Alex Summers: Havok Appreciation 2024 Cry Havok 4 the Nexus being Goblin Prince

[GoingGreen]

but where has their history been ignored? Its been felt throughout Krakoa. In X of Swords, the first Hellfire Gala, X-Factor....Alex has come up for her. They dont need to be within the same proximity or team for it to be acknowledged. Is the reverse done though? Im failing to think of a time when Alex mentions or realls Lorna when they arent in a scene together. I think thats partially bc they did give him a nw love interest to focus on. Lorna isnt afforded that same opportunity

I don't think that has happened since Polaris was possessed by Malice, and Havok had a signed picture of her (something they did back then...) and he was lamenting - which was during the lead-up to him becoming Madelyne's leather puppy. Other than that, she doesn't really exist to him when they're not on panel together. The double standard is pretty wild and very blatant for Polaris fans.

I can see why Havok fans would be interested in having Polaris around, but I like how the Krakoan era treated them. They work together here and there, cordial, say hi in passing... there's a visible, respectful nod. I'd love to see him get confronted for some of his actions and take some accountability, but I don't expect that to ever occur. So instead, I'd just rather they both move on... work together here and there, remain cordial, and say hi in the halls.

I am curious about the opposing arguments though... how do some people think they benefit each other? Are Polaris and Havok end-game for anyone, anymore?

[EmeraldGladiator]

No for me Maddy is Alex's endgame, however while there might be a touch of wanting Lorna around to boost up Alex subconsciously for me the main reason is after a few passionate Lorna-stans pointed out Alex's shabby treatment her, I would like the opportunity for Alex to rectify/do something to right the great wrongs. I would like to think Alex is a better man than Scott in that regard who I can't recall ever telling Maddy, "sorry I was a crap husband/baby daddy". I would figure Alex would always be protective of Lorna because of both their shared history and his less than ideal behavior in their relationship (though a blame a lot of that more on bad writing than I do on Alex, Nurse Annie WTH?).

[LoganAlpha30X33]

Nurse Annie was all about Austen and his wife, putting their relationship into the comic with Annie and Alex. I still see Lirna as endgame for Alex, Maddy seems more short term in her current depiction.

[Havok83]

I dont think there is wrongs that Alex needs to right. Like you said he's not Scott. He wasnt married to her no did they have any kids. Unlike Maddie, Lorna isnt walking around carrying a grudge nor feels there is unresolved issues. She is cool with him

[EmeraldGladiator]

characters have been cancelled for less. Just for me the damage to done Lorna via Alex during Nurse Annie was way worse than one inappropriate slap from Hank Pym to Janet. Hank's character has never recovered from that. Editors need to watch over the properties so that bad writers don't permanently damage the ip. Besides that it was just bad storytelling out of nowhere.

[EmeraldGladiator]

I dont think there is wrongs that Alex needs to right. Like you said he's not Scott. He wasnt married to her no did they have any kids. Unlike Maddie, Lorna isnt walking around carrying a grudge nor feels there is unresolved issues. She is cool with him

Havok83 in universe you are correct, I just feel the need for contrition after being baptized in the evil's of Alex by some in the Lorna thread. Summer's Mutant burden.

[Will Jones]

I don't think that has happened since Polaris was possessed by Malice, and Havok had a signed picture of her (something they did back then...) and he was lamenting - which was during the lead-up to him becoming Madelyne's leather puppy. Other than that, she doesn't really exist to him when they're not on panel together. The double standard is pretty wild and very blatant for Polaris fans.

I can see why Havok fans would be interested in having Polaris around, but I like how the Krakoan era treated them. They work together here and there, cordial, say hi in passing... there's a visible, respectful nod. I'd love to see him get confronted for some of his actions and take some accountability, but I don't expect that to ever occur. So instead, I'd just rather they both move on... work together here and there, remain cordial, and say hi in the halls.

I am curious about the opposing arguments though... how do some people think they benefit each other? Are Polaris and Havok end-game for anyone, anymore?

While it is unfair to Polaris, that's on the writers.

Maybe they don't bring it up through Havok because there's nothing left for him to say on the relationship. They're in a good place as it stands right now, and they want to leave it like that. She's got her life, and he's got his.

