Jean Grey / Phoenix Appreciation 2024

[whitecrown]

Jean will definitely be in the game somewhere down the line. Maybe even in her upcoming Phoenix look.

Some characters have skins that are more than just palette swaps so hoping Jean gets a good one like her 90s look or Marvel Girl costume. If it's a palette swap, I'd like to see her new costume in white.

[Mercury]

Since her book is cosmic-based, I doubt we'll see him, but I would love to see Ted Roberts pop back up whenever Jean returns to earth. He has special significance as her first boyfriend and "first" overall.

Using your tweet and pics Mercury!

https://twitter.com/Jean_RED_Grey/st...15543783452973

I would love to see a backstory involving Ted!

I would think she means creator of Phoenix and also referring to her as itself.

Same.

By "messing" things up I just meant more in terms of narrative parsimony. But that's fairly common in this medium with all these writers contributing.

Exactly! I always consider it a win when a writer can tie up dangling plot threads and link them to current continuity seamlessly, which I think Gillen does here. He uses his story to add more context to Jean’s brief but pivotal appearances during Messiah Complex and AvX WHILE underscoring her singular identity as Phoenix. I think it's brilliant!

I also think it means she is the Phoenix and Mother of the Phoenix. Rachel and Hope are probably daughter-me’s to the Phoenix as Jean is mother-me to the Phoenix.

Exactly!

[MechaJeanix]

This is my take on Jean/Phoenix and it may differ from some. I am loving what they are saying about Jean and Phoenix lately. Jean being described as "of the phoenix" and them being described as informing each other or being a circle without beginning/end. That is enough for me. Look up the symbolism of the circle. They don't have to say more than that and I will be happy.

I've always wanted them to respect Jean's history and innate and intimate connection to the Phoenix and if that is done then I'm all good. I think sometimes we let perfection be the enemy of the good - and I know some fans desperately want them to be separate and others who want them to be the same thing, but I think this may be the wrong way to go about it - it may be a never ending debate. Or a debate with no winner as it will change from time to time in the comics.

So far (not knowing what the finale will bring us) I am loving how Jean and Phoenix's connection is being handled by Gillen. It is very "woo" or metaphysical. I also loved how Simonson handled it as well (Jean and the Phoenix going through the same thing - death to rebirth which Gillen has also shown).

Bring on the Phoenix solo. As much as I got used to Jean sans Phoenix it will be exciting to see the character fulfil her destiny and finally get to be a cosmic character (and still be oh so human!).

[Havok83]

In the past when Jean has died, it was the PF that brought her back to life. Now they are killing the Phoenix Force and it will be Jean that brings it back to life (with assist from Hope and Rachel). The new Phoenix that is created will be born as an extension of Jean in a way that makes it undeniably her and negates the past decade or so of hopping from random hosts. I think Gillen will erase the concept of it needing a host bc in the most simplest term, it IS Jean. In the past the PF can and has existed without Jean but going forward it cant bc it is very much apart of her as she is it

[Mercury]

This is my take on Jean/Phoenix and it may differ from some. I am loving what they are saying about Jean and Phoenix lately. Jean being described as "of the phoenix" and them being described as informing each other or being a circle without beginning/end. That is enough for me. Look up the symbolism of the circle. They don't have to say more than that and I will be happy.

I've always wanted them to respect Jean's history and innate and intimate connection to the Phoenix and if that is done then I'm all good. I think sometimes we let perfection be the enemy of the good - and I know some fans desperately want them to be separate and others who want them to be the same thing, but I think this may be the wrong way to go about it - it may be a never ending debate. Or a debate with no winner as it will change from time to time in the comics.

So far (not knowing what the finale will bring us) I am loving how Jean and Phoenix's connection is being handled by Gillen. It is very "woo" or metaphysical. I also loved how Simonson handled it as well (Jean and the Phoenix going through the same thing - death to rebirth which Gillen has also shown).

Bring on the Phoenix solo. As much as I got used to Jean sans Phoenix it will be exciting to see the character fulfil her destiny and finally get to be a cosmic character (and still be oh so human!).

In the past when Jean has died, it was the PF that brought her back to life. Now they are killing the Phoenix Force and it will be Jean that brings it back to life (with assist from Hope and Rachel). The new Phoenix that is created will be born as an extension of Jean in a way that makes it undeniably her and negates the past decade or so of hopping from random hosts. I think Gillen will erase the concept of it needing a host bc in the most simplest term, it IS Jean. In the past the PF can and has existed without Jean but going forward it cant bc it is very much apart of her as she is it

