What do you think Peter will do if he regains his doctorate?
Rebuild Parker Industries?
Become a ESU professor?
Return to the Bugle as science editor?
I would ask about Horizon U if Superior Spider Man wasn't there?
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What do you think Peter will do if he regains his doctorate?
Rebuild Parker Industries?
Become a ESU professor?
Return to the Bugle as science editor?
I would ask about Horizon U if Superior Spider Man wasn't there?
I don't think Peter is ever gonna get a doctorate. He's gonna be perpetually in grad school.
Slott in allowing Octopus to get the Doctorate by cheating and inhabiting Peter's body was commenting on and working on a status-quo that was never supposed to last and the fact that Peter didn't legitimately earn the doctorate and now has to do the slow grind and return back to basics was always on the cards.
[quote]Rebuild Parker Industries?[/quote]
Rebuild? He didn't build Parker Industries to start with. IT was Ock who did that in fraudulent circumstances and Peter had to deal with a company he didn't create and didn't want.
At most you can have Peter build a new startup and work as a plucky newcomer who tries to make something of himself.
[quote]Become a ESU professor?[/quote]
In his current status, Peter can best aspire to be a TA and teach undergraduates which would be a reprise of Peter teaching high school.
I am sure that Spencer might have ideas on what kind of jobs and so on Peter can do, but it's all gonna be seasonal, limited, temporary and nothing lasting.
He probably should never get a doctorate, at least as long as we expect the book to continue for a long period of time. This part of the story shouldn't be told, since professional happiness is more about the ending.
Excuse me? Why can't he get his doctorate?
[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4468282]Excuse me? Why can't he get his doctorate?[/QUOTE]
For a variety of reasons. I think it ages him too much, and it marks an ending to a story engine that's been part of the series from the beginning (balancing his academic life as well as his private life and job.)
[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4468282]Excuse me? Why can't he get his doctorate?[/QUOTE]
I guess not everyone's familiar. Basically a doctorate is the highest qualification you can get as a student. The minute Peter gets a doctorate, he's not a student anymore. He will have to publish stuff in peer-reviewed journals, or find work in the private sector but mostly Peter's no longer a student of any capacity when he gets a doctorate.
In 616, Peter's graduated from high school, then college, but grad school is where he's been at since ASM #195 or so. Grad school allows flexibility because Peter can work for a living, he can choose to skip credits and choose to come back and graduate again, and you can slide up and down from young to adult...Peter can be in grad school and work, he can be in grad school and teach high school and so on and so forth.
It's basically a symbolic thing and so on.
Dan Slott's run is basically...I wouldn't say illusion of change...but illusion of progress. He was deliberately enacting the fantasy of Peter progressing professionally albeit being emotionally immature and incapable because he didn't earn or merit that progress by himself. Anyone familiar with Spider-Man continuity and lore could see the crap he was pulling and the ridiculous con underneath everything in his run.
[QUOTE=Mister Mets;4468299]For a variety of reasons. I think it ages him too much, and it marks an ending to a story engine that's been part of the series from the beginning (balancing his academic life as well as his private life and job.)[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4468319]I guess not everyone's familiar. Basically a doctorate is the highest qualification you can get as a student. The minute Peter gets a doctorate, he's not a student anymore. He will have to publish stuff in peer-reviewed journals, or find work in the private sector but mostly Peter's no longer a student of any capacity when he gets a doctorate.
In 616, Peter's graduated from high school, then college, but grad school is where he's been at since ASM #195 or so. Grad school allows flexibility because Peter can work for a living, he can choose to skip credits and choose to come back and graduate again, and you can slide up and down from young to adult...Peter can be in grad school and work, he can be in grad school and teach high school and so on and so forth.
It's basically a symbolic thing and so on.
