Similar to my Wally West thread, when you think Barbara Gordon, do you think of her as Batgirl or as Oracle?
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Similar to my Wally West thread, when you think Barbara Gordon, do you think of her as Batgirl or as Oracle?
Batgirl is iconic and everything, but pretty much all my favorite Barbara Gordon stories are Oracle stories.
Batgirl(i prefer barbara when she's more than just the support class)
When I think of Barbara Gordon I think of Batgirl, and when I think of Batgirl I think of Barbara Gordon.
Batgirl. Oracle is a decent concept, but a downgrade for a superhero like Barbara. I thought it was much more interesting in fact when Chloe basically had a similar role in Smallville. And being consistently paralyzed made no sense in regards to the world she lived in and the magnificent beings she lived among and the wonders they were capable of.
Im a fan of them both.
I like both, but I'll give the edge to Oracle because I find that version of her more interesting, despite (or maybe because of) the fact that I mostly don't like her personality.
I think both Batgirl and Oracle are strong, iconic, and empowering identities in their own right and that Babs is responsible for defining them, and they both have a great deal to do with how popular and longstanding a character she is.
I also think Cassandra and Stephanie did justice to the mantle of Batgirl and Barbara's legacy during their tenures.
[QUOTE=Frontier;1969288] I also think Cassandra and Stephanie did justice to the mantle of Batgirl and Barbara's legacy during their tenures.[/QUOTE]
Yep. They were both good examples of either end of the spectrum for that role. A great way to show how versatile the role of Batgirl can be.
Helena B.'s time in the suit is noteworthy too, though very, very short.
[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;1969254]Batgirl. Oracle is a decent concept, but a downgrade for a superhero like Barbara. I thought it was much more interesting in fact when Chloe basically had a similar role in Smallville. And being consistently paralyzed made no sense in regards to the world she lived in and the magnificent beings she lived among and the wonders they were capable of.[/QUOTE]
Oracle was more of an upgrade than a downgrade in my opinion.
Barbara Gordon as Oracle had one of the most unique and fascinating narratives in comics. She was the ultimate underdog, a superhero who couldn't walk. And yet she grit her teeth, took **** from no one, and reinvented herself to become more important to the superhero community than she ever was before. And she did it from a wheelchair, without superpowers or incredible physical ability. She also found time to build up her relationships with a host of other heroes. And she also played very important roles in the development of two other very interesting characters: Cassandra Cain and Stephanie Brown.
Batgirl easily.
Oracle for me.
[QUOTE=Jcogginsa;1969322]Oracle was more of an upgrade than a downgrade in my opinion.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. She went from being a sidekick to leading her own team and a major power player in the DCU.
Definitely Batgirl. When I think of Batgirl I think of images of Yvonne Craig and Batman TAS Batgirl. All of which are Barbara Gordon. She was super cool as Oracle but Babsgirl is iconic.
Batgirl all the way. When someone invents a role, It's THEIRS. As the first Batgirl and introduced to through Yvonne Craig... That's the batgirl I'll always remember.
Sitting in a tower and feeding Batman info... was really lame for BOTH of the characters.
Jeez, guys; can't you [i]ever[/i] provide a poll with sufficient options? I like her being both: Oracle as her hacker handle when she's fighting the good fight online, and Batgirl when she's getting up close and personal.
[QUOTE=Jcogginsa;1969322]Oracle was more of an upgrade than a downgrade in my opinion.[/QUOTE]Definitely. But supplementing her Oracle persona with Batgirl action would be a step up from there.
I would never have suggested to anyone that they have Joker torture and humiliate Barbara Gordon and turn her into a paraplegic. Of course, no one asked me.
But once it was done, and they started running stories with Barbara as Oracle, I really liked the character. I found her fascinating. Someone on this thread referred to her "sitting in her tower giving info to Batman," but of course her main role was in the [I]Birds of Prey[/I] - where I considered her the primary, and best, character. It turns out I can greatly enjoy a character who doesn't swing through the city on a rope and mainly punch people, if she's well-written.
And I know that many readers who are themselves in wheelchairs found her inspiring, and I don't think that's nothing.
