disturbing, enough that fans were shocked and horrified and poured into the letter pages to display their contempt for this. It's also implied that Scott and Lee were intimate on the island when they were stranded and alone together. I found that odd too since Scott is relatively shy and it's implied that he and Jean only consummated their love during TDPS (UXM #132). Classic X-Men backstories seemed to suggest that Jean's date with Scott on Christmas (UXM #98) was the night they were first going to consummate their relationship. So the fact that they only were intimate once after years of a relationship, but right after her death, Scott's already shacking up with Lee rubbed me the wrong way and others as well.

Perhaps the Krakoan era redeems him. I'm not sure. I now see Logan as not only being a better fit for her overall personality but also one who has never wronged her like Scott has repeatedly. Lorna fans have realized how toxic Alex was to Lorna since she's always wronged by him no matter the era or writer. I'm seeing the same with Jean and Scott and both women should be kept safe from problematic Summers brothers. Someone should go back in time and tell Stan or Roy Thomas that Jean should be paired with Warren because she'll be spared so much harm in the long run. Not to mention, being fridged for 14 years, which Joe Q literally said was done to develop Cyclops so he could hook up with that fake blonde hussy. MJ got the same treatment with OMD so it's not even exclusive to Jean.

Also being linked to Wolverine has helped Jean in the long run. Had Joe Q not refused to let Jean come back, she could have been on the New Avengers with Wolverine, Spider-Man, Captain America, Iron Man, Spider-Woman, etc. In the movies she got more screentime because she was Wolverine's love interest and the trilogy's epic love story. She was able to appear in more films than just the trilogy because of her role in The Wolverine. Now the Insomniac video game will give Jean a new huge platform and co-star status as the second most important X-Man after Wolverine. The Spider-Man Insomniac games have outsold all the Batman Arkhan games, despite the Spider-Man games being exclusive to Playstation so imagine how the Wolverine game will sell. Wolverine will always trump any other love interest because he's the second most popular Marvel character of all time after Spider-Man. In the Wolverine thread, it's even mentioned that his solo book outsells Batman and is second to only Spider-Man's solo, which is why Jean will always benefit from having her name linked to his, which is already the case in popular culture where people see Jean as Wolverine's girlfriend or ill-fated love. Even as far back as the late 90s, Marvel confirmed that having covers where Jean and Wolverine kiss always boosted sales so it shows what's really popular with the masses.

Renew Your Vows was a wonderful way to see both of Marvel's two most popular characters in happy marriages and equal partnerships. Would like to see more Jean/Logan children besides just adorable Kate. Jean is already in the running for being Marvel's most popular female character (I'd say Storm and Wanda are the other two most likely contenders) and having her name next to the second most popular Marvel character of all time (and presumably third or fourth most popular comic book hero) just cements that.

I think your post deserves a reply, but I realized I was going to reply with the same points I just made in Scott's thread, so I'll just quote that post. (Work and school have me on the brink of burnout, but I'm hanging in there!):

I apologize for popping in here and focusing only on what I consider to be Scott's insensitive and downright disrespectful behavior toward Jean. It was a reflexive response to a few fans who framed Jean's actions and history in a way I found ridiculously one-sided, blind-spotted, and offensive. It was also a rehashing of my former gripes with Scott. I was able to forgive him after reading his adult and teenage arcs during the time-displacement era, when, as an adult, I found him incredibly compelling and alluring and, as a teenager, I found him relatable and endearing. And I loved his and Jean's arc during that era, too, which I feel was handled brilliantly, with both facing aspects of themselves, each other, and their relationship that informed their recoupling.

I've already said what I had to say about Krakoa, but I'll add this: I found Scott's behavior toward Jean during this era both supremely sensitive and incredibly sexy. It's almost as if he recognized how much mortal time she lost and how much of a toll repeatedly dying and coming back took on her. Not to mention what she endured from Phoenix Resurrection to Age of X-Man, including contending with his death and the murder of her family, Xavier's betrayal of her and the rest of the O5, her remembrance of her time-displacement and all that she learned through that while her adult self was still in the White Hot Room, and, of course, her son's madness. They didn't speak much, if at all, about any of this, but I think that's why he encouraged her to lead and accepted her having an affair with Logan and was just generally open to whatever she wanted to do. It was like he was finally telling her, "Ha! Live, Jean. Live." Frankly, it made me fall in love with him again.

