-
[QUOTE=capandkirby;4195412]The shield is a symbol of what Captain America stands for: the American Dream. The ideals. Not the reality. Steve has said this over and over, in every single Cap run since Englehart. He also was pretty clear about it in last month’s issue. He said, point-blank, that they had come after anyone who had been Cap, name-dropped specific incidents, i.e. Bucky going to trial, as a means to hijack the symbol. A ‘person’ is easy to ruin, re: make Bucky stand trial as the Winter Soldier, publish editorials criticizing Sam’s tenure, frame Steve for murder. But the symbol of the shield, what it stands for: liberty, equal opportunity, freedom, lives on beyond Steve, Bucky or Sam. Steve deliberately does not turn the shield in, even though Nick Jr. specifically asks for it, because Steve knew, and he said this, in dialogue, the hope that the symbol represents must live on.
I’m on my phone and not a desktop, but I will post panels if you need a refresher.
Also, if Steve viewed the mantle as a curse he wouldn’t have requested it to live on beyond his existence in this mortal plane. That’s not to say it’s easy, it’s definitely difficult, Steve is aware of that much. But he did not deliberately set Sam up to fail.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think you can imbue a metal object with what you say it is. Steve Rogers is imbued with the symbol of freedom, not a shield.
-
[QUOTE=capandkirby;4195441]Here you be. He said, point-blank, it’s not the person, it’s what Captain America represents (as Sharon looks down at the shield Steve gave her before he turned himself in). This is not the actions of a man trying to hide what the government is claiming to be a murder weapon, it’s the actions of a man who does not want ‘them’ to win in hijaking the symbol.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]78471[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
I couldn’t open that attachment. What does it say?
-
[QUOTE=Snoop Dogg;4195482]Being black was only one reason Sam was hated. More like frosting on the cake. The candles are that he wasn't a veteran. The sprinkles were that he was new.
But the cake was that he got involved, unlike all his predecessors and antithetical to Steve's "stay out of current affairs and act as America's overseer and dad" approach.
Sam was a social worker who ran for office who tried to use his position to really make a difference and tackle problems he knew were there. It's like a controversy stew. But that's what makes him a great everyman lead. Probably why Nick likes him so much, too.[/QUOTE]
Sam Wilson is a great big challenge to fit into Captain America. Sure, he’s African American, but I really liked that 2099 Captain Ametica, female, who was Latin American. Mendez, I think. It can be done without all the poison. But like you say, Sam did use his position to become a social worker and that rubbed people the wrong way. But how do you be Captain America? Just stand posing on a corner and do nothing? Of cause Cap is a social worker. That shouldn’t make Sam a focus of a “He’s not my Cap” campaign. Sams social work should have inspired people that something is being done to help people.
-
[QUOTE=jackolover;4195295]I don’t know that Sam being Cap would have helped his popularity, as long as it didn’t make it worse, but being Cap did reduce his popularity to the citizens of the MU.[/QUOTE]
There's no way to verify that, obviously. We can't poll the fictional residents of the MU for their opinions. But while Sam's tenure as Cap was controversial within the MU, the last panel of SE shows a kid playing with a Sam Wilson Cap figure so we're meant to know that Sam's time as Cap left an impact. For all his struggles, his time in that role was notable.
[QUOTE=jackolover;4195295]I would have liked it if Sam was let alone so he could be Cap and not be hounded.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure Sam would have liked that, too. But it's not realistic. Again, that's part of the point - that because of the color of his skin he was automatically a target for hate.
[QUOTE=jackolover;4195762]Sam Wilson is a great big challenge to fit into Captain America. Sure, he’s African American, but I really liked that 2099 Captain Ametica, female, who was Latin American. Mendez, I think. It can be done without all the poison.[/QUOTE]
Easy to do that with a character living in the future where you can say that society has evolved and bigotry is in the past.
[QUOTE=jackolover;4195762]But like you say, Sam did use his position to become a social worker and that rubbed people the wrong way. But how do you be Captain America? Just stand posing on a corner and do nothing? Of cause Cap is a social worker. That shouldn’t make Sam a focus of a “He’s not my Cap” campaign. Sams social work should have inspired people that something is being done to help people.[/QUOTE]
Many minorities devote their lives to helping others but are still vilified because of their race.
Look at the deep, unending vitriol some people feel towards President Obama, a leader who suffered no scandals and who was fair and compassionate throughout his Presidency.
An inspiring man by any measure. But because of the color of his skin, he was - and still is - demonized by many.
-
1 Attachment(s)
[QUOTE=jackolover;4195751]I don’t think you can imbue a metal object with what you say it is. Steve Rogers is imbued with the symbol of freedom, not a shield.[/QUOTE]
Steve disagrees...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]78482[/ATTACH]
-
2 Attachment(s)
[QUOTE=jackolover;4195757]I couldn’t open that attachment. What does it say?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, don't know what happened there. What I get for trying to do attachments from my phone, I guess. Now that I'm on a desktop what I posted was this...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]78483[/ATTACH]
You see how he's saying that what he represented was the important thing? That the dream, not the dreamer, was the important thing? The shield is the symbol of that dream, the man is not the symbol.
