Is it time for DC to move away from "Everything is canon"

[HsssH]

Reborn was definetely a big nail into "continuity" coffin.

[Will Evans]

This simply isn't true. The post-Superman Reborn, post-Death Metal, post-Dark Crisis "continuity" (if such a thing exists now) does indeed appear to be a completely distinct beast from both pre-Flashpoint and New 52 continuities. You can't honestly say it's just New 52 with minor changes.

It’s most like pre-Flashpoint with minor changes.
Some stuff is completely post-flashpoint now, like all of the Shazam mythos.
Other some is all back in pre-Flashpoint continuity with post-Flashpoint added in.
Like all of Green Arrow mythos.

[HsssH]

Then almost every post-marriage story is out of continuity due to Jon.

[Buried Alien]

No. "Everything is canon" (somewhere) is the only viable way to keep most of the fanbase reasonably happy.

Check out this week's BATMAN # 147: wonderful flashback sequence wherein Bruce remembers a friendly moment between him and Barry Allen that looks like it could have taken place in a 1960s or 1970s issue of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, but also fits in with present continuity. Selectively use the entire wealth of nearly 100 years of DC Comics.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[Lightning Rider]

No. "Everything is canon" (somewhere) is the only viable way to keep most of the fanbase reasonably happy.

Check out this week's BATMAN # 147: wonderful flashback sequence wherein Bruce remembers a friendly moment between him and Barry Allen that looks like it could have taken place in a 1960s or 1970s issue of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, but also fits in with present continuity. Selectively use the entire wealth of nearly 100 years of DC Comics.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

That's a good example of incorporating pre-Crisis continuity. But what happens when Barry or Wally remember their past? Is Wallace around or not? Did Barry ever die or not?

[Primal Slayer]

No. "Everything is canon" (somewhere) is the only viable way to keep most of the fanbase reasonably happy.

Check out this week's BATMAN # 147: wonderful flashback sequence wherein Bruce remembers a friendly moment between him and Barry Allen that looks like it could have taken place in a 1960s or 1970s issue of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, but also fits in with present continuity. Selectively use the entire wealth of nearly 100 years of DC Comics.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

Is Girl From Krypton canon for Kara and being an honorary Amazon and Fury? Or is her New52 origin canon and her whole gig as a Red Lantern? WHen did she officially meet Powergirl?

[superduperman]

No. "Everything is canon" (somewhere) is the only viable way to keep most of the fanbase reasonably happy.

Check out this week's BATMAN # 147: wonderful flashback sequence wherein Bruce remembers a friendly moment between him and Barry Allen that looks like it could have taken place in a 1960s or 1970s issue of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, but also fits in with present continuity. Selectively use the entire wealth of nearly 100 years of DC Comics.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

This doesn't work for a number of reasons.

[Stanlos]

Then almost every post-marriage story is out of continuity due to Jon.

Is Jon different from or better than Chris?

[bat39]

I don't know why you feel the way you do, since there is no evidence that DC is even taking that route. The "everything is canon" thing simply means that past stories are still relevant. That's it. We're still post-Nu52/whatever iteration. And quite frankly, I rather read the stories on their own merit, rather than worry about where in the timeline an event occurs. Besides, if the storyline is popular, it will keep. If not, it will soon be forgotten. No more, no less.

Yes and no

The minutae of comics continuity lining up perfectly is a futile exercise. If you're reading a Batman story and it has flashbacks to Batman's early years, it doesn't really matter if Batman is wearing the Year One suit, or the original Bob Kane design, or the 'New Look' suit. But if Mr. Freeze shows up, then it matters if he's someone who actually had a wife named Nora he was trying to save, or just a guy who had a psychotic breakdown and imagined having a wife named Nora.

It also definitely matters if Supergirl is someone born on Krypton who once babysat her infant cousin Kal-El, but then arrived on earth to find him much older than her. Or if Supergirl is someone born on Argo City years after Krypton's destructon. And is Supergirl the same age as Dick Grayson or Tim Drake? If she was a teenager when Dick was Robin and is still a teenager now what explains it? Was she ever dead?