I'm one Havok fan who isn't particularly interested in having her around him anymore.

I believe good writing can fix almost anything, so I wouldn't rule Havok and Polaris reuniting out, but should that happen, it's going to have to be more balanced when it comes to potential problems in it, because always making Alex the bad guy isn't going to engender sympathy for Lorna from me anymore.

His canon treatment of her shouldn't be defended, but any writer who considers putting them back together shouldn't go back to that well for cheap drama or sympathy.

Personally, I don't see any benefit for either of them at this point.

[DarkMagnus]

Im into Madok more than into Havoklaris

I Think the x-men need a not drama couple and if Havok can teach Scott how you end a relationship in a sane way.


Also is like Scott and Jean are sweet pop music and Maddie and Havok sexy punk rock

[WarrensForgottenMemoryLoss]

I'm more blaming the writers for the Lorna-Alex drama than either of them. (I mean, even PDA wrote them breaking up amicably in his 2000s run, but later had Alex has a possessive ex in All-New X-Factor, just so that he could dunk on Uncanny Avenegrs's portrayal of Havok [and that's another can of worm])

But that's probably because i think Lorna and Alex are both at that level where each writer has their own portrayal, so a bit hard to get coherent characters.

Also, I did what many did back then and decided to write Alex and Nurse Annie off as being Carter's fault. (I mean, he explicitedly had Alex and Annie share dreams while Alex was in a coma, Alex was referring to him as his son WHEN coming out of said coma so I suspect manipulation, AND that little creep ended Austen's run making friend with what is hinted to be Cassandra Nova, who was just about to be retconned as responsible for Emma moving on to Scott while he was married. She could have been inspired, or inspired him. Either way, makes sense when Claremont's take on Carter in X-Men: the end used his illusions to remain a child with "alive" parents. What the heck was that...)

Also, I am firmly in the "get Alex single for a short while camp" currently. i mean, Lorna, current-day maddie and the power inbalance, and freaking Nurse Annie are the most famous cases, but I say let's not forget Plasma (Alex thought a normal woman would be a way to heal from Maddie and Inferno. turns out it was the Living Monolith's niece playing a long game where she fakes her kidnapping to get Alex to shoot her villain persona and gets power-boosted like her uncle) and that Russian spy from Alex/Wolverine: Meltdown, who later came back as a agent of Sugar man, but was then dropped.

Oh yeah, he might or might not have done something with Fatale. She looked interested at least.

Just... An alternate version of Elektra is the healthiest dynammic he has had until now. The WASP was maybe the second. I would claim Alex needs a run where his romance isn't the main focus of his character arc because I don't think he had one in a decade besides that very short-lived "makes a need team to fight O*N*E*". (Hellions had him pining after Maddie as the main focus over his mental health problems that were dropped by later writers anyway. And it was apparently White who wanted for Alex and Maddie to be messy, according to Foxe? So maybe it would be better now. But despite loving Outback Madelyne and Alex, Krakoa Alex and Maddie.... Well, let's say i think her crush on nate Grey was an healthier dynamic.)

[GoingGreen]

While it is unfair to Polaris, that's on the writers.

When it comes to the double standard, we absolutely agree there.

[...] because always making Alex the bad guy isn't going to engender sympathy for Lorna from me anymore.

I'm not sure when, in comics, this has -ever- been the case. It's true, Polaris fans are hard on him. But Marvel Comics are not hard on him. At all. I think that might be part of the problem. I'm a fan of Havok (which is why I play in here), but in the Polaris thread, I am VERY hard on him, and that's earned. He hit her so hard her heart stopped. He's called her crazy and been wildly insensitive to her mental state countless times, which is a crime from someone who knows her as well as he's supposed to. Him in a relationship with Polaris has been portrayed, almost universally, as abusive and chauvenistic. Which is why I think he deserves Madelyne, and everything that comes with it.

BUT!

At the end of the day, I think Havok is the least of Polaris' concerns. I think she recognizes what the relationship was, and likewise. And I think they both just grew up.

I'm glad Havok was better to Wasp, and even better to Madelyne.