Scott is a beautifully flawed and heroic character, as is his wife, and they both survived traumatic childhoods and traumatic young adulthoods, committing grave mistakes and singular heroic acts along the way. What makes them inspiring and relatable as both individuals and a couple is that they're not perfect. I understand why Jean loves him. I can't deny that I find him attractive, too. And, of course, I understand why he's never been able to truly move on from Jean. Ultimately, I think they're in a place now brimming with potential. One thing I loved about the Krakoan era is that they both allowed each other the space and time to do what they each wanted while also deeply respecting and understanding one another. That's one thing I loved about the Brood arc. They went toe to toe, but ultimately, they compromised for each other. Jean gave Scott the respect he deserved as a leader and didn't stand in his way after he didn't back down about wanting to destroy the Brood. In turn, Scott gave Jean what she wanted by letting her save the Brood under Broo's control.

I want the best for them both. That's all.

[Phoenixx9]

I love this. I agree with many of your points but definitely want to add more later. This week has been grueling, so I need to rest.

Oh so much for me as well!

Get some rest luv and take care of yourself!

[whitecrown]

Renew your vows was a way to see how terrible are Jean and Logan. Jean is so afraid of her own control, she doesn't trust herself and thinks she needs to be policed and control by others. This is a woman who doesn't trust herself, even though, funny how Logan chooses to live in a police state so he can finally be with Jean.
I don't see this as a happy universe but a terrible one for her.

That was one thing I didn't like and I also don't see Logan as being someone who feels Jean needs to cage the beast (to quote X-Men: The Last Stand). He would help her learn how to express and harness her powers without fear of losing complete control. And I think she could find that balance with him rather than the more repressed Scott who chafed against her new persona as Phoenix even in the 616 reality and struggled to accept her. A bit like that What If? Wedding Album story where the second scenario was a universe where Jean (after becoming Phoenix) finds Logan a better outlet for her passions and doesn't feel the need to deny herself. The first scenario was of course one where Jean fell in love with Warren instead and that's also a coupling I'd like to see more often.

[whitecrown]

I love this. I agree with many of your points but definitely want to add more later. This week has been grueling, so I need to rest.

Please get some rest! I know this has been a very heavy content week for Jean so you've probably been doing a lot of work in that regard as well.

I think your post deserves a reply, but I realized I was going to reply with the same points I just made in Scott's thread, so I'll just quote that post. (Work and school have me on the brink of burnout, but I'm hanging in there!):

This is another beautiful post. Your words always remind me of poetry. I'm glad you defended Jean because I see in the Scott thread, they are always finding ways of dissing her and I often get dragged there to defend her when I see some rather biased and completely unscrupulous comments about her. Particularly labeling her a cheat which really takes the cake considering who they are all there to stan. I've found that I'm able to forgive Scott when I read him in older stories or watch him in other media (X-Men: Evolution was my fav rendition of the character) but in general, whenever I read him in the comics, he comes across as too stained and too damaged for me to move past everything he was. As I said sometime ago in the Cyclops thread, I realized it wasn't even fourteen years of her being dead and having writers and editorial talk about how she deserved to remain dead because Scott was better off without her that infuriated me nearly as much as how his so-called fans lapped that up. These are the same ones who think because we've moved on from the dark age, where Cyclops is no longer the center of the X-Universe, that this means he is being demeaned and cuckolded. As I told them, the only reason it feels like he's less significant is because they're used to a time when he was more or less the only significant character. They mock Jean and claim Storm is a Mary Sue because these generally male fans have an inability to accept strong women who are equals to the men (if not outright superior). The reason they can tolerate a fake blonde (whose name I will never sully this thread with) is because she's a Barbie for them. Someone they can hang onto his arm as eye candy to show that he's the man. Jean has never needed to be objectified that way and it's that lack of male gaze awareness which is why they can't understand her or condone her. I really see a pattern that many who resonated with Wrongclops could be accurately described as incels. Same twisted sense of morality, demeaning standards for women, and skewed ideas of power and how that is what defines you rather than what type of person you should be. Characters like Jean and Storm possess great power but the feelings they bear for others and their relationships are far more significant to them.

