-
[QUOTE=CRaymond;4809199]Yep. People can’t talk about EifE without talking about Planet X. It’s tiring.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Wiccan;4809191]Seriously?
Why are you doing this phoenixzero?
We've had this thread many many times. We literally don't need it again. Is anything new gonna be said? And it's an obvious invitation for people to bring all their hate against the character and turn it into posts. You should know better.[/QUOTE]
It really wasn't my intention to do something problematic or bash Jean of all people.
I apologize if that happened, these days I have been distracted with some things on real life and have left that affect my behavior a little too much.
-
I don't have strong opinions on the subject, but I think the Phoenix story became Jean's only story, so I don't think that resurrecting her has proven successful in terms of giving her a purpose once she fulfilled the arc of that story. (Full disclosure, Jean is not a character I'm a huge fan of, even if I don't hate the character and most of the X-Men comics I've read were written during the time when she was dead and Emma Frost was a X-Man.)
[QUOTE=Grey;4808237]As a jean fan I’m always crucified for my opinion but yes, I think I would have liked her to stay dead after DPS.
[B]Teen jean was such a brilliant loophole because I got “a jean” back to read and enjoy, yet the mythical being that was “the great saint jean grey “ still existed with adult jean being dead.[/B][/QUOTE]
That's an interesting way of looking at it. Never got into the comics with those versions of the characters, but that does sound more interesting then original Jean coming back again.
-
The only good Jean is a dead Jean.
-
[QUOTE=Wiccan;4809191]Seriously?
Why are you doing this phoenixzero?
We've had this thread many many times. We literally don't need it again. Is anything new gonna be said? And it's an obvious invitation for people to bring all their hate against the character and turn it into posts. You should know better.[/QUOTE]
Have we talked about it post-HoX resurrections, though?
-
[QUOTE=phoenixzero23;4809211]It really wasn't my intention to do something problematic or bash Jean of all people.
I apologize if that happened, these days I have been distracted with some things on real life and have left that affect my behavior a little too much.[/QUOTE]
I know you meant well. But this subject has been talked - not pun intended - to death.
And this kind of topic is unfortunately a "hater magnet", in general.
-
100% Yes. Bringing her back especially the stupid-ass way it was done, was the first huge continuity error that began to undo Claremont's legendary vision of the XMen.
People think it's great now nobody dies but that's so stupid and wrong... the only reason characters came back was because of "iconic" merchandising $. Not art/story reasons. If you die, stay dead, at least USUALLY. How it ought to be
Jean Grey in particular serves mainly as an emotive "background force" or a potent symbol. As dead. So much better that way, as a living character she is too much of an overpowered Mary Sue/everywoman/bland. If you try making her not so bland or boring then why does Rachel or Maddy need to even exist lol...
-
Haters magnet, as I said...
-
[QUOTE=franckd;4811322]Haters magnet, as I said...[/QUOTE]
Shrug. I gave my view. It's not "hate" just I don't have unadulterated blind worship like some others. I loved the Jean arc all the way through to her first death. And there was a lot of great stuff done *with her dead* since. I even said this... she was an important force in the X-mythos *as a founding member who died due to having near absolute power*. It's a cautionary tale etc. Bringing her back undermines it, and you can never do anything nearly as creative with the character so she comes off as stale. Writers have tried to capitalize on her fame (tied in with her Phoenix Saga role...) by centering her and making her prominent but she became extremely extremely vanilla as a result... Cyclops went antihero/rebel but Jean never really did...
I like the comment someone else made about Young Jean being a decent "quasi substitute". But again we have other characters similar enough to Jean like her daughter Rachel for example... her clone Madelyne... and so on. Jean is much more compelling dead.
And no, other characters don't die nearly as much as some others in this thread keep claiming. Jean is for sure known as a "mostly dead character". That is pretty unique actually and ought to be maintained
-
"as a living character she is too much of an overpowered Mary Sue/everywoman/bland."
If it's not hate for the character, I know that it's not love either.
I don't worship Jean blindly. As I said a few times, I care about well written characters, and I prefer a good/great book without my favorites, than a mediocre book with my fave in.
Now that it's clear, I must object with one thing : because Jean had an epic, iconic, famous, creative story (Dark Phoenix Saga) she should stay dead because she will never have a greater story? Does that mean that every character who will finally get that story level, or reach a peak, should be written of or killed?
I'm glad that Jean came back from the dead. New X-Men by Morrison was amazing (imo) and would never have been the same without Jean. Her relation with Emma was gold (and I hope that giant X-Men will be a reminder of that). And I am glad that she's an important figure in X-Force.