Personally, I don't see any benefit for either of them at this point.

I think, if they are ever put on a team together in the future, I can see them finally evolving far far away from romance and into best friends.

[Will Jones]

When it comes to the double standard, we absolutely agree there.


I'm not sure when, in comics, this has -ever- been the case. It's true, Polaris fans are hard on him. But Marvel Comics are not hard on him. At all. I think that might be part of the problem. I'm a fan of Havok (which is why I play in here), but in the Polaris thread, I am VERY hard on him, and that's earned. He hit her so hard her heart stopped. He's called her crazy and been wildly insensitive to her mental state countless times, which is a crime from someone who knows her as well as he's supposed to. Him in a relationship with Polaris has been portrayed, almost universally, as abusive and chauvenistic. Which is why I think he deserves Madelyne, and everything that comes with it.

BUT!

At the end of the day, I think Havok is the least of Polaris' concerns. I think she recognizes what the relationship was, and likewise. And I think they both just grew up.

I'm glad Havok was better to Wasp, and even better to Madelyne.



I think, if they are ever put on a team together in the future, I can see them finally evolving far far away from romance and into best friends.

When I say him always being the bad guy, I mean the writers putting him in the position of being the one to do horrible things to Lorna, such as the examples you cited, rather than showing her contributing to the state of their relationship. (Not how other characters treat him or how the company treats him.)

Which she hasn't, I know you'll point out, but that's my point.

There's no nuance to it.

Something bad happens in the relationship, it's always Alex's fault, which is historically canon and again, I won't defend his treatment of her.

But like you said, they've gotten past that, and despite my own gripes, I still do have a soft spot for Havok and Polaris, but that's because of PAD's original run on X-Factor.

(Obviously, it went sour there, too.)

[GoingGreen]

When I say him always being the bad guy, I mean the writers putting him in the position of being the one to do horrible things to Lorna, such as the examples you cited, rather than showing her contributing to the state of their relationship. (Not how other characters treat him or how the company treats him.)

Which she hasn't, I know you'll point out, but that's my point.

There's no nuance to it.

Something bad happens in the relationship, it's always Alex's fault, which is historically canon and again, I won't defend his treatment of her.

But like you said, they've gotten past that, and despite my own gripes, I still do have a soft spot for Havok and Polaris, but that's because of PAD's original run on X-Factor.

(Obviously, it went sour there, too.)

I don't necessarily know that I agree with this either.

Polaris was, absolutely, portrayed as -the- problem at the beginning of Austen's run. She was portrayed as wildly aggressive, almost sociopathic, and nothing that lovely little Havok would love when he came out of his coma after everyone had presumed him dead (except the lady in question, lol). And when you go back and read those issues before Sacred Vows, there's no possible way to root for Polaris. It's only in retrospect, after learning about her experience in the Genoshan genocide that readers can go Oooooh! Expletiiiive! I'm a 30+ year fan of Polaris and Havok, so I was reading comics before that. And as a Polaris fan, it was a REALLY hard time in the early 00s (in the confines of a fandom, of course) to be a Polaris fan when Austen was writing the X-Men. Eeeveryone hated her, and eeeeveryone was team Havok. And I'm not going to allow that history to be rewritten.

And to expand on what you were saying... in the other occasions... those times Havok was treated as "the bad guy"... it wasn't for Polaris' sake... it was to build on Havok as a character. To show his flaws.

Ultimately, I don't think there's a single couple in Marvel comics that have been shown trying to kill each other as much as Havok and Polaris. Lmao.

And in a way, I kindof love that for them as characters...

[Will Jones]

I don't necessarily know that I agree with this either.

Polaris was, absolutely, portrayed as -the- problem at the beginning of Austen's run. She was portrayed as wildly aggressive, almost sociopathic, and nothing that lovely little Havok would love when he came out of his coma after everyone had presumed him dead (except the lady in question, lol). And when you go back and read those issues before Sacred Vows, there's no possible way to root for Polaris. It's only in retrospect, after learning about her experience in the Genoshan genocide that readers can go Oooooh! Expletiiiive! I'm a 30+ year fan of Polaris and Havok, so I was reading comics before that. And as a Polaris fan, it was a REALLY hard time in the early 00s (in the confines of a fandom, of course) to be a Polaris fan when Austen was writing the X-Men. Eeeveryone hated her, and eeeeveryone was team Havok. And I'm not going to allow that history to be rewritten.