Hearing that Scott allowed Jean to have her affair with Logan because he knew she needed this, and not only needed it but deserved it, does give me more respect for him from how you describe it. Despite the claims by some that he is being cuckolded, it just shows how secure and strong of a man he really is. I still don't know if that erases all the bad feelings in my heart but it's a start anyway. Jean has a connection with Logan, that according to Claremont, was even deeper and more insightful than that she has with Scott, so I'm glad she was allowed a brief chance to explore it. And frankly, I don't think she requires her husband's permission, even if it's nice he's giving her his blessing, because heaven knows he's never been able to be faithful. Jean has far too much morality and pride in herself and her marriage to stoop to his level to conduct an illicit affair.

[Dam]

That was one thing I didn't like and I also don't see Logan as being someone who feels Jean needs to cage the beast (to quote X-Men: The Last Stand). He would help her learn how to express and harness her powers without fear of losing complete control. And I think she could find that balance with him rather than the more repressed Scott who chafed against her new persona as Phoenix even in the 616 reality and struggled to accept her. A bit like that What If? Wedding Album story where the second scenario was a universe where Jean (after becoming Phoenix) finds Logan a better outlet for her passions and doesn't feel the need to deny herself. The first scenario was of course one where Jean fell in love with Warren instead and that's also a coupling I'd like to see more often.

I don't see the need to drag Scott in this conversation. The idea that Scott is repressed and unable to accept Jean's powers overlooks the complexity of their relationship. Besides, Jean and Scott connection goes beyond her powers. They share a history and a deep emotional bond that has been tested time and time again. Their relationship has been portrayed as a partnership of equals, with Scott providing stability and support for Jean, and Jean offering him understanding and strength in return.

Throughout the comics, Jean's struggles with her abilitie are central to her character arc. Saying that Logan would help her learn how to express it is kind of ironic, when he is known for not control himself and never think about consequences. There are multiples examples of Wolverine trying to control Jean in 616 while Scott has been more supportive with her. Those alternate scenarios are just for explorations of possibilities rather than definitive proof of one character being a better match for Jean than another, and there's a reason why in all those scenarios there's no depth and they have to force the relationship while destroying elements of each character.

[CapCyke]

Please get some rest! I know this has been a very heavy content week for Jean so you've probably been doing a lot of work in that regard as well.



This is another beautiful post. Your words always remind me of poetry. I'm glad you defended Jean because I see in the Scott thread, they are always finding ways of dissing her and I often get dragged there to defend her when I see some rather biased and completely unscrupulous comments about her. Particularly labeling her a cheat which really takes the cake considering who they are all there to stan. I've found that I'm able to forgive Scott when I read him in older stories or watch him in other media (X-Men: Evolution was my fav rendition of the character) but in general, whenever I read him in the comics, he comes across as too stained and too damaged for me to move past everything he was. As I said sometime ago in the Cyclops thread, I realized it wasn't even fourteen years of her being dead and having writers and editorial talk about how she deserved to remain dead because Scott was better off without her that infuriated me nearly as much as how his so-called fans lapped that up. These are the same ones who think because we've moved on from the dark age, where Cyclops is no longer the center of the X-Universe, that this means he is being demeaned and cuckolded. As I told them, the only reason it feels like he's less significant is because they're used to a time when he was more or less the only significant character. They mock Jean and claim Storm is a Mary Sue because these generally male fans have an inability to accept strong women who are equals to the men (if not outright superior). The reason they can tolerate a fake blonde (whose name I will never sully this thread with) is because she's a Barbie for them. Someone they can hang onto his arm as eye candy to show that he's the man. Jean has never needed to be objectified that way and it's that lack of male gaze awareness which is why they can't understand her or condone her. I really see a pattern that many who resonated with Wrongclops could be accurately described as incels. Same twisted sense of morality, demeaning standards for women, and skewed ideas of power and how that is what defines you rather than what type of person you should be. Characters like Jean and Storm possess great power but the feelings they bear for others and their relationships are far more significant to them.