Think back to Sam's speech in Secret Empire. And real!Steve agreed with Sam when he got back from the Vanishing Point. Blindly following one individual was lazy and stupid: of America as a whole, of the superhero community, etc. This is why Steve said this...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]78484[/ATTACH]
No one individual should have that kind of power. Hydra!Steve shouldn't have had that kind of power. For Steve, our Steve, it has always been the ideals of Captain America being larger than himself, which is the exact opposite way of thinking from Stevil. Coates has even said, in almost every interview he's given on the topic, that the reason he's so drawn to writing Steve was that he wanted to deconstruct the dream. What it might have meant to Steve in the 40's and what it's going to evolve to mean to Steve now.
-
[QUOTE=capandkirby;4195851]Yeah, don't know what happened there. What I get for trying to do attachments from my phone, I guess. Now that I'm on a desktop what I posted was this...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]78483[/ATTACH]
You see how he's saying that what he represented was the important thing? That the dream, not the dreamer, was the important thing? The shield is the symbol of that dream, the man is not the symbol.
Think back to Sam's speech in Secret Empire. And real!Steve agreed with Sam when he got back from the Vanishing Point. Blindly following one individual was lazy and stupid: of America as a whole, of the superhero community, etc. This is why Steve said this...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]78484[/ATTACH]
No one individual should have that kind of power. Hydra!Steve shouldn't have had that kind of power. For Steve, our Steve, it has always been the ideals of Captain America being larger than himself, which is the exact opposite way of thinking from Stevil. Coates has even said, in almost every interview he's given on the topic, that the reason he's so drawn to writing Steve was that he wanted to deconstruct the dream. What it might have meant to Steve in the 40's and what it's going to evolve to mean to Steve now.[/QUOTE]
'Blindly following one person' would have been a far better point to make in the mini, had people actually done that.
The second Cap revealed himself to be with Hydra, his fellow Avengers stopped listening. Deadpool was the only one who followed Cap willingly, after that.
-
2 Attachment(s)
[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;4196579]'Blindly following one person' would have been a far better point to make in the mini, had people actually done that.
The second Cap revealed himself to be with Hydra, his fellow Avengers stopped listening. Deadpool was the only one who followed Cap willingly, after that.[/QUOTE]
I was referring to the American public, mostly. But the argument in regards to the superhero community stems from the fact that Stevil played them behind the scenes, before he was revealed as Hydra, and was largely responsible for Civil War 2 going as far as it did. Because people listened to Stevil instead of following their own gut.
But the main point of Steve's dismay stems from the fact that America was somewhat okay with Stevil taking over. Not only is America's complacence being addressed in Cap, but it was brought up in last month's Black Widow comic, too...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]78496[/ATTACH]
Currently, in the MU, Kingpin was elected mayor and former Nazi's are running prisons. AND there's this panel, again from last month's Cap #7...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]78495[/ATTACH]
So yeah. What's that T.S Eliot quote about "this is how the world ends, not with a bang but a whimper". That's pretty much Steve's thought process at the moment. His biggest conflict, other been being framed for a murder he didn't commit, is reconciling the ideals of Captain America with American complacency. The 'shield' is dying not just because his enemies want to hijack it, but also through general inactivity of the American public. Thus Sharon and her Daughters of Liberty. Who wont be lazy or complacent. And who can save the dream (and Steve, preferably both).
Which, actually, is an ingenious place for Coates to place Steve in, and not just because of current politics. But because Simon and Kirby created Steve before America joined the war and denounced Hitler. They actually received hate from Nazi sympathizers in New York for the first cover of Cap, which featured Steve punching Hitler. They actually came to Timely offices once to threaten Kirby and Simon. Kirby, small as he was, almost got into fisticuffs with them. So, in essence, Cap was created during another time when America was being complacent. He's come full circle.
-
[QUOTE=Frontier;4191548]He's also one of the only main character of [I]Avengers Assemble[/I] who was cut out of [I]Avengers: Black Panther's Quest [/I](then again, so was Hulk), but I don't see that many fans for cartoon Falcon :p.[/QUOTE]They actually cut half the team - Avengers Secret Wars had FOURTEEN Avengers. The team was Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Thor, Falcon, Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, Ant-Man, Wasp, Vision, Black Panther and Jane Foster (renamed Thunderstrike for the cartoon). BPQ reduced it to just Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, and Black Widow.