With some characters you can get away with "everything is canon" upto a point. Flash is the perfect example of this, given that alternate timelines and parallel universes are baked into his mythos. But you can't apply that to the entire DCU, and especially not to the perspective of 'ordinary'/civilian characters.

The "Everything is canon" concept is incredibly stupid. Considering who wanted to implement it makes it unsurprising, however.

The Multiverse is the solution and always has been. COIE could have more easily switched the focus to a new universe and Earth instead of destroying the infinite Multiverse. It looks like DC is realizing this with the rumored Absolute line, though I have a feeling they'll find a way to botch it. I'm somewhat hopeful, though. It's way past time to move on from the post-COIE DCU and its variations.

DC tried to get rid of the Post-COIE DCU in 2011, and then had to bring it back in 2016...but the way they went about it totally messed things up. I think 5G was another effort to move on from it, but that never got off the ground.

I dunno...I'm someone who grew up on Post-COIE DC and its adaptations. But even I'm starting to feel it might not be the worst thing to move on. But what configuration should the next continuity take is the question? And will everyone at DC agree with it (let alone the fans)?

No. "Everything is canon" (somewhere) is the only viable way to keep most of the fanbase reasonably happy.

Check out this week's BATMAN # 147: wonderful flashback sequence wherein Bruce remembers a friendly moment between him and Barry Allen that looks like it could have taken place in a 1960s or 1970s issue of JUSTICE LEAGUE OF AMERICA, but also fits in with present continuity. Selectively use the entire wealth of nearly 100 years of DC Comics.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

And that's great. But its just a simple flashback scene which doesn't contradict much either way.

What if it was a flashback to the days of Morrison's JLA? That raises a lot of questions...is Aquaman in his beard and harpoon phase and did that happen in 'current' continuity? Is Wally the Flash and does that mean Barry was dead? And so on.

Hell, what if it wasn't Batman, but Superman flashing back to that era? How does he remember his life back then? Was he already a father or not? Was he living in hiding with Lois because her life was under threat due to her exposes against organized crime?

[Buried Alien]

And that's great. But its just a simple flashback scene which doesn't contradict much either way.

What if it was a flashback to the days of Morrison's JLA? That raises a lot of questions...is Aquaman in his beard and harpoon phase and did that happen in 'current' continuity? Is Wally the Flash and does that mean Barry was dead? And so on.

Hell, what if it wasn't Batman, but Superman flashing back to that era? How does he remember his life back then? Was he already a father or not? Was he living in hiding with Lois because her life was under threat due to her exposes against organized crime?

I think it's an unofficial adoption of Mark Waid's Hypertime concept from THE KINGDOM a quarter century ago. The fluid continuity DC has had operating for the past several years operates much like Hypertime was supposed to, even though it's not officially acknowledged.

One of Barry's first appearances after the end of DARK CRISIS (in early 2023) was the BIG BANG one shot by Waid. In that one-shot, Barry and Wallace stalk the Anti-Monitor, and eventually assemble a team of heroes from across the Multiverse to send the Anti-Monitor back to Qward. It acknowledges Barry's death in the original COIE, but also acknowledges that Wallace has no knowledge of the COIE event. The fact that this doesn't line up somehow did not make the story unentertaining or unreadable.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

[bat39]

I think it's an unofficial adoption of Mark Waid's Hypertime concept from THE KINGDOM a quarter century ago. The fluid continuity DC has had operating for the past several years operates much like Hypertime was supposed to, even though it's not officially acknowledged.

One of Barry's first appearances after the end of DARK CRISIS (in early 2023) was the BIG BANG one shot by Waid. In that one-shot, Barry and Wallace stalk the Anti-Monitor, and eventually assemble a team of heroes from across the Multiverse to send the Anti-Monitor back to Qward. It acknowledges Barry's death in the original COIE, but also acknowledges that Wallace has no knowledge of the COIE event. The fact that this doesn't line up somehow did not make the story unentertaining or unreadable.

[color=red]Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)/color]

Hypertime provides a rationale for multiple timelines/continuities (much like the Multiverse does, but with even fewer constraints). And that's perfectly fine.