Hearing that Scott allowed Jean to have her affair with Logan because he knew she needed this, and not only needed it but deserved it, does give me more respect for him from how you describe it. Despite the claims by some that he is being cuckolded, it just shows how secure and strong of a man he really is. I still don't know if that erases all the bad feelings in my heart but it's a start anyway. Jean has a connection with Logan, that according to Claremont, was even deeper and more insightful than that she has with Scott, so I'm glad she was allowed a brief chance to explore it. And frankly, I don't think she requires her husband's permission, even if it's nice he's giving her his blessing, because heaven knows he's never been able to be faithful. Jean has far too much morality and pride in herself and her marriage to stoop to his level to conduct an illicit affair.

We can compare Jean's connection with Logan to Scott's as much as you want. The most important and long-standing constant in this triangle is that Scott is the man she loves above all else. The man she proposed to, the man she raised Cable with for a decade, and the one she has always chosen, no matter the era or her complicated feelings for Wolverine.

We can always debate about who is the best man for her, (i like him, but Logan is not that guy) she never has this doute in her history. It's the most importante point in this discussion.

[Exodus]

just wondering if Jean is finally becoming completely "whole" again after all those years if this means she needs to merge with Hope (one of her versions) and Madelyne (another one of her still alive Phoenix Force copies).

I like both characters a lot after the last couple of years and hope they will stay their own autonomous characters.

[Braxxer]

That was one thing I didn't like and I also don't see Logan as being someone who feels Jean needs to cage the beast (to quote X-Men: The Last Stand). He would help her learn how to express and harness her powers without fear of losing complete control. And I think she could find that balance with him rather than the more repressed Scott who chafed against her new persona as Phoenix even in the 616 reality and struggled to accept her. A bit like that What If? Wedding Album story where the second scenario was a universe where Jean (after becoming Phoenix) finds Logan a better outlet for her passions and doesn't feel the need to deny herself. The first scenario was of course one where Jean fell in love with Warren instead and that's also a coupling I'd like to see more often.

Tbh jean is nothing more than a token or some reward in Wolverine’s stories. Wolverine is supposed to be a symbol of (toxic) masculinity. Many writers and fans see him as that bad guy with big heart who doesn’t care and does whatever he wants to. And where is Jean in his story? Jean is nothing more than that good girl next door. She’s some kind of idea of life Logan can dream about. After all Logan calls himself a poison in Jean’s life because he sees her as a goody two shoes who follows rules and Logan is that bad guy from romcoms who shows that good girl there is much more from life.

To sum up jean will always be seen as a reward in Logan’s stories. Here we have a "bad guy" who gets the most popular girl (even though he acts like a creep) and "steals" her from the golden boy

[dr237]

We can compare Jean's connection with Logan to Scott's as much as you want. The most important and long-standing constant in this triangle is that Scott is the man she loves above all else. The man she proposed to, the man she raised Cable with for a decade, and the one she has always chosen, no matter the era or her complicated feelings for Wolverine.

We can always debate about who is the best man for her, (i like him, but Logan is not that guy) she never has this doute in her history. It's the most importante point in this discussion.

I posted this in the Cyclops appreciation, but i think it fits with your point, so I am sharing here:

Correct me if I’m wrong but although Scott has been depicted as pissed at Logan because of his behavior towards Jean, I can’t recall an instance in all the years for of the forced triangle of Scott depicted as threatened or upset by Jean’s behavior towards Logan (which I have always interpreted as an attraction based on similarities—-like Logan, Jean hasn’t always understood who/what she is and what she is capable of doing…and in Morrison’s run she didn’t go to Logan out of desire, but sadness and loneliness caused by feeling disconnected from Scott), which suggests a true understanding of her, as well as a genuine confidence in himself and their relationship. This dynamic is flipped on two occasions of Jean’s discovery of the flirtation with Psylocke and the psychic affair with Emma. In both cases she directs her anger fully at the women. So, Scott and Jean are imperfect but will ultimately choose each other and forgive each other...