I agree with most of what both of you have posted. I do want to add that, as a whole, Simonson and Gillen's work with Jean/Phoenix has made her choosing all the Phoenix hosts we have seen totally logical and, frankly, likely. I mean, combined, both writers have shown Jean's wounds correlating with Phoenix's wounds; Jean creating alternate realities that Simonson noted were real, which is Phoenix-work; Jean "floating above time and space," seemingly independent from Phoenix, which, to me, only reinforces that Jean is always Phoenix; Jean imbuing Hope with Phoenix's abilities, which clarifies how Hope was able to manifest Phoenix in AvX, especially considering Jean prevented Scott from transcending spacetime (and entering the White Hot Room?) before convincing him to release the Phoenix fragments he possessed just a few pages before Hope hosted Phoenix (not to mention Jean foretelling Hope's arrival years before); Jean's psyche being broken, as Destiny noted, by the presence of "subjective reality," i.e., other psyches in the White Hot Room, which underscores Jean's singular connection to the WHR and Phoenix; Gillen having Mother Righteous note, "Jean's connected to the White Hot Room, which is basically the Phoenix. Anytime she's dead, she's there. Out of time. She is of the Phoenix, in a real and unbreakable way. She guides it, and it guides her, in a circle without beginning or end"; and...well, we'll get to the latest revelation on Wednesday. And I know I'm forgetting other details. Honestly, remembering all the correlations Simonson and Gillen seeded gives me a euphoric little rush akin to a mystical conversion experience.

Just as tellingly, Brevoort declaring, "Jean is Phoenix again and, in fact, has always been Phoenix" is pretty definitive, too. What a damn time to be a Jean fan!

[whitecrown]

spoilers:

Hope being another daughter of Jean and a creation of the Phoenix is interesting. This means that both of Jean's daughters are essentially virgin births with their "fathers" being the Phoenix. I wonder if that could also imply that Hope is 616 Rachel.

end of spoilers It would also mean that Jean only seems to have male children when they're produced with Scott as a biological father (Nathan Christopher, Nate Grey). I wonder if that could imply tampering by Sinister especially considering his original origin that he was a long-lived mutant stuck in the body of a kid that never aged and needed a new host body. Makes sense he would favor a male child with the Summers-Grey bloodline for himself. Meanwhile, the Phoenix's messiah children, like Rachel and Hope, are always female like Jean, because they're a product of the Phoenix itself.

[Mercury]

spoilers:

Hope being another daughter of Jean and a creation of the Phoenix is interesting. This means that both of Jean's daughters are essentially virgin births with their "fathers" being the Phoenix. I wonder if that could also imply that Hope is 616 Rachel.

end of spoilers It would also mean that Jean only seems to have male children when they're produced with Scott as a biological father (Nathan Christopher, Nate Grey). I wonder if that could imply tampering by Sinister especially considering his original origin that he was a long-lived mutant stuck in the body of a kid that never aged and needed a new host body. Makes sense he would favor a male child with the Summers-Grey bloodline for himself. Meanwhile, the Phoenix's messiah children, like Rachel and Hope, are always female like Jean, because they're a product of the Phoenix itself.

spoilers:

And this underscores that Jean IS Phoenix, now and forever: Neither of her daughters can manifest her, i.e., Phoenix, without her willing it to be! Regarding Rachel, Claremont underscored this in Uncanny X-Men #140.5 and in the UXM issue where Rachel was only able to manifest her mother's power after touching her holo-empathic matrix crystal! Regarding Hope, this has been underscored by Simonson and Gillen!

end of spoilers

[whitecrown]

Just to clarify, is the Hope stuff already confirmed or is it still a theory? Because I didn't use spoiler tags because I was under the impression it's still a theory.

[Mercury]

Just to clarify, is the Hope stuff already confirmed or is it still a theory? Because I didn't use spoiler tags because I was under the impression it's still a theory.

Use spoiler tags...

[Celestialbodies]

I wonder how much of the story involving Jean feels off because it wasn't supposed to be her? Again, conjecture but looking at Gillen's run up until Jean's involvement the story didn't feel at least to me that it was about her. The story seemed to be pointing towards Hope and by extension Exodus. The Jean portion felt tacked on but with the number of issues remaining in IMX, and with Forever coming I thought the story would explain why Jean's presence is so needed. I don't feel like we've gotten that story yet, and I do wonder if the original plan was to make Hope the Phoenix and it changed?

[Darth_Caedus]

I've also read the review copy. Mercury you're just optimistic as usual. Gillen's writing here is a mess. Can't wait for the era to be over.

[Mercury]

I wonder how much of the story involving Jean feels off because it wasn't supposed to be her? Again, conjecture but looking at Gillen's run up until Jean's involvement the story didn't feel at least to me that it was about her. The story seemed to be pointing towards Hope and by extension Exodus. The Jean portion felt tacked on but with the number of issues remaining in IMX, and with Forever coming I thought the story would explain why Jean's presence is so needed. I don't feel like we've gotten that story yet, and I do wonder if the original plan was to make Hope the Phoenix and it changed?

Gillen wrote Jean as Phoenix, transcending all other Phoenix hosts, during AvX, when he had her prevent Scott from transcending spacetime. He confirmed this two years ago during press for Judgment Day, during which he also underscored Jean's identity as Phoenix, both in A.X.E.: X-Men #1 and A.X.E.: Eternals #1. I think it's pretty clear where he has stood and currently stands regarding Jean/Phoenix.

