Anti-Heroes like the Punisher or Dexter being as bad as the scum they kill

[QUOTE=Shawn Hopkins;408034]Or super villains. The story where he attacks Stilt Man's funeral drove that home for me. Seeing him poison and blow up a bunch of guys whose most heinous crimes were bank robbery, bad fashion sense, and getting in the way of Spider-Man's fist just felt mean-spirited and cruel. They're characters from a gentler type of story.[/QUOTE]
I remember seeing Punisher taking a sniper rifle to some guys that bought the Stilt Man costume, before any of them had even got the costume on. He was eventually talked out of killing people who actually never committed any crimes, and were probably too stupid to hurt anyone but themselves. It was still a real dick move.

[QUOTE=DS1;370052]It's long been said by some people that characters who kill scum are no better than said scum. That they're hypocrites and all.

It's something I never really got. To me, the likes of the Punisher and Dexter Morgan are clearly better than the criminals they habitually kill. Like I'm going to believe that there's no difference between them and a sexual predator who preys on children then kill them. Like killing a rapist is exactly the same as killing an helpless innocent.[/QUOTE]

This line of thought has never made sense to me either. These people do not kill for no reason nor do they kill innocent people. They certainly aren't angels, but they aren't evil either.

[QUOTE]Still, people who can be proven to be scum without a shadow of a doubt, should be dealt with harshly.[/QUOTE]

This is how I feel, I am all for the death penalty for people who are truly guilty of murder. I feel these people are not even deserving of the very minimal comforts they receive if they are put in prison for the rest of their lives.

Two things, firstly it's not a debate but documented fact that our system can and does convict innocent people and sentence them to death. They always have, and always will so long as the death penalty is a reality. If we're lucky we find this out before they kill someone, but we're not always lucky. Secondly, even keeping in mind that these are fictional characters and their violence is just an extension of the casual superhero violence that itself would be outlawed if it actually existed, if you're killing people on your own with no authority to do so then you are evil in my book. Whether you choose to kill jaywalkers, drug dealers, or pedophiles if you're not appointed to do so by the rest of society (and again, even then you're probably on very shaky ground morally given the imperfect system used to convict) then you're no better than the people you're killing. Worse than some.

[QUOTE=CSTowle;410484]Two things, firstly it's not a debate but documented fact that our system can and does convict innocent people and sentence them to death. They always have, and always will so long as the death penalty is a reality. If we're lucky we find this out before they kill someone, but we're not always lucky. Secondly, even keeping in mind that these are fictional characters and their violence is just an extension of the casual superhero violence that itself would be outlawed if it actually existed, if you're killing people on your own with no authority to do so then you are evil in my book. Whether you choose to kill jaywalkers, drug dealers, or pedophiles if you're not appointed to do so by the rest of society (and again, even then you're probably on very shaky ground morally given the imperfect system used to convict) then you're no better than the people you're killing. Worse than some.[/QUOTE]

I have no doubt the Punisher is worse than most people he kills.

[QUOTE=Surtur;409656]This line of thought has never made sense to me either. These people do not kill for no reason nor do they kill innocent people. They certainly aren't angels, but they aren't evil either.



This is how I feel, I am all for the death penalty for people who are truly guilty of murder. I feel these people are not even deserving of the very minimal comforts they receive if they are put in prison for the rest of their lives.[/QUOTE]

See, this is why I hate Manicheanism. Dehumanizing people is never a good thing, no matter what they've done.

Pop question: What does the Punisher deserve?

[QUOTE=just another user;410548]I have no doubt the Punisher is worse than most people he kills.[/QUOTE]

It's not too hard to imagine a scenario where a guy is out of work, desperate, and he gets an off-the-books job unloading some cargo in a warehouse late at night. No questions asked, none answered, and he's not being asked to hurt anybody, just move some boxes and his family gets to eat this week. Except the cargo is a shipment of coke the Punisher's been tracking, and he shows up and puts two in the skull of everybody he sees. So now a family is without a husband and father, and an income, all because Frank Castle got his violence on.


And the worst thing is, the Kingpin has built the Punisher's activity into his business plan by now, and this counts as acceptable losses. He lost the drugs, but hey, now he doesn't have to pay all those guys, either.

[QUOTE=Michael P;410637]It's not too hard to imagine a scenario where a guy is out of work, desperate, and he gets an off-the-books job unloading some cargo in a warehouse late at night. No questions asked, none answered, and he's not being asked to hurt anybody, just move some boxes and his family gets to eat this week. Except the cargo is a shipment of coke the Punisher's been tracking, and he shows up and puts two in the skull of everybody he sees. So now a family is without a husband and father, and an income, all because Frank Castle got his violence on.