-
[QUOTE=Digifiend;4196878]They actually cut half the team - Avengers Secret Wars had FOURTEEN Avengers. The team was Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Thor, Falcon, Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, Ant-Man, Wasp, Vision, Black Panther and Jane Foster (renamed Thunderstrike for the cartoon). BPQ reduced it to just Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, and Black Widow.[/QUOTE]
Then added Hawkeye and Ant-Man in later episodes.
That said, loving capandkirby's posts. Very solidly insightful and profound points about who Steve Rogers is and who and what he really stands for.
-
[QUOTE=Digifiend;4196878]They actually cut half the team - Avengers Secret Wars had FOURTEEN Avengers. The team was Iron Man, Captain America, Hulk, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Thor, Falcon, Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, Ant-Man, Wasp, Vision, Black Panther and Jane Foster (renamed Thunderstrike for the cartoon). BPQ reduced it to just Iron Man, Captain America, Thor, Black Panther, Captain Marvel, Ms Marvel, and Black Widow.[/QUOTE]
Reminds me of one of my issues with that season - There were too many characters to adequately give decent and consistent focus to, let alone develop a team dynamic.
It basically became more of an Avengers team-up cartoon then an actual Avengers show.
-
[QUOTE=capandkirby;4195841]Steve disagrees...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]78482[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
I don’t recognise that image, or the context of the dialogue.
-
[QUOTE=capandkirby;4195851]Yeah, don't know what happened there. What I get for trying to do attachments from my phone, I guess. Now that I'm on a desktop what I posted was this...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]78483[/ATTACH]
You see how he's saying that what he represented was the important thing? That the dream, not the dreamer, was the important thing? The shield is the symbol of that dream, the man is not the symbol.
Think back to Sam's speech in Secret Empire. And real!Steve agreed with Sam when he got back from the Vanishing Point. Blindly following one individual was lazy and stupid: of America as a whole, of the superhero community, etc. This is why Steve said this...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]78484[/ATTACH]
No one individual should have that kind of power. Hydra!Steve shouldn't have had that kind of power. For Steve, our Steve, it has always been the ideals of Captain America being larger than himself, which is the exact opposite way of thinking from Stevil. Coates has even said, in almost every interview he's given on the topic, that the reason he's so drawn to writing Steve was that he wanted to deconstruct the dream. What it might have meant to Steve in the 40's and what it's going to evolve to mean to Steve now.[/QUOTE]
Okay, thanks for reposting the image.
That second image, I can interpret that as the real Steve being despondent that the public accepted Hydra Steve. That’s all.
The narrators comments in the first image is just stating that Freedom has always existed and the drive to achieve it was always there long before Steve. That’s all. A shield isnt going to inspire people. Leadership and showing a good example will.
I’m currently toying with a concept of, what if Steve Rogers never became Captain America? Would America have won WWII in the Marvel Universe? My answer would be, no they would not. The uniform of the Stars and Stripes, as well as the shield that Steve Rogers wears, is a vehicle. It’s the emblems of the USA, so it’s designed to be patriotic, and help to cement a stern mindset about their country. But it’s what Steve Rogers does that gets the country moving. I don’t know why that’s so hard to understand.
And I will be interested in what Coates does when “Coates has even said, in almost every interview he's given on the topic, that the reason he's so drawn to writing Steve was that he wanted to deconstruct the dream. What it might have meant to Steve in the 40's and what it's going to evolve to mean to Steve now”. Steve’s relevance to the now is very important evolution to the character, so I wait to see what Coates does to Cap. Deconstructing the dream? That’s sounds disturbing, but I may be just looking at that negatively.
-
Leaving aside the whole Coates run take on cap, I just wanna say something on-topic
As much as I liked Secret Empire as a whole, Spencer really dropped the ball at 2 things
1- Him literally spoiling the ending 1 day before the final issue release
2- Killing Avrill right after the Planetary Shield went down. Yeah, it was a heroic death, that turned the tide on the heroes favor, but man.. I really liked her, and I believe she had tons of potential, and shouldnt have got ridden off like that :(
-
[QUOTE=TheMaker1610;4199627]Leaving aside the whole Coates run take on cap, I just wanna say something on-topic
As much as I liked Secret Empire as a whole, Spencer really dropped the ball at 2 things
1- Him literally spoiling the ending 1 day before the final issue release
2- Killing Avrill right after the Planetary Shield went down. Yeah, it was a heroic death, that turned the tide on the heroes favor, but man.. I really liked her, and I believe she had tons of potential, and shouldnt have got ridden off like that :([/QUOTE]
1. He didn't do that. Axel Alonso did that. And I will never fucking forget that. And I will also never forgive that. Ever.
[url]https://twitter.com/axelalonsomarv/status/902211403909656576[/url]
2. He left the door wide open for someone else to bring her back ("See you soon"). But since no one seems to care, I guess I'll have to wait until Nick goes to space, too... (Which I want him to do for that and his glorious, glorious Star-Lord)