So I wasn't thrilled that they "turned her back into Batgirl" for The New 52. (For something that was supposed to move us forward, The New 52 "turned back" a lot of characters.) And I thought it was particularly odd that they implicitly kept her time as Oracle in the continuity, while hardly ever mentioning it, and de-aging Batgirl to the point where she looks like a teenager. If you're going to undo a character development like that, and make the character much younger, why not just excise it from continuity? It looks so squished and de-emphasized this way.
The original Robin, Wonder Girl, Speedy, Aqualad, and Kid Flash all (at some time in what was the "primary DCU") grew up, gave up those identities, took on new ones, and saw other, younger characters take on the names. Now Batgirl is a somewhat intermediate case, because she was never quite the "sidekick" to Batman as Robin was. But I still see no reason why somebody else couldn't take on the Batgirl role.
And I prefer Barbara Gordon as someone who is older and has more experience - someone I had long since stopped thinking of as a "girl."
But that's just me. I begrudge no one their enjoyment of Barbara as Batgirl.
I agree with all of this, with one caveat: now that N52 has taken Barbara Gordon out of her wheelchair, Doctor Bifrost's first paragraph takes on new significance. Do you now put her [i]back into a wheelchair[/i]?
Unless you “Bobby Ewing” the N52 and declare that the last five years were just a dream, I don't see how you get “Barbara Gordon, inspiration for the disabled” back.
So we can get Oracle back, to an extent — that extent being Barbara as a force to be reckoned with in the digital world. What's gone is the part of Oracle that demonstrates her iron will in no uncertain terms in the form of a disability that doesn't even slow her down. And with that part gone, why [i]not[/i] put her in a costume swinging around the rooftops and beating up badguys — and breaking into secure facilities that she can't get into by remote?
I prefer Barbara as Batgirl but I don't understand why she can't be both.
[QUOTE=phantom1592;1969387]Sitting in a tower and feeding Batman info... was really lame for BOTH of the characters.[/QUOTE]
Of course in Birds Of Prey she lead her own superteam, hunted down international crime organisations, fought Brainiac, and occasionally beat up bad guys with her fists.
Oracle was JLA material, Batgirl didn't even make it into the Teen Titans.
You shouldn't judge a character by what some lazy writer does with her in another character's book. Oracle was massively more powerful than any version of Batgirl.
[QUOTE=Carabas;1969660]Of course in Birds Of Prey she lead her own superteam, hunted down international crime organisations, fought Brainiac, and occasionally beat up bad guys with her fists.
Oracle was JLA material, Batgirl didn't even make it into the Teen Titans.
You shouldn't judge a character by what some lazy writer does with her in another character's book. Oracle was massively more powerful than any version of Batgirl.[/QUOTE]
Nicely put.
One is a woman who overcame a terrible tragedy and used her intelligence to become a powerful force for good and great role model for disabled people.
The other is a second rate Batman knock-off who's in it for **** and giggles.
There's no contest for me. It doesn't mean I think they should go back though. Firstly they should go forwards not backwards and secondly they screwed it up when they kept Oracle as part of her history
I prefer her as Batgirl, but I love several Oracle stories as well.
Really though, the old continuity should have just come to a close, and the New 52 should have given us an early 20s Barbara with the Killing Joke never happening. New canon, she doesn't have to follow the same path. People would still be pissed, but I think it would have gone over slightly better. I find the notion that Barbara is doomed to end up in a wheelchair no matter what continuity she's in kind of messed up. They certainly shouldn't put her back in it now.
Easy question: I think of her first as Batgirl.
I was born in the early 1960s, and among the early Batman comics I got as a kid was:
[img]http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/b/b6/Detective_Comics_369.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081218190800[/img]
I watched the Batman TV show with Adam West when it was originally run on ABC.
I loved when she and Dick (as Robin) would both star in [B][I]Batman Family[/I][/B].
[img]http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/6/6f/Batman_Family_Vol_1_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090104170927[/img]
So, as interesting as it might have been when John Ostrander's [I]Suicide Squad[/I] took a broken Barbara Gordon and remade her into Oracle, she'll always be, first and foremost, Batgirl (or, at worse, "former Batgirl") in my mind.