And the worst thing is, the Kingpin has built the Punisher's activity into his business plan by now, and this counts as acceptable losses. He lost the drugs, but hey, now he doesn't have to pay all those guys, either.[/QUOTE]

This is a very good and salient point. In the mind of the Punisher, he wouldn't give that person a second thought.
Ennis was careful to show the people Castle killed were just despicable people, but also made sure to show that this was a man that could start killing anyone, if the criminals were suddenly gone.

[QUOTE=Darrell D.;410686]This is a very good and salient point. In the mind of the Punisher, he wouldn't give that person a second thought.
Ennis was careful to show the people Castle killed were just despicable people, but also made sure to show that this was a man that could start killing anyone, if the criminals were suddenly gone.[/QUOTE]


"If my world ends, so does yours." Brrr.

Yeah, that was a very telling, chilling look at him.

[QUOTE=CSTowle;410484]Two things, firstly it's not a debate but documented fact that our system can and does convict innocent people and sentence them to death. They always have, and always will so long as the death penalty is a reality. If we're lucky we find this out before they kill someone, but we're not always lucky. Secondly, even keeping in mind that these are fictional characters and their violence is just an extension of the casual superhero violence that itself would be outlawed if it actually existed, if you're killing people on your own with no authority to do so then you are evil in my book. Whether you choose to kill jaywalkers, drug dealers, or pedophiles if you're not appointed to do so by the rest of society (and again, even then you're probably on very shaky ground morally given the imperfect system used to convict) then you're no better than the people you're killing. Worse than some.[/QUOTE]

I don't think anyone is disagreeing that innocent people getting convicted is a topic up for debate, there are countless cases for this happening. I do think you are evil if you kill someone for something petty, I knew Punisher was trigger happy, but I thought he only killed murderers and such. If that isn't the case then yeah, he's evil.

[QUOTE=Michael P;410630]See, this is why I hate Manicheanism. Dehumanizing people is never a good thing, no matter what they've done.[/QUOTE]

I disagree, there are certain lines in life you do not cross. One such line is murder. The person you killed won't ever get to enjoy any aspect of life again, so you shouldn't either.

[QUOTE]Pop question: What does the Punisher deserve?[/QUOTE]

I suppose it depends. If he truly does things like kill criminals who do not deserve such a harsh punishment then I'd say he deserves the death penalty.

Such a word, "deserve".

[QUOTE=Surtur;409656]
This is how I feel, I am all for the death penalty for people who are truly guilty of murder. I feel these people are not even deserving of the very minimal comforts they receive if they are put in prison for the rest of their lives.[/QUOTE]

thatpresumes we have a fair and honest justice system,we do not. What is the exceptable error rate? how many innocent people are expendable?

googlle" Project innocence

Look at the error rate for the death penalty. Now,imagine it's all in the hands of one Vietnam Vet with PTSD.

Of course the Punisher kills people other than murderers. He kills gang members, drug dealers, he's wiped out entire Mafia families down to their youngest sons. Some of those guys had killed, but not all.

[QUOTE=Surtur;409656]This line of thought has never made sense to me either. These people do not kill for no reason nor do they kill innocent people. They certainly aren't angels, but they aren't evil either.


.[/QUOTE] Has every single person either of them killed deserved the death penalty, If not they are simply murders with a slighting better, but still pathetic, excuse for murdering people

[QUOTE=Michael P;411631]Such a word, "deserve".[/QUOTE]

Yes, but even without the death penalty we still are judging people and giving them the punishments we feel they deserve. So in some places if you kill someone you deserve nothing short of a life sentence.

[QUOTE=Mikekerr3;411792]thatpresumes we have a fair and honest justice system,we do not. What is the exceptable error rate? how many innocent people are expendable?[/QUOTE]

I was merely talking about people we truly know are guilty of murder. I agree we'd need to make changes to the justice system before we could enact such a thing, but that is what I'd try to do. If you are truly guilty of murder you don't get to sit back and enjoy 3 meals a day. You don't get to sit around and enjoy the fresh air, even if that isn't something you can do often in prison. You don't get to even every now and then enjoy a movie or a book. All you get to do is everything your victim can now do, which is nothing.

[QUOTE=Surtur;424483]
I was merely talking about people we truly know are guilty of murder. I agree we'd need to make changes to the justice system before we could enact such a thing, but that is what I'd try to do. If you are truly guilty of murder you don't get to sit back and enjoy 3 meals a day. You don't get to sit around and enjoy the fresh air, even if that isn't something you can do often in prison. You don't get to even every now and then enjoy a movie or a book. All you get to do is everything your victim can now do, which is nothing.[/QUOTE] We don't have a system where we can know someone is truly guilty. It would require a system that is completely unbiased and fair, where the defense has the same resource as the prosecution, where someone other than intrinsically faulty "naked apes" made the determinations. We are stuck with a systemthat is far more faulty than the ideal justice system, we are not even close to a good one.