My point is that if we're going to have an Earth 0 or Prime Earth or New Earth or whatever is the 'main' continuity now, then at least the fundamentals of that continuity need to be set in stone. Hypertime explains why we can have multiple different continuities, but it doesn't really explain why we don't have a stable 'main' continuity.

And the Flash is one franchise which takes to timeline ambiguities and contradictions like ducks to water. But if we want to maintain some sense of a stable DCU, then even that needs to have limits. Its okay for the likes of Barry and Wally to remember multiple timelines or to acknowledge the alterations to their own histories. But the average joe in Central City, or any significant supporting character who isn't clued into the time-travel/Multiverse stuff, needs to have a stable history to remember.

[Jon Clark]

Hypertime provides a rationale for multiple timelines/continuities (much like the Multiverse does, but with even fewer constraints). And that's perfectly fine.

My point is that if we're going to have an Earth 0 or Prime Earth or New Earth or whatever is the 'main' continuity now, then at least the fundamentals of that continuity need to be set in stone. Hypertime explains why we can have multiple different continuities, but it doesn't really explain why we don't have a stable 'main' continuity.

And the Flash is one franchise which takes to timeline ambiguities and contradictions like ducks to water. But if we want to maintain some sense of a stable DCU, then even that needs to have limits. Its okay for the likes of Barry and Wally to remember multiple timelines or to acknowledge the alterations to their own histories. But the average joe in Central City, or any significant supporting character who isn't clued into the time-travel/Multiverse stuff, needs to have a stable history to remember.

The Hypertime definition Waid gave in Kingdom sounded like pure anti-continuity to me. Character X has no connection to our hero. Then a hypertimeline intersects the current DCU and Character X becomes a major part of our hero's story. But then that hypertimeline moves out of the current DCU and Character X goes back to having no connection again.

So in issue #1 the JLA have never met before that issue. But in issue #4 they suddenly recall their adventures from Pre-Crisis. Whetehr those adventures ever happened depends on whether the writers of future issues decide the hypertimeline with those Pre-Crissi adventures is still present. Maybe Waid writes the team as if they have been active since 1960, Johns writes them as only having teamed up for the first time in 2011 and Marv Wolfman writes that the team existed before 2011 but never had Superman, Batman or Wonder Woman as members. That just means that Pre-Crisis hypertimelines cross in when Waid writes them but cross out before Johns or Wolfman stories start. Making the actual history of the team clear as mud- but letting all three writers not be bound by each other's ides.

[Aahz]

With some characters you can get away with "everything is canon" upto a point. Flash is the perfect example of this, given that alternate timelines and parallel universes are baked into his mythos. But you can't apply that to the entire DCU, and especially not to the perspective of 'ordinary'/civilian characters.

Yeah there are lot of characters where "everything is canon" leads to Donna Troy/Hawkman levels of snarl. And I don't think that this is a worthy trade off just to keep Golden/Silver Age stories and the new52 retcons canon.

[married guy]

I think it's an unofficial adoption of Mark Waid's Hypertime concept from THE KINGDOM a quarter century ago. The fluid continuity DC has had operating for the past several years operates much like Hypertime was supposed to, even though it's not officially acknowledged.

One of Barry's first appearances after the end of DARK CRISIS (in early 2023) was the BIG BANG one shot by Waid. In that one-shot, Barry and Wallace stalk the Anti-Monitor, and eventually assemble a team of heroes from across the Multiverse to send the Anti-Monitor back to Qward. It acknowledges Barry's death in the original COIE, but also acknowledges that Wallace has no knowledge of the COIE event. The fact that this doesn't line up somehow did not make the story unentertaining or unreadable.

Buried Alien (The Fastest Post Alive!)

While I get where you're coming from, the issue for me is, it takes a good writer to make it work. Mark Waid doesn't grow on trees.
I feel the 'everything is canon' mandate just muddies up too much. Especially as history has always been an important element of the DCU.

[marhawkman]

While I get where you're coming from, the issue for me is, it takes a good writer to make it work. Mark Waid doesn't grow on trees.
I feel the 'everything is canon' mandate just muddies up too much. Especially as history has always been an important element of the DCU.

Yeah it gets confusing if you don't know which version it is.