And to expand on what you were saying... in the other occasions... those times Havok was treated as "the bad guy"... it wasn't for Polaris' sake... it was to build on Havok as a character. To show his flaws.

Ultimately, I don't think there's a single couple in Marvel comics that have been shown trying to kill each other as much as Havok and Polaris. Lmao.

And in a way, I kindof love that for them as characters...

Yeah, I don't blame you for not wanting Austen's "run" to be rewritten, because apart from the character derailment of Polaris that required Grant Morrison of all writers to fix, Austen's tenure is a perfect example of when the fanboy in a writer takes over too much, and it should be used to highlight the problems with that happening.

I have my favorites, but, and I'm paraphrasing here, Rod Serling was right when he told writers not to treat the audience as having less intelligence than them.

Once or twice I can see as showing Havok's flaws, but more than that? (Assuming I'm not misremembering how often it occurred.)

That's on the writers, though, and it sucks that Polaris took the brunt of that.

[salarta]

Hey. Hello. Hi.

Polaris was, absolutely, portrayed as -the- problem at the beginning of Austen's run. She was portrayed as wildly aggressive, almost sociopathic, and nothing that lovely little Havok would love when he came out of his coma after everyone had presumed him dead (except the lady in question, lol). And when you go back and read those issues before Sacred Vows, there's no possible way to root for Polaris. It's only in retrospect, after learning about her experience in the Genoshan genocide that readers can go Oooooh! Expletiiiive! I'm a 30+ year fan of Polaris and Havok, so I was reading comics before that. And as a Polaris fan, it was a REALLY hard time in the early 00s (in the confines of a fandom, of course) to be a Polaris fan when Austen was writing the X-Men. Eeeveryone hated her, and eeeeveryone was team Havok. And I'm not going to allow that history to be rewritten.

And to expand on what you were saying... in the other occasions... those times Havok was treated as "the bad guy"... it wasn't for Polaris' sake... it was to build on Havok as a character. To show his flaws.

Ultimately, I don't think there's a single couple in Marvel comics that have been shown trying to kill each other as much as Havok and Polaris. Lmao.

And in a way, I kindof love that for them as characters...

I wasn't there. I learned of Lorna in 2009, after everything transpired.

But as a Lorna fan who's got decades of media consumption under his belt, that dealt with similar situations in other communities, it's time for me to say something about this. And I'm going to start not with Lorna or X-Men or even Marvel, but with something else I'm a huge fan of that I dealt with.

Before Lorna, my favorite female character was Rosa Farrell from Final Fantasy IV. Unlike Lorna, I had been a fan of the character ever since the game released way back in 1991 on SNES as FF2. Why did I love the character? Because she was a caring badass. She crossed a desert to warn Cecil about Baron coming after him, and made it by herself, only coming down with Desert Fever which anyone could get! She helped Rydia get over her fear of fire with empathy that Cecil and Edward couldn't give! When Fabul was attacked by Baron, and Kain and Golbez almost killed the entire party then and there, Rosa sacrificed herself to save them and trusted Cecil to come save her. Her willingness to forgive and see good in people led to Kain helping them in their final fight. And when it came time to actually go to the final fight, rather than waste time arguing with Cecil, she stowed away on the Lunar Whale and confronted him about his sexism ("chivalrous" though it may have been intended) when it was too late for him and the others to keep her out of it. And then you factor in the gameplay and she's a literal lifesaver.

That's... not what most people I ran into online saw two decades ago. Because they didn't bother to pay attention to the story, or think it through. To most people I ran into, Rosa was nothing more than a weak damsel in distress who undermined Cecil's mission twice and had no depth to her beyond "loves Cecil." I saw a lot of people insist the game would have been better without her. Many of them also didn't realize that Rosa was THE template for caring female white mage lead heroines from FF7 to FF10 - another issue that meant they didn't see her unique traits, considering them to just be "typical white mage traits." So even though Aeris, Rinoa, Garnet and Yuna each had more damsel in distress scenarios with causes less understandable than Rosa's, that they had other aspects built on meant a lot of people didn't hold that against them like they did to Rosa.