Now, while I understand that some fans hoped for Jean to have a more "active" role during Fall of X, I think it's obvious why Gillen depicted her the way he did. He described her as "the Holy Grail, the whole Holy Grail, the blood of the Holy Grail," which is meant to contain great mystery and power even though some might consider it an inanimate cup or object. Depicting Jean as seemingly inactive, only repeating "nowandforevernowandforevernowandforever," may, to some, seem pointless and even disrespectful; however, I think it underscores Jean's mystery and power. She transcended two deaths, both within and beyond spacetime, and was undergoing her own impenetrable process of self-preservation, which, when you think about it, also held the White Hot Room and everything else together.

I've also read the review copy. Mercury you're just optimistic as usual. Gillen's writing here is a mess. Can't wait for the era to be over.

I loved Gillen's writing here, specifically for Jean. When you string together his arc for her, starting with Judgment Day, it's quite beautiful.

[Havok83]

Russell Dautermann did an interview with XPlain the X-men podcast and shed some insight into Jean this past era



He was told from Hickman that characters could wear any costume from the past. With Jean the only rule was that it had to be green/gold and it couldnt be anything Phoenix related. Its likely why he recolored her X-Men Red suit to what we saw in the Giant Size issues

Remember how he by and large refused to draw the Marvel Girl dress across the various covers he did? He liked the dress in context of the 60s. its an outfit a teenager would design in the 60s as a superhero costume but he didnt feel it was something adult Jean would be wearing in the modern day especially since her teammates were wearing modern clothes. He liked Asrar's Red look as a modernized take of the Jim Lee suit that he just palette swapped bc of the green/gold guideline

The Hellfire Gala. He wanted to do something superheroic but since her most iconic look (Phoenix) was off limits, he went to her Jim Lee suit so he pulled in elements from that and other costumes. He name dropped her looks from teen solo, Revolution, Evolution. He wanted to take the most superhero Jean moments, combine them all, add some new elements and make it something new


Its interesting that he was mandated to only use green/gold costumes with her but she was drawn in her blue/yellow 90s and red/yellow X-Factor costumes in other books

[PhoenixStudies]

spoilers:

Hope being another daughter of Jean and a creation of the Phoenix is interesting. This means that both of Jean's daughters are essentially virgin births with their "fathers" being the Phoenix. I wonder if that could also imply that Hope is 616 Rachel.

end of spoilers It would also mean that Jean only seems to have male children when they're produced with Scott as a biological father (Nathan Christopher, Nate Grey). I wonder if that could imply tampering by Sinister especially considering his original origin that he was a long-lived mutant stuck in the body of a kid that never aged and needed a new host body. Makes sense he would favor a male child with the Summers-Grey bloodline for himself. Meanwhile, the Phoenix's messiah children, like Rachel and Hope, are always female like Jean, because they're a product of the Phoenix itself.

Well, in Hope's case, spoilers:

Jean impregnates Louise Spalding with the Phoenix and her (Jean's) love. I can imagine Jean created Rachel in a similar way. Except it would have been Jean doing that to herself. And since Jean is also "of the Phoenix" maybe she was created by a similar process too. Although it may be that Jean was a key ingredient when the Phoenix was made (or re-made or both if they were the same time). This issue has some interesting implications in that regard.

end of spoilers

Sure, Fall and Rise (along with Jean Grey, Immortal, Dead, and Forever) make a convoluted story (and not just the Phoenix parts), but they have respected the contributions of Jean, Rachel, and Hope to the Phoenix mythos while preserving Jean as the main Phoenix. Rachel and Hope have had essential/pivotal roles as well. The three together are certainly more important to the Phoenix mythos than any of the other hosts and this story reinforces that. This is no small feat and should be commended, imho. Of course they are more than hosts and are literally of the Phoenix.

[whitecrown]

Russell Dautermann did an interview with XPlain the X-men podcast and shed some insight into Jean this past era



He was told from Hickman that characters could wear any costume from the past. With Jean the only rule was that it had to be green/gold and it couldnt be anything Phoenix related. Its likely why he recolored her X-Men Red suit to what we saw in the Giant Size issues

Remember how he by and large refused to draw the Marvel Girl dress across the various covers he did? He liked the dress in context of the 60s. its an outfit a teenager would design in the 60s as a superhero costume but he didnt feel it was something adult Jean would be wearing in the modern day especially since her teammates were wearing modern clothes. He liked Asrar's Red look as a modernized take of the Jim Lee suit that he just palette swapped bc of the green/gold guideline

The Hellfire Gala. He wanted to do something superheroic but since her most iconic look (Phoenix) was off limits, he went to her Jim Lee suit so he pulled in elements from that and other costumes. He name dropped her looks from teen solo, Revolution, Evolution. He wanted to take the most superhero Jean moments, combine them all, add some new elements and make it something new


Its interesting that he was mandated to only use green/gold costumes with her but she was drawn in her blue/yellow 90s and red/yellow X-Factor costumes in other books

Interesting that the rule was she had to wear green/gold (no other color scheme like red/gold or white/gold) but no Phoenix costume. Outside of her Marvel Girl costume and first X-Factor costume, that doesn't leave many choices for the green/gold color scheme. I always thought the X-Men Red costume recolored to green/gold looked horrendous.