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[QUOTE=Nite-Wing;4461947]I'm curious what Babs was bringing to the series as batgirl? As Oracle I get it that's an interesting take and revitalizing a stale character being done better elsewhere(Batwoman, Cass, etc)[/QUOTE]Barbara and Dinah are the Core of the BoP, having the team without her is kind of odd.
I'm anyway wondering what Harleys role will be. I mean she is clearly the most popular character on that team, but with her as the main Protagonist the book would have imo to go for quite a different direction then the previous versions (Ok the new 52 incarnations also didn't really follow the original format).
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[QUOTE=Aahz;4462705]Barbara and Dinah are the Core of the BoP, having the team without her is kind of odd.
I'm anyway wondering what Harleys role will be. I mean she is clearly the most popular character on that team, but with her as the main Protagonist the book would have imo to go for quite a different direction then the previous versions (Ok the new 52 incarnations also didn't really follow the original format).[/QUOTE]
well dinah and huntress seem more like the foundations of the group now in comics and other media
Babs is no longer guaranteed to be a part of every instance of them showing up somewhere because she's not oracle anymore
The core concept of the group has changed entirely
Its why you can have catwoman, harley, or Poison Ivy replace Babs and still get to call the title BOP
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Does this mean that Batgirl is part of Leviathan
?
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As far as Azzarello writing a group of female characters is concerned, he's better suited to these women than the Amazons...but that's hardly saying much. I'm not too enthusiastic. I love Harley and always will, but she's over exposed as it is and Azz himself has never impressed me with her. We're in for a deluge of his punny dialogue coming out of her mouth.
Him declaring her the most stable of the group is incredibly ominous. I can see the thought process behind Helena, much less so Renee and especially Dinah, who is one of the more level headed of the superhero community. Ugh, what's he going to do with her.
It's probably for the best Babs is absent considering TKJ. And for better or worse, this will still probably be the most noteworthy run of the title since Simone.
[QUOTE=Nite-Wing;4462786]well dinah and huntress seem more like the foundations of the group now in comics and other media
Babs is no longer guaranteed to be a part of every instance of them showing up somewhere because she's not oracle anymore
The core concept of the group has changed entirely
Its why you can have catwoman, harley, or Poison Ivy replace Babs and still get to call the title BOP[/QUOTE]
That last part's debatable. Babs never stays gone for long, even when she's Batgirl. The rest can be part of the team and still call it the BOP, but only in addition to Babs and Dinah and to a lesser extent Helena, not without them.
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[QUOTE=Caivu;4461567]All the writers they could've had for this, and they get Azzarello. :mad:[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I don't really get how you try to relaunch a book with a predominantly female cast, about female empowerment, and then you put Azzarello on it.
That's probably the biggest knock against this run aside from Harley.
[QUOTE=Korath;4461738]I'm actually happy that they switched Barbara for Harley.
I don't find Babs to be very interesting or a strong character even. Harley at least has potential for this kind of story, because her insanity can be displayed in various ways.[/QUOTE]
If the [I]Killing Joke[/I] movie proved anything, Azzarello doesn't have a good feel for Barbara Gordon at all anyways, so it's probably for the best.
[QUOTE=Nite-Wing;4461947]
At least now the series has a top talent like azzarello and we can officially stop all the boring adventures of Babs using canary and huntress as meat shields.[/QUOTE]
That's a very negative view of the Birds' team dynamic. If Babs could she would have been in front of any bullets or attack that came at Dinah and Helena.
[QUOTE]Seems like now canary gets to officially take back leadership and if for some insane reason harley is leading the group that's even funner[/QUOTE]
Would not surprise me to have Harley as the leader. But I'd find that more depressing then funny.
[QUOTE=millernumber1;4462248]It's interesting - I actually don't have a problem with Harley on the team - I am curious if Babs is actually off, since she was "off" in the n52, but she came back pretty quickly, even if she was never a 'core' member during that run. Harley and Babs's relationship in Heroes in Crisis was quite interesting to me, so I could see that having some effect.
[/QUOTE]
I kind of don't want to see any more of Batgirl and Harley as gal pals either, to be honest.
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Weird choice, but better than the alternative: desperately trying to recapture the Simone-era to forgettable results.
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[QUOTE=Kurisu;4463279]Weird choice, but better than the alternative: desperately trying to recapture the Simone-era to forgettable results.[/QUOTE]
I think this was part of the issue with the Bensons, on-top of their work just not being as strong as Simone's, although I think it was called for at the time it came out.
I'm not expecting a better alternative to come out of this run.
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[QUOTE=Nite-Wing;4462786]Babs is no longer guaranteed to be a part of every instance of them showing up somewhere because she's not oracle anymore[/QUOTE]She was at least sofar the only characer that was allways part of the book. Huntress Only joined roughly 50 issues after the start of the series, and Dinah was also of the team at some point during Simones run.