[PyroFN]

Tbh jean is nothing more than a token or some reward in Wolverine’s stories. Wolverine is supposed to be a symbol of (toxic) masculinity. Many writers and fans see him as that bad guy with big heart who doesn’t care and does whatever he wants to. And where is Jean in his story? Jean is nothing more than that good girl next door. She’s some kind of idea of life Logan can dream about. After all Logan calls himself a poison in Jean’s life because he sees her as a goody two shoes who follows rules and Logan is that bad guy from romcoms who shows that good girl there is much more from life.

To sum up jean will always be seen as a reward in Logan’s stories. Here we have a "bad guy" who gets the most popular girl (even though he acts like a creep) and "steals" her from the golden boy

This take is so tone deaf and absolutely misses the point of both Jean’s and Wolverine’s characters. Not just their relationship. Their characters.

Wolverine is not a picture of toxic masculinity. That would be on par with calling Gambit a mere criminal, Emma Frost a slut, or Magneto a villain. This is one of the few times I would outright call someone out for having a bad opinion. This is one of those times.

Wolverine is the picture of a tortured soul who makes the hard choices so that everyone else doesn’t have to. He is the killer who hypocritically calls out younger characters for thinking about following the same path because he knows you can’t go back once you cross that line.

Jean Grey is the first person of the original X-Men who openly welcomed Wolverine to the mansion and saw past his own faults where he cannot. She is that person who calls him out when she sees his bull (and she is even wrong when she does it at times, showing her own flaws in the process),



And she offers comfort where he needs it. She is one of his best friends and you demeaning that demonstrates you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about. I like Scott and Jean just fine. I like Logan and Jean just fine. I prefer Jean as her own woman. But this is just outright slander to both characters and I am not okay with that.

[Havok83]

just wondering if Jean is finally becoming completely "whole" again after all those years if this means she needs to merge with Hope (one of her versions) and Madelyne (another one of her still alive Phoenix Force copies).

I like both characters a lot after the last couple of years and hope they will stay their own autonomous characters.

I think Hope definitely will sacrifice herself to resurrect the Phoenix and Jean. I dont think Madelyne will be involved in any parts of this bc it would seem out of place now considering Gillen hasnt even been hinting at her. He's really played into the Holy Trinity aspect with Hope, Jean and Rachel and Maddie just hasnt factored into any of that

ETA:

Jean's new costume is looking good here

[CapCyke]

I posted this in the Cyclops appreciation, but i think it fits with your point, so I am sharing here:

Correct me if I’m wrong but although Scott has been depicted as pissed at Logan because of his behavior towards Jean, I can’t recall an instance in all the years for of the forced triangle of Scott depicted as threatened or upset by Jean’s behavior towards Logan (which I have always interpreted as an attraction based on similarities—-like Logan, Jean hasn’t always understood who/what she is and what she is capable of doing…and in Morrison’s run she didn’t go to Logan out of desire, but sadness and loneliness caused by feeling disconnected from Scott), which suggests a true understanding of her, as well as a genuine confidence in himself and their relationship. This dynamic is flipped on two occasions of Jean’s discovery of the flirtation with Psylocke and the psychic affair with Emma. In both cases she directs her anger fully at the women. So, Scott and Jean are imperfect but will ultimately choose each other and forgive each other...

Exactly, her so-called strong connection with Wolverine was never strong enough to make her question her feelings for Scott.

And that's precisely a point many forget when comparing Jott vs Jogan. The debate never existed in Jean's mind, and as you mentioned, Cyclops never felt threatened by this incredible connection between them.

As for Wolverine, I feel like Logan deserves more than being the side dish in an open marriage or the one who looks sadly from afar at the woman he can never have, as depicted in the comics of the past or currently in X-Men 97. But if my girl can have a little fun why not, it was awful to read for me but why not.