In short, there was nothing wrong with how Rosa was written in the original FF4. She wasn't this frail weak flower who constantly needs saving that people made her out to be. She had more depth than that. People just lacked media literacy and rushed to judging her negatively.

What we're talking about here, with writing of Lorna in the Austen era? It's the Exact. Same. Thing.

She had JUST experienced a genocide. That is NOT something that was retroactive. Anyone with a sliver of media literacy, who put real thought into what they were reading and didn't misjudge her by past depictions, should have kept New X-Men 132 in mind. You don't need to see the explicit scenes of her watching all those millions die to understand that this woman who was just pulled out of the ruins, naked and suffering from the horrendous trauma of a genocide that she had to keep reliving as her powers replayed those final moments over and over, is going to have some issues. She's going to have trouble processing the pain. She's going to have mood swings. She's going to look for ways to ease the pain, she's going to react strongly to perceived threats. Not everyone who experiences trauma does so in the same ways. There are many ways of expressing trauma, and many paths to healing.

It's not Lorna's fault that people back in the 00s refused to acknowledge that trauma means something. It's not her fault that some people had their heads in the sand because they wanted her to go back to their nostalgia-laced ideas of her that say she's not allowed to have a trauma reaction where she reacts in any way other than "I need a man to comfort me." I will grant two (2) missteps. One, when Havok left her at the altar, Lorna should have been blaming and going after Havok - not Annie. It was Havok's choice. And two, maybe Austen should have been clearer about how her behavior was a result of processing her trauma from the Genoshan genocide.

But then again... Austen did that. When he explicitly showed flashback scenes of Lorna during the genocide itself. In other words, he took what people should have understood from the "gaps" of the story, and because they didn't, he pulled those moments OUT of the gaps and put them straight on the page to try to get people to understand that hey, Lorna's been through some shit, that has to actually mean something or else what's the point of even having comic books. And yet, despite Austen eventually spelling it all out in big bright neon letters, some people still insisted on ignoring the obvious so they could keep ragging on Lorna being written in a more complex manner than their nostalgia.

Far from "rewriting history," this is putting history into its proper context. It's the same thing as archaeologists today recognizing that Viking women did, in fact, participate in battle, and the claim that they never did was based entirely on past archaeologists deciding to ignore context and force their presumptions about gender roles ("only men fight and use swords, women stay in the kitchen where they belong") onto centuries old finds.

And that wraps up my post here. Apologies to Havok fans for coming onto the thread to talk about Polaris, but I felt it was necessary given what was being claimed here about Lorna.

[GoingGreen]

Sorry about my stalker, everyone.

Hey. Hello. Hi.



I wasn't there. I learned of Lorna in 2009, after everything transpired.

But as a Lorna fan who's got decades of media consumption under his belt, that dealt with similar situations in other communities, it's time for me to say something about this. And I'm going to start not with Lorna or X-Men or even Marvel, but with something else I'm a huge fan of that I dealt with.

Before Lorna, my favorite female character was Rosa Farrell from Final Fantasy IV. Unlike Lorna, I had been a fan of the character ever since the game released way back in 1991 on SNES as FF2. Why did I love the character? Because she was a caring badass. She crossed a desert to warn Cecil about Baron coming after him, and made it by herself, only coming down with Desert Fever which anyone could get! She helped Rydia get over her fear of fire with empathy that Cecil and Edward couldn't give! When Fabul was attacked by Baron, and Kain and Golbez almost killed the entire party then and there, Rosa sacrificed herself to save them and trusted Cecil to come save her. Her willingness to forgive and see good in people led to Kain helping them in their final fight. And when it came time to actually go to the final fight, rather than waste time arguing with Cecil, she stowed away on the Lunar Whale and confronted him about his sexism ("chivalrous" though it may have been intended) when it was too late for him and the others to keep her out of it. And then you factor in the gameplay and she's a literal lifesaver.