Oracle. As Oracle she was the best at what she does, its the only role where she can be elite. As Oracle she could be on par with members of the Justice League in terms of importance to the universe (not saying she was always written that way but she could be).
As Batgirl she will always just be a mid tier street leveler, it's such a downgrade.
[QUOTE=Dataweaver;1969405]Jeez, guys; can't you [i]ever[/i] provide a poll with sufficient options? I like her being both: Oracle as her hacker handle when she's fighting the good fight online, and Batgirl when she's getting up close and personal.
Definitely. But supplementing her Oracle persona with Batgirl action would be a step up from there.[/QUOTE]
Eh, I don't think being Batgirl adds much to the character.
Batgirl was a new beginning from the stagnation that Oracle faced. Oracle was amazing, powerful, and JLA tier. Yet her time in JLA was unfortunately short lived, and it came to a point where the only place for Oracle was supporting the new Batgirl. At some point Oracle stopped progressing. Batgirl is younger and less experience, but thats not necessarily a bad thing. Babs can grow from there and we can get things like her Burnside run. There's a sense of progression there again with Babs as Batgirl that stopped being there with her as Oracle. Which isn't on Oracle, but more so DC and their inability to try different things with Oracle. So while i adore Oracle, and miss Oracle, i don't miss that and do see the advantages of Batgirl.
[QUOTE=MajorHoy;1969950]
So, as interesting as it might have been when John Ostrander's [I]Suicide Squad[/I] took a broken Barbara Gordon and remade her into Oracle, she'll always be, first and foremost, Batgirl (or, at worse, "former Batgirl") in my mind.[/QUOTE]I'm in the process of discovering Ostrander's Squad (being 6 years old in '88), the ending of the 3rd trade ROGUES hinting towards Oracle. Very excited for trade number four (coming this summer) and seeing Oracle's first steps
Oracle.
No contest.
[QUOTE=Doctor Bifrost;1969451]So I wasn't thrilled that they "turned her back into Batgirl" for The New 52. (For something that was supposed to move us forward, The New 52 "turned back" a lot of characters.) [/QUOTE]
Well yes, as you are certainly aware the New 52 essentially restored the pre-COIE status quo for a bunch of characters, the best example being Superman. That's probably why I was mostly happy with it. Obviously some wires got crossed with eg the Teen Titans so let's not go there, but generally I'm happy with the restoration of "my" Batgirl.
Anyway, I disliked Oracle for the simple reason that what she did was ridiculous. If you know low-level details about computers and networking, and I do, then every time she "hacked" into eg a security camera, it was cringe-inducingly awful. In fact, every time she used a computer for anything, it was absurd. I know it's comics and most people are thinking it's all so technical and cool but in terms of taking me out of the story, you might as well have Bat-Mite show up, snap his fingers to fix whatever mystery is afoot and then sit down to a nice game of Yahtzee with Batman.
By the way, this is one reason why I can't take many of the Marvel movies seriously: they often hinge on strong artificial intelligence (eg Jarvis and pretty much everything in Tony Stark's lab), which, were it treated even halfway realistically, would completely transform human existence in ways we are only starting to come to grips with.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;1970609]Batgirl was a new beginning from the stagnation that Oracle faced. Oracle was amazing, powerful, and JLA tier. Yet her time in JLA was unfortunately short lived, and it came to a point where the only place for Oracle was supporting the new Batgirl. At some point Oracle stopped progressing. Batgirl is younger and less experience, but thats not necessarily a bad thing. Babs can grow from there and we can get things like her Burnside run. There's a sense of progression there again with Babs as Batgirl that stopped being there with her as Oracle. Which isn't on Oracle, but more so DC and their inability to try different things with Oracle. So while i adore Oracle, and miss Oracle, i don't miss that and do see the advantages of Batgirl.[/QUOTE]
She didn't really stagnate, and a good writer can always bring new life into a character, particularly one that is as unique as her. In Miller's Batgirl, she was as much of a protagonist as Stephanie, just like Dick and Damian were in Morrison's Batman and Robin. She had her own supporting characters, her own relationships, her own point of view, and a great character arc in which she's inspired by Stephanie after seeing so much of her younger self in her. Even the title could be interpreted to refer to Barbara's legacy as much as Stephanie's alter-ego.