But the big Problem is imo that original concept for the Birds doesn't really work without an Oracle Type charcter that comes up with missions for them. Without that they are limited to street level crime fighting.
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[QUOTE=Aahz;4463742]But the big Problem is imo that original concept for the Birds doesn't really work without an Oracle Type charcter that comes up with missions for them. Without that they are limited to street level crime fighting.[/QUOTE]
Even more, to me it doesn’t work with out Babs life experience. This was part of my problem with the other incarnations. The team has gone from helping down on their luck and overlooked superheroines, something that would be rather contemporary for today’s climate and was even just a motivation for Babs as Batgirl to help out Harely in HiC, and has turned into just a generic super team with hot chicks. Making BoP DC’s new hottest blond in shorts shorts team just doesn’t work for me. Movie or comics, it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Under different circumstances though I think Harley could actually make for an interesting addition to BoP.
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They need to stop with this push.
We got tired of it with Wolverine.
We got tired of it with Deadpool.
We are tired of it with Harley.
What's worse is she's not half as interesting a character as the other 2.
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I'm a big fan Harley she is one of my favourite DC characters but I'm dubious about this, I'd much rather have a Sirens book than Harley playing comic relief to these two.
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[QUOTE=lucius121;4463976]I'm a big fan Harley she is one of my favourite DC characters but I'm dubious about this, I'd much rather have a Sirens book than Harley playing comic relief to these two.[/QUOTE]
Sirens is kind of not available, given Catwoman in Batman and the Harley and Ivy book.
But Given how everyone but Dini kind of screwed up the Sirens concept, I don't really want a Sirens book anymore than...well, an Azzarello BoP book. :(
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[QUOTE=Tzigone;4461541]Harley does not belong with the Birds. She is not a hero. They should not want to work with her. And there's not even any Barbara.[/QUOTE]
Agreed! I love the character of Harley (at least old school "Dini/Timm" Harley) but she is NOT a hero. She may not be as bats**t crazy as the Joker, but there's no way in hell she should be accepted as a hero. I wonder how many deaths she's been responsible for over the years (either directly by her hand or while helping the Joker)?? Pretty sure her only way of being a "hero" is by being forced to work on the Suicide Squad (and in that scenario the term "hero" is used very loosely).
I hate how they force popular villains into "hero" roles. Venom was an awesome villain when introduced but he was a truly vile creature. But because he was popular they had to make him an "anti hero".
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[QUOTE=RickWJ324;4464175]Agreed! I love the character of Harley (at least old school "Dini/Timm" Harley) but she is NOT a hero. She may not be as bats**t crazy as the Joker, but there's no way in hell she should be accepted as a hero. I wonder how many deaths she's been responsible for over the years (either directly by her hand or while helping the Joker)?? Pretty sure her only way of being a "hero" is by being forced to work on the Suicide Squad (and in that scenario the term "hero" is used very loosely).
I hate how they force popular villains into "hero" roles. Venom was an awesome villain when introduced but he was a truly vile creature. But because he was popular they had to make him an "anti hero".[/QUOTE]
I'm a fan of both original Harley and post Joker Harley, and I think while Harley should not be a straight up villain anymore seeing her on hero teams doesn't fit either, for Harley and Ivy I think their own needs and agendas come first and helping people second. It's the balance that you used to get in her solo.
If you're in trouble you should not want to call for Harley but you all shouldn't run when you see her. There are many reasons for a character introduced as a villain to change and I think character evolution is a good thing, keeping everything static stifles creativity. What we really need are some heroes to permanently turn villainous to balance it out. If only nostalgia wasn't the driving force behind the industry.
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[QUOTE=lucius121;4464236]I'm a fan of both original Harley and post Joker Harley, and I think while Harley should not be a straight up villain anymore seeing her on hero teams doesn't fit either, for Harley and Ivy I think their own needs and agendas come first and helping people second. It's the balance that you used to get in her solo.
If you're in trouble you should not want to call for Harley but you all shouldn't run when you see her. There are many reasons for a character introduced as a villain to change and I think character evolution is a good thing, keeping everything static stifles creativity. What we really need are some heroes to permanently turn villainous to balance it out. If only nostalgia wasn't the driving force behind the industry.[/QUOTE]
Good points! And yes, I have no problem with Harley turning around her life and wanting to do good things. I just don't see her ever being accepted on a "hero team", not to mention she would/should always be in jail for her crimes against humanity. There are real life prisoners who have done far less than Harley has done that are in life sentences. I don't have any exact references in front of me, but I'd be fairly certain that Harley (while aiding the Joker) has done many heinous acts that would require her to be tucked away safe from society for a very long time.
I do love the character, and find her quite fun (both in her Dini/Timm characterization as well as her current role in the DCU). I just don't want to see her on a hero team, no more than I'd wish to see CARNAGE join the Avengers.