Dan Slott's run is basically...I wouldn't say illusion of change...but illusion of progress. He was deliberately enacting the fantasy of Peter progressing professionally albeit being emotionally immature and incapable because he didn't earn or merit that progress by himself. Anyone familiar with Spider-Man continuity and lore could see the crap he was pulling and the ridiculous con underneath everything in his run.[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but no. Peter is fully allowed to get his doctorate just like he is fully allowed to teach a classroom, or be a fully funded scientist, or even a freelance photographer. He can and in my opinion should because then we may be able to actually move the story past the same age that he's at for 700 issues. I get the whole "keeping him young" thing, but Marvel and the rest of us have to realize that this is 100% unrealistic and straining suspension of disbelief. Realistically, he would be about 30 to 35 for any of the story beats to work for the past 700 issues (I'm counting from issue 186, when he graduated college). Heck, we didn't even see him get his Master's...when did that happen?!
My point is, that he can get his doctorate and I think he needs to so that we can finally move the story forward past its perpetual spot. Otherwise, we're only going in circles, which breaks any illusion.
[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4468332]I'm sorry, but no. Peter is fully allowed to get his doctorate just like he is fully allowed to teach a classroom, or be a fully funded scientist, or even a freelance photographer. He can and in my opinion should because then we may be able to actually move the story past the same age that he's at for 700 issues. I get the whole "keeping him young" thing, but Marvel and the rest of us have to realize that this is 100% unrealistic and straining suspension of disbelief. Realistically, he would be about 30 to 35 for any of the story beats to work for the past 700 issues (I'm counting from issue 186, when he graduated college). Heck, we didn't even see him get his Master's...when did that happen?!
My point is, that he can get his doctorate and I think he needs to so that we can finally move the story forward past its perpetual spot. Otherwise, we're only going in circles, which breaks any illusion.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you. It’s just that I am not sure Marvel will do that. I am for Spider-Man growing up, getting his marriage back and so on.
The more I think about it, Peter the "eternal Grad Student" makes sense since Marvel has been trying to put the genie back in the bottle concerning Peter's age since the end of JMS' run.
But they have Miles now. Let Peter be the adult, and give Miles the juggling school and superheroics stories. Peter would still be juggling family, work, and heroism, while Miles doesn't have to worry about making excuses for missing family time, as his loved ones (his parents and Ganke) know his secret anyway, but still has to worry about avoiding falling asleep in class.
flipping burgers
[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4468339]I agree with you. It’s just that I am not sure Marvel will do that. I am for Spider-Man growing up, getting his marriage back and so on.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Digifiend;4468378]But they have Miles now. Let Peter be the adult, and give Miles the juggling school and superheroics stories. Peter would still be juggling family, work, and heroism, while Miles doesn't have to worry about making excuses for missing family time, as his loved ones (his parents and Ganke) know his secret anyway, but still has to worry about avoiding falling asleep in class.[/QUOTE]
I'm hoping that, based on this renaissance with Spider-Man and the success of "Into the Spider-Verse", that Marvel will eventually do it. It seems like they're leading in that direction anyway, given "Life Story", the character growth happening in Spencer's run, and Miles becoming his own hero. If they commit to it, I think it'll finally make Spider-Man fans happy
Something till they feel the need to regress Peter again
[QUOTE=Mister Mets;4468299]For a variety of reasons. I think it ages him too much, and it marks an ending to a story engine that's been part of the series from the beginning (balancing his academic life as well as his private life and job.)[/QUOTE]
It closes one chapter but opens another heck it can open many different chapters in Peter's life: professor/teacher, inventor, full-time employee, company owner, adventurer/researcher, exact. The only limit is the imagination of the writer or writers.
[QUOTE=Jman27;4468482]Something till they feel the need to regress Peter again[/QUOTE]
This is my answer as well.
[QUOTE=Mister Mets;4468299]For a variety of reasons. I think it ages him too much, and it marks an ending to a story engine that's been part of the series from the beginning (balancing his academic life as well as his private life and job.)[/QUOTE]
Shouldn't that be a good thing though he shouldn't be doing the same things over and over again
[QUOTE=Jman27;4468497]Shouldn't that be a good thing though he shouldn't be doing the same things over and over again[/QUOTE]
One would assume but certain people many of whom work at Marvel think the character should never do anything new.
Edit - They are proponents of an atrophied mindset which is rooted deeply in childhood nostalgia.
[QUOTE=Celgress;4468499]One would assume but certain people many of whom work at Marvel think the character should never do anything new.