The great thing about the concept of legacies is that you build off an older character's existing history while also developing a younger character for newer readers. Miles Morales is one of the finest examples, as he represents an awkward teenaged Spider-Man for a new generation, while Peter Parker holds onto to all of his own history and does whatever Dan Slott wants him to do. And at the same time, Miles's character arc isn't restricted to having to go through the same beats as Peter does.
Yes she did. Oracle had plenty of good writers, but she still was just cast doing the same usual things, helping to support others as they move forward and grow, but never actually growing herself or doing something we haven't seen her do before. Especially at time when everybody else around her were embarking on new journeys. Dick became Batman and started taking care of Damian, Tim was forced to become Red Robin, Steph became the new Batgirl, while Babs just made a secondary protagonist in Batgirl rehashing a character arc she should have been well beyond (Her being miserable). And its not like we haven't seen Babs mentor a new Batgirl before. Oracle stopped progressing, and Babs stopped doing new things. Or more accurately DC stopped doing new things with Oracle. Of course a good writer can always bring new life into a character, but DC didn't seem very interested in bringing new life into Oracle. They eventually relaunched BOP, and brought Gail Simone back to do it, but even that was kind of a bloated mess trying to recapture the magic it once had.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;1970609]Batgirl was a new beginning from the stagnation that Oracle faced.[/QUOTE]
Gail Simone had just launched Oracle into a new direction, away from being the person that does most of the detecting for the World's Greatest Detective less than one arc before Flashpoint hit.
[QUOTE]Yes she did. Oracle had plenty of good writers, but she still was just cast doing the same usual things, helping to support others as they move forward and grow, but never actually growing herself or doing something we haven't seen her do before.[/QUOTE]
Question: what did you read that had Oracle in it?
Mind you, there was indeed a horrid period at the end of the first Birds Of Prey book where Oracle was terminally incompetent and people started to drop dead whenever she touched a computer, because DC intended to revert her to Batgirl, before getting cold feet and making Stehanie Batgirl and letting Gail Simone relaunch Birds Of Prey.
I read it all. Yes, the tail end of BoP and that cure mini was awful, but its not like BQM or Gail Simone were bad writers.
[QUOTE=Carabas;1969660]Of course in Birds Of Prey she lead her own superteam, hunted down international crime organisations, fought Brainiac, and occasionally beat up bad guys with her fists.
Oracle was JLA material, Batgirl didn't even make it into the Teen Titans.
You shouldn't judge a character by what some lazy writer does with her in another character's book. Oracle was massively more powerful than any version of Batgirl.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Doctor Bifrost;1969451]
But once it was done, and they started running stories with Barbara as Oracle, I really liked the character. I found her fascinating. Someone on this thread referred to her "sitting in her tower giving info to Batman," but of course her main role was in the [I]Birds of Prey[/I] - where I considered her the primary, and best, character. It turns out I can greatly enjoy a character who doesn't swing through the city on a rope and mainly punch people, if she's well-written.
[/QUOTE]
Well, it seems she originated as Oracle in 1986, and didn't start Birds of Prey until a one shot in 1995, and vol 1 starting in 1999...
So for she spent the better part of 10-15 years as 'a character in someone else's book'... and when she DID have her own book she never really LEFT the other books. She was still as strong a presence in Batman's adventures and even Nightwing's adventure as Alfred or Gordon. Honestly, I didn't like 'oracle' in those stories, since she took away from the 'main' character's abilities from the relative safety of her tower. It just really took a lot away from me. Batgirl or Robin are a different category of 'partner' since they're right there dodging bullets with Batman... but the voice in the earbud with all the answers bores me.
I DID read some Birds of Prey... but I was not a fan of powerless Dinah and hated Huntress, so that was an uphill sell for me. A friend collected them, and I read them when I had already looked at his other stuff, but that book never impressed me. Even as the 'leader' of the team, she was still portrayed as the voice on the phone... Reminded me too much of Charlies Angels.
I know occasionally she did field work and stuff.. just not the ones I read. So it doesn't sound like her 'normal' role.