-
Well, a character called Phoenix should be a special case regarding death… Maybe, for me, she's the only one who can come back again and again… and it doesn't bother me much. It bothers me much about other characters…
In a way, this cycle of deaths and ressurections was the main trait of her character… (a moot point now because it can be done casually). Jean has necessarily a conservative point of view about X-men, she is inevitably a bit stuck in the past and out of step with her colleagues.
-
[QUOTE=Zelena;4811356]Well, a character called Phoenix should be a special case regarding death… Maybe, for me, she's the only one who can come back again and again… and it doesn't bother me much. It bothers me much about other characters…
In a way, this cycle of deaths and ressurections was the main trait of her character… (a moot point now because it can be done casually). Jean has necessarily a conservative point of view about X-men, she is inevitably a bit stuck in the past and out of step with her colleagues.[/QUOTE]
As you said, Jean, by the nature of her powers and history, should have been the one who could logically come back from the dead, without turning into a joke... And yet, for many years, the joke was on her. How unfair and biased : before the resurrection protocoles with the 5 on Krakoa, almost all major X-men died and came back from the death. None of them were Phoenix, and yet, they kept coming back, making death a total joke... [I]" X (name any character here) is dead? Yeah, it will last"[/I]... That's something Hickman got right. He used one of the weakest plot devices in comic history, and turned it into an advantage.
-
-
[QUOTE=Park Slope Pixie;4811595]Maddie Pryor > Jean Grey[/QUOTE]
Just because she punched Scott?
[QUOTE=Zelena;4811356]Well, a character called Phoenix should be a special case regarding death… Maybe, for me, she's the only one who can come back again and again… and it doesn't bother me much. It bothers me much about other characters…
In a way, this cycle of deaths and ressurections was the main trait of her character… (a moot point now because it can be done casually). Jean has necessarily a conservative point of view about X-men, she is inevitably a bit stuck in the past and out of step with her colleagues.[/QUOTE]
She was too much time dead. Bt If Barry got 23 years and he is back and fitiing. I don't see why Jean can't do it too
-
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;4808252] What I DON'T like is the way they brought her back. The whole "it was never really Jean at all because we must preserve her sainted purity at all costs" horribly undermines the original story, and it goes in tandem with the horribly flawed premise of X-Factor and the character assassination of Cyclops, and all the characters sort of keep paying for it to this day. It was a perfect storm of crappy ideas all hitting at once, and Jean's presence didn't really result in any good stories right away. Not like the fallout from her death .[/QUOTE]
Yes! I voted 'stay dead,' but it's not *idea* of Jean coming back, since, IMO, her story wasn't really fully explored, so much as she was 'written into a corner' by being kind of overpowered and cosmic for the title she was in, and had to get moved off (ditto Binary, later, who got super powered up, and then, bam, gone).
And then her return was all sorts of ugly. "Hey Jean, welcome back. There was a space creature that pretended to be you for a while, and super-heroically sacrificed it's life for love, and it was literally the coolest thing you ever did, and, oh wait, that wasn't you, so, uh, hi? I guess?" I guess I wouldn't mind her coming back, but in such a way that it didn't A) negate her amazing death on the moon and B) make Scott dump his wife and kid and run back to a woman who, since he was dating her space-doppleganger, [i]doesn't even know the way he thinks he does[/i]... (Which is just extra creepy. What would you think to find some dude you dated briefly years ago ranting about his amazing forever-love with some girl who looked like you, but died, and how it makes you soul-mates? Yikes.)
If Jean had come back, only to find the X-Men had moved on, Emma was now a co-headmaster of Generation X, Scott was married with child to someone who wasn't a creepy clone of her, (or was, whatever), and decided it was all too weird and ended up hanging her hat with the Avengers or Fantastic Four for a bit, that might have been much more interesting, IMO.
Polaris as the 'chick' in X-Factor would have also been an interesting switcharoo (granted, I thought X-Factor was a pretty bad idea anyway, gotta love a book whose premise of 'let's pretend to be mutant-hunters!' turns out to be so awful that it's later claimed to be a supervillain's idea the mutant heroes got tricked into!).
-
One thing I like about Jean’s death and rebirth cycle is how it can be used as “chapters” of the X-Men franchise story. DPS ended chapter 1. Morrison ended chapter 3. We’re currently in chapter five.
Like Sutekh mentions, MUCH of Claremont’s post-DPS teasings of the Jean memory was gross and unfortunate. Madelyne was a huge misstep, and dealt with sloppily. I don’t think there’s room for her, honestly.