Edit - They are proponents of an atrophied mindset which is rooted deeply in childhood nostalgia.[/QUOTE]
So I should never expect an ending of 616 Spiderman
[QUOTE=Jman27;4468508]So I should never expect an ending of 616 Spiderman[/QUOTE]
Indeed, friend
Edit - Or any lasting progression. ;)
[QUOTE=Celgress;4468510]Indeed, friend
Edit - Or any lasting progression. ;)[/QUOTE]
This is where manga beats comics for me
[QUOTE=Jman27;4468514]This is where manga beats comics for me[/QUOTE]
Me as well. Manga is (usually) where it is at for modern well-rounded storytelling in graphic novel format.
Edit - Comic book editors could learn a thing or two from their Magna counterparts, IMO.
The weird thing about OMD is that they made Peter more of a manchild than he ever was. Go back and read the Bronze Age Peter, the Peter in Conway/Wein/Wolfman/Stern/Defalco and he came off as a capable young man and so on. The writers wrote Peter without any self-consciousness whatsoever.
So the Peter under Slott is a version of the character that has no grounding in the past. He's self-consciously written by writers/editors to be younger-and-dumber than ever before. He remains the least interesting and least complex version of the character in 616 Continuity.
I guess JMS Peter is still the best Peter for a lot here...that's true for me. That was a version of the character I looked up to.
[QUOTE=Jman27;4468514]This is where manga beats comics for me[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Celgress;4468515]Me as well. Manga is (usually) where it is at for modern well-rounded storytelling in graphic novel format.
Edit - Comic book editors could learn a thing or two from their Magna counterparts, IMO.[/QUOTE]
There are tons of indy comics that have complete endings, so it's not just Manga that can do it: just not the Big Two. They've played with the idea several times without actually committing to it, really (ex. "SM: Life Story" and "Batman: DKR"). In other words, saying "those are alternate futures" - no, give me a true ending. No one lives forever, and neither can these characters, you know?
And I agree that as far as progression, JMS still tops it all because he wrote Peter as an adult. Spencer is quickly getting up there for me. :)
[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4468663]There are tons of indy comics that have complete endings, so it's not just Manga that can do it: just not the Big Two....[/QUOTE]
Agreed certain indy comics have done a fantastic job in this regard.
Edit - I don't understand why for Peter, or any character, growing up is an end in and of itself. Adulthood in real life brings new challenges, not stagnation, in fiction, it is no different. Each stage of life has its own rewards, disappointments, and struggles. It isn't as if Peter will die the second he becomes an adult and is dealing with adult problems or stop being Spider-Man forever because he sires a child (a trope/belief I detest). When he looked after his Aunt May (who was pretty damn helpless at times) as a teen he never ceased his heroics so why would he do so if he has a kid?
I say keep Peter a thirtysomething for the next few decades while letting Miles be the young, hip Spider-Man. Miles is more suited for said role than is Peter anyway given the demographics and culture of today.
[QUOTE=CrimsonEchidna;4468365]The more I think about it, Peter the "eternal Grad Student" makes sense since Marvel has been trying to put the genie back in the bottle concerning Peter's age since the end of JMS' run.[/QUOTE]
As much as I hate it, you're probably right.
[I]sigh[/I].. we'll see.. but another "plagiarism" excuse (Jonah's photo betrayal from years ago and now the accidental 'outing' at ESU) and I'm out the window.
[QUOTE=Celgress;4468755]Agreed certain indy comics have done a fantastic job in this regard.
Edit - I don't understand why for Peter, or any character, growing up is an end in and of itself. Adulthood in real life brings new challenges, not stagnation, in fiction, it is no different. Each stage of life has its own rewards, disappointments, and struggles. It isn't as if Peter will die the second he becomes an adult and is dealing with adult problems or stop being Spider-Man forever because he sires a child (a trope/belief I detest). When he looked after his Aunt May (who was pretty damn helpless at times) as a teen he never ceased his heroics so why would he do so if he has a kid?
I say keep Peter a thirtysomething for the next few decades while letting Miles be the young, hip Spider-Man. Miles is more suited for said role than is Peter anyway given the demographics and culture of today.[/QUOTE]
Agreed on all counts! Sounds like we're on the same page!