[QUOTE=Dataweaver;1969553]I agree with all of this, with one caveat: now that N52 has taken Barbara Gordon out of her wheelchair, Doctor Bifrost's first paragraph takes on new significance. Do you now put her [i]back into a wheelchair[/i]?[/QUOTE]
I wouldn't do that. Too much toggling back and forth trivializes the whole thing. (I think they already trivialized it by reversing it and de-emphasizing it so much, but this would be even more so.) Unless all of The New 52 is a dream (something that I admit I think about from time to time...), Barbara's out of the wheelchair. Now do something new with her.
But I wouldn't mind somebody else being Batgirl. Doesn't Barbara get to grow up, at least as much as Dick Grayson did?
[QUOTE=MajorHoy;1969950]Easy question: I think of her first as Batgirl.
I was born in the early 1960s, and among the early Batman comics I got as a kid was:
[img]http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/b/b6/Detective_Comics_369.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20081218190800[/img]
I watched the Batman TV show with Adam West when it was originally run on ABC.
I loved when she and Dick (as Robin) would both star in [B][I]Batman Family[/I][/B].
[img]http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/marvel_dc/images/6/6f/Batman_Family_Vol_1_1.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20090104170927[/img]
So, as interesting as it might have been when John Ostrander's [I]Suicide Squad[/I] took a broken Barbara Gordon and remade her into Oracle, she'll always be, first and foremost, Batgirl (or, at worse, "former Batgirl") in my mind.[/QUOTE]
She was "former Batgirl" when she was Oracle. There's no contradiction there. I notice that the covers you posted have Dick Grayson as Robin. How do you feel about the fact that he's Nightwing now (again, I think)?
[QUOTE=cgh;1970727]Anyway, I disliked Oracle for the simple reason that what she did was ridiculous. If you know low-level details about computers and networking, and I do, then every time she "hacked" into eg a security camera, it was cringe-inducingly awful. In fact, every time she used a computer for anything, it was absurd. I know it's comics and most people are thinking it's all so technical and cool but in terms of taking me out of the story, you might as well have Bat-Mite show up, snap his fingers to fix whatever mystery is afoot and then sit down to a nice game of Yahtzee with Batman.[/QUOTE]
Interesting, never really thought of it in these terms, mostly because I'm not a computer geek and all the technical jargon just goes right over my head. I'm guessing a lot of Oracle's hax abilities are a big load of BS to someone more knowledgeable?
[QUOTE=cgh;1970727]Anyway, I disliked Oracle for the simple reason that what she did was ridiculous. If you know low-level details about computers and networking, and I do, then every time she "hacked" into eg a security camera, it was cringe-inducingly awful.[/QUOTE]
If this gap between DCU technology and technology in The So-Called Real World™ is enough to sour you on a character, you must be very sour on a lot of characters and a lot of storylines. Which is entirely your privilege, of course. (There are times when it goes to far for me too, but Oracle seemed like the least of it.)
[QUOTE]By the way, this is one reason why I can't take many of the Marvel movies seriously: they often hinge on strong artificial intelligence (eg Jarvis and pretty much everything in Tony Stark's lab), which, were it treated even halfway realistically, would completely transform human existence in ways we are only starting to come to grips with.[/QUOTE]
So would first contact, frequent alien invasions, healing nanobots, GLC rings, memory downloads and uploads, the verifiable presence of deities, and about a hundred other things. Neither DC nor Marvel does a very good job of (a) extrapolating the changes they've introduced into their worlds, or (b) building in restrictions to those changes so the world can still resemble, on a macro level, the world we're used to. World-building - which includes considering the implications of any change or advancement you introduce into your fictional setting - is a huge topic for science fiction and fantasy. But most comics, along with many TV series and movies, just skip the effort so they can get to the punching and blowing things up part. Which I think is regrettable.
[QUOTE=phantom1592;1971397]I DID read some Birds of Prey... but I was not a fan of powerless Dinah and hated Huntress, so that was an uphill sell for me.[/QUOTE]
Powerles Dinah? Gail treated her scream like a mini-nuke.
And not too mention played her up as a kung fu master.
But initially in BOP, till her dip in the Lazarus pit, she didn't have her cry.