That's... not what most people I ran into online saw two decades ago. Because they didn't bother to pay attention to the story, or think it through. To most people I ran into, Rosa was nothing more than a weak damsel in distress who undermined Cecil's mission twice and had no depth to her beyond "loves Cecil." I saw a lot of people insist the game would have been better without her. Many of them also didn't realize that Rosa was THE template for caring female white mage lead heroines from FF7 to FF10 - another issue that meant they didn't see her unique traits, considering them to just be "typical white mage traits." So even though Aeris, Rinoa, Garnet and Yuna each had more damsel in distress scenarios with causes less understandable than Rosa's, that they had other aspects built on meant a lot of people didn't hold that against them like they did to Rosa.

In short, there was nothing wrong with how Rosa was written in the original FF4. She wasn't this frail weak flower who constantly needs saving that people made her out to be. She had more depth than that. People just lacked media literacy and rushed to judging her negatively.

What we're talking about here, with writing of Lorna in the Austen era? It's the Exact. Same. Thing.

She had JUST experienced a genocide. That is NOT something that was retroactive. Anyone with a sliver of media literacy, who put real thought into what they were reading and didn't misjudge her by past depictions, should have kept New X-Men 132 in mind. You don't need to see the explicit scenes of her watching all those millions die to understand that this woman who was just pulled out of the ruins, naked and suffering from the horrendous trauma of a genocide that she had to keep reliving as her powers replayed those final moments over and over, is going to have some issues. She's going to have trouble processing the pain. She's going to have mood swings. She's going to look for ways to ease the pain, she's going to react strongly to perceived threats. Not everyone who experiences trauma does so in the same ways. There are many ways of expressing trauma, and many paths to healing.

It's not Lorna's fault that people back in the 00s refused to acknowledge that trauma means something. It's not her fault that some people had their heads in the sand because they wanted her to go back to their nostalgia-laced ideas of her that say she's not allowed to have a trauma reaction where she reacts in any way other than "I need a man to comfort me." I will grant two (2) missteps. One, when Havok left her at the altar, Lorna should have been blaming and going after Havok - not Annie. It was Havok's choice. And two, maybe Austen should have been clearer about how her behavior was a result of processing her trauma from the Genoshan genocide.

But then again... Austen did that. When he explicitly showed flashback scenes of Lorna during the genocide itself. In other words, he took what people should have understood from the "gaps" of the story, and because they didn't, he pulled those moments OUT of the gaps and put them straight on the page to try to get people to understand that hey, Lorna's been through some shit, that has to actually mean something or else what's the point of even having comic books. And yet, despite Austen eventually spelling it all out in big bright neon letters, some people still insisted on ignoring the obvious so they could keep ragging on Lorna being written in a more complex manner than their nostalgia.

Far from "rewriting history," this is putting history into its proper context. It's the same thing as archaeologists today recognizing that Viking women did, in fact, participate in battle, and the claim that they never did was based entirely on past archaeologists deciding to ignore context and force their presumptions about gender roles ("only men fight and use swords, women stay in the kitchen where they belong") onto centuries old finds.

And that wraps up my post here. Apologies to Havok fans for coming onto the thread to talk about Polaris, but I felt it was necessary given what was being claimed here about Lorna.

Yeah, a 30+ year die hard Polaris fan really got things wrong, I should really listen to someone else to know HOW to like something that I like... I'm a real dunce here, and my personal experiences while the ISSUES WERE BEING RELEASED IN REAL TIME mean absolutely nothing because some dude comes in and mansplains how to be a REAL Polaris fan. Because Final Fantasy 4 or something. Like, what?

Polaris was, on panel, for a solid year+, treated as Havok's personal villain. And if you read it as it was released, as it was intended to be read by the author who had this published, there's no other way to read it. It's REALLY nice to come in and read things years later when the context has been completely changed and think you know what you're talking about.

I recognize that the canon has changed as a result of what was released after - and I am GRATEFUL that canon has changed. But the canon was completely different before Polaris' experience was revealed.

As a Havok fan, I appreciate the apology of unnecessarily derailing the conversation to share a bias that could've been shared where it belongs - in the Polaris thread.

Bye.