[QUOTE=Jman27;4468514]This is where manga beats comics for me[/QUOTE]
Eh, there are MANY manga series (most of them which are the most popular of their bunch), which do the exact same thing as most of the major Big 2 comic characters. An illusion of change and some development, but for the most part just keep the story going for as indefinite amount of time as possible. You can like how some of them may handle it more than others, but they still inherently do the same things.
[QUOTE=Inversed;4469438]Eh, there are MANY manga series (most of them which are the most popular of their bunch), which do the exact same thing as most of the major Big 2 comic characters. An illusion of change and some development, but for the most part just keep the story going for as indefinite amount of time as possible. You can like how some of them may handle it more than others, but they still inherently do the same things.[/QUOTE]
But most do it better, at least IMO.
[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4468587]The weird thing about OMD is that they made Peter more of a manchild than he ever was. Go back and read the Bronze Age Peter, the Peter in Conway/Wein/Wolfman/Stern/Defalco and he came off as a capable young man and so on. The writers wrote Peter without any self-consciousness whatsoever.
So the Peter under Slott is a version of the character that has no grounding in the past. He's self-consciously written by writers/editors to be younger-and-dumber than ever before. He remains the least interesting and least complex version of the character in 616 Continuity.
I guess JMS Peter is still the best Peter for a lot here...that's true for me. That was a version of the character I looked up to.[/QUOTE]
I think there’s a bit of nostalgia in there because I honestly don’t see any of the maturity. If Busiek is writing I can see it, but most of the time, no.
[QUOTE=Hypestyle;4468851][I]sigh[/I].. we'll see.. but another "plagiarism" excuse (Jonah's photo betrayal from years ago and now the accidental 'outing' at ESU) and I'm out the window.[/QUOTE]
Peter DID plagiarize his thesis. Look I know a lot of people see that as enforcing the status-quo but that wasn't Spencer's fault or anyone's. IT was Slott's.
Slott was totally cynical in his entire run about Peter "progressing". It was built on crap. It was completely unearned every step of the way. He got the job at Horizon because Aunt May married Jameson Sr. who pulled strings and got Peter to work at Horizon, Ock created the company in his body, and so on and so forth. The reason Slott did that was that he wanted things both ways. He wanted Peter to taste some amount of advancement, mostly so that Slott didn't write Peter as a traditional struggling hero since he had no interest doing that...but he also wanted Peter to be young and dumb, and so he created Peter "Failing upwards" in that run.
And I don't think Peter working at Horizon was really interesting. It basically devolved into an excuse about big dumb props. The same with Worldwide.
[QUOTE=PCN24454;4469695]I think there’s a bit of nostalgia in there because I honestly don’t see any of the maturity. [/QUOTE]
If you have specifics, I might have something to say. I re-read JMS' run from time to time, as I do earlier stuff. It's not based on memories and so on.
JMS Peter has always been my favorite older/mature version of the character, in particular his stint as a public school teacher. I hope we get to see more of that at some point.
[QUOTE=Jekyll;4471438]JMS Peter has always been my favorite older/mature version of the character, in particular his stint as a public school teacher. I hope we get to see more of that at some point.[/QUOTE]
It's always been my personal feeling that the marriage, contrary to claims by creators that it limited options, actually gave writers more options than before.
The combination of marriage plus comic time means that writers have options on how to show Peter. You can either write them as a young married couple who are still in their early years and making adjustments and so on...or you can portray them as being older with more experience. Take a story like Identity Crisis, which is the best Post-Clone Saga story. There Peter and MJ come across as being very young and youtful, and more or less the emotions of the Clone Saga (the miscarriage/kidnapping and so on which was never addressed) isn't mentioned there and they come off as a little goofy. Especially that great scene where Peter and MJ laugh about how he's gonna troll Norman...which again makes no sense if you accept that Norman kidnapped/killed their unborn kid (which is obviously ignored/downplayed there).
On the other hand, JMS wrote Peter and MJ as being somewhat older and more mature, or at the very least young people who have endured so much more than people at their age should have and that's kind of made them wiser than their years, which to me feels valid, and also it was just after 9/11 and speaking as someone who was young then, I know that 9/11 and the experience of that did make people feel older overnight. And I always felt that JMS was the only writer in Marvel who was dealing with the post-9/11 world. Like that scene in ASM #502-503 when Peter is dropping MJ off at the airport when she goes to LA. That scene shows Peter dropping her off at the airport entrance. That's basically a post-9/11 moment because overnight airports around the world decided to control airports by insisting only passengers can pass through the gates. It also alluded to the Conway/Andru scene in ASM#143 where MJ went inside the airport, which is now basically a Pre 9/11 moment.
So I feel the marriage provided more options and removing the marriage means that Marvel writers in a position to justify it have to keep insisting and showing Peter as someone who must not grow up. Peter not growing up now has to be an essential part of his character in a way it never was before. So that lends an air of frustration to post-OMD Spider-Man. It's no longer possible for 616 Peter to be a complex character. Certainly Slott's Peter is far and away the most simplistic version of that character. I mean take [I]No One Dies[/I]. This big story that goes into Peter's psyche and the main beat that Slott explores there is "bad guys seem to resurrect more than good people do", that is the childish logic of comic books deployed in service of a major character study with nothing meaningful to say about any real life experiences. And the big thing that Slott goes is "When I'm around, no one dies" which literally makes no sense and goes nowhere.
[QUOTE=Celgress;4468491]It closes one chapter but opens another heck it can open many different chapters in Peter's life: professor/teacher, inventor, full-time employee, company owner, adventurer/researcher, exact. The only limit is the imagination of the writer or writers.[/QUOTE]
What chapter is opened? Peter can be an inventor, professor, or researcher without a PHD.
[QUOTE=Jman27;4468514]This is where manga beats comics for me[/QUOTE]
Would you be happier if the Spider-Man comics ended decades ago?
[QUOTE=Mister Mets;4471579]What chapter is opened? Peter can be an inventor, professor, or researcher without a PHD.[/QUOTE]
Yup and he can be these things with a Ph.D. too, well except for a full professor in many localities. His constant inability to succeed at earning his doctorate is an old worn-out trope at this point which should be retired.
[QUOTE=Mister Mets;4471581]Would you be happier if the Spider-Man comics ended decades ago?[/QUOTE]
A story having a definite conclusion and ending does not by itself halt or prevent more stories from being told of that world, that society, and characters.
[QUOTE=Mister Mets;4471581]Would you be happier if the Spider-Man comics ended decades ago?[/QUOTE]
LOL, c'mon Mets this question is so a diversionary tactic which is frankly beneath you. No one wants Spider-Man comics to end rather many (dare I say most) people want to see our favorite hero in new situations. Give us one good reason why a thirtysomething Peter Parker would doom the series. And remember Miles can easily fill the young(er) spidey role. Let's see Peter finally grow up some not die or become a broken-down old man but rather a fully realized adult. The story possibilities are endless more than enough for another fifty years.
Edit - I'm not trying to be combative rather I just think with Miles able to fill the young struggling spidey slot it is the perfect opportunity for Peter's character to fill a new role.
[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4471222]If you have specifics, I might have something to say. I re-read JMS' run from time to time, as I do earlier stuff. It's not based on memories and so on.[/QUOTE]
That’s what I mean by nostalgia. Peter has always had help to get him where he is regardless of what he’s doing. There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s just how things are sometimes.
While his job teaching is his own merits, him keeping his job was a lot in part of his relationship with Ezekiel. When he lost his home, he could move in with Stark. When he’s dealing with the consequences of his past actions, a lot of it feels like going through the motions rather than him genuinely being invested in what’s going on. All things that are honestly normal for Peter.
[QUOTE=PCN24454;4472146]That’s what I mean by nostalgia. Peter has always had help to get him where he is regardless of what he’s doing. There’s nothing wrong with that. That’s just how things are sometimes.
While his job teaching is his own merits, him keeping his job was a lot in part of his relationship with Ezekiel. When he lost his home, he could move in with Stark. When he’s dealing with the consequences of his past actions, a lot of it feels like going through the motions rather than him genuinely being invested in what’s going on. All things that are honestly normal for Peter.[/QUOTE]
And what does this have to do with what we are discussing?