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[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4660854]Yeah, never been a fan of the whole "Batman is an urban legend" thing over a long period of time. When he first pops up? Sure. But you can only hide a 6'2 200lbs guy in a big batsuit with a cape for so long. Especially once a kid in red, yellow, and green starts swinging around the city with him.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, a Batman with Robin makes even less sense at not being a distinct, public, figure.
I think I remember PAD balking at the lengths he had to go to with Robin in [I]Young Justice[/I] to work around the "urban legend" status they were still pushing after Zero Hour.
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OP Question -
Dark and grim is the way to go, IMO.
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if these are the only 2 extremes then i'd rather grimdark, the campy goofiness of Adam West's iteration was fine for its time but it's not a character i can take seriously in any other context; i can't even take it all that serious in its own context tbh. I'd rather an overly dark Batman with pathos than a cartoonish caricature aimed toward the lowest common denominator for kids. That being said, I gotta go with the more honest and cliched answer: the Batman animated series/JL/JLU interpretation of Batman is the ideal version/iteration of the character. he was dark and gritty but he had levity (especially in the JL/JLU series) and was consistently written competently and with the right amount of nuanced emotion.
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Just finished Robinson's TEC run (#988- 993) and it has this great old school take on Batman. Annual #3 Father's Day by Tom Tailor was the best Batman read in a long time for me.
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My whole history with Batman--and as a result all the DC super-heroes--begins with the BATMAN TV show starring Adam West. And when I was a little kid, I didn't know it was being funny--I took it seriously. The comics in the 1960s did try to use some elements from the TV show, but on the whole I feel they were much more grounded and serious-minded. There were only a few stories that really tried to be overly "Camp." I liked the writing of Gardner Fox, John Broome and Bob Kanigher. Carmine Infantino was and is my favourite comic book artist. And the 80 Page Giants reprinted great classic stories with the squared-jawed Batman. To me that's the best Batman.
And I liked the early 1970s stories with the detective-based content. But those stories are about as serious as I think Batman should go. Instead editors in subsequent decades have tried to take Batman into even darker and weirder places.
I think Batman stories should be aiming for that sweet spot that Will Eisner's THE SPIRIT achieved. It seems pretty clear to me that there was a lot of cross-influence between these two comic book series in the 1940s--and later Batman writers and artists were channelling Eisner in their work. Those Spirit Sections could be everything from broad humour to film noir crime thriller. The problem with Batman/Bruce Wayne is he became too self-serious and lost that tongue-in-cheek attitude that Denny Colt always had. Although in BTAS some of that dry humour comes through. Bruce should be the kind of guy who can laugh at himself and the people in his world. He shouldn't be such a buzz kill.
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[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;4665974]My whole history with Batman--and as a result all the DC super-heroes--begins with the BATMAN TV show starring Adam West. And when I was a little kid, I didn't know it was being funny--I took it seriously. The comics in the 1960s did try to use some elements from the TV show, but on the whole I feel they were much more grounded and serious-minded. There were only a few stories that really tried to be overly "Camp." I liked the writing of Gardner Fox, John Broome and Bob Kanigher. Carmine Infantino was and is my favourite comic book artist. And the 80 Page Giants reprinted great classic stories with the squared-jawed Batman. To me that's the best Batman.
And I liked the early 1970s stories with the detective-based content. But those stories are about as serious as I think Batman should go. Instead editors in subsequent decades have tried to take Batman into even darker and weirder places.
I think Batman stories should be aiming for that sweet spot that Will Eisner's THE SPIRIT achieved. It seems pretty clear to me that there was a lot of cross-influence between these two comic book series in the 1940s--and later Batman writers and artists were channelling Eisner in their work. Those Spirit Sections could be everything from broad humour to film noir crime thriller. The problem with Batman/Bruce Wayne is he became too self-serious and lost that tongue-in-cheek attitude that Denny Colt always had. Although in BTAS some of that dry humour comes through. Bruce should be the kind of guy who can laugh at himself and the people in his world. He shouldn't be such a buzz kill.[/QUOTE]
Agree. Bruce feels like an actual human being in the early BTAS, which is why I will forever love that version and think of him as the real deal.
Bruce canonically loves stuff like Zorro and Sherlock Holmes, and styles himself off of those types of characters. He has (or, sadly, [B]had[/B]) a swashbuckling personality and a sense of dry humor, which he openly shared with anybody who wasn't part of the criminal element. Even with them, he could be more mischievous in taking them down and scaring them instead of going all brutal Jack Baur on them. It's no wonder the women of the 1970s swooned over his mystique and that hairy chest. He definitely should be more brooding, mysterious and serious than Dick...but honestly, not by a significant amount. In fact, once the two of them get over the initial difficulty of Dick growing up and becoming his own man, they should act like best buds having a blast together whenever they team up like they did in the Robin days. If not, it just makes them seem immature and I don't like reading about immature characters without a point for too long a period of time
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If you ask me, the bible of Batman is BTAS.
That said, i do enjoy the various iterations of Batman. From crazy grimdark to Adam West. This is why i loved Morrison's run who covered, appreciated and paid tribute to the entire spectrum. However, going overly grimdark and psycho draws all the kids and edgelords who think they're reading serious graphic novels for the elite. This is why it's so popular. Sometimes a saturday morning cartoon about the Justice League turning into kids has more characterisation, character development and a better plot than a blockbuster movie. I'd take JL Unlimited than Zack Snyder's crap any day of the week.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]89017[/ATTACH]
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[QUOTE=Dr. Hurt;4667032]If you ask me, the bible of Batman is BTAS.
That said, i do enjoy the various iterations of Batman. From crazy grimdark to Adam West. This is why i loved Morrison's run who covered, appreciated and paid tribute to the entire spectrum. However, going overly grimdark and psycho draws all the kids and edgelords who think they're reading serious graphic novels for the elite. This is why it's so popular. Sometimes a saturday morning cartoon about the Justice League turning into kids has more characterisation, character development and a better plot than a blockbuster movie. I'd take JL Unlimited than Zack Snyder's crap any day of the week.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]89017[/ATTACH][/QUOTE]
That episode made me want a Justice League Kids series SO BADLY. JL8 is good, but I would love to see it in animated form.
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I like the middle road. Maybe it was because I was growing up in the 90's but I really liked the feel of them then. Course, sometimes I am in the mood for 80's Batman too (I am so mad that Jason Todd died and screw you Vicki Vale). Sometimes, late at night, I go all golden age (it's all about Bill Finger, forget you Bob Kane).
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[QUOTE=Steven Caldwell;4670561]I like the middle road. Maybe it was because I was growing up in the 90's but I really liked the feel of them then. Course, sometimes I am in the mood for 80's Batman too (I am so mad that Jason Todd died and screw you Vicki Vale). Sometimes, late at night, I go all golden age (it's all about Bill Finger, forget you Bob Kane).[/QUOTE]
What's the "screw you Vicki Vale" for - I haven't read much '80s Batman, and can't remember anything Vicki, but she was usually just a fairly intelligent journalist who (in some eras) rightly suspected Batman was Bruce Wayne in the eras I did read her in. I assume she did something horrible in this era?
I generally like 1970s Batman. Have avoided a lot of earlier 1980s because I didn't want to get attached to pre-COIE Jason. Early post-COIE can be a real jerk. Some better stuff in early 90s. Late 90s to early 2000s is when he crosses the line into "don't want to read anything where he ever appears" territory.
I do remember generally liking him BTAS, though it's been ages since I watched. [B]Not[/b] a fan of Batman in The New Batman Adventures or even Justice League.
I'm an oddity in preferring the emotional health, and in preferring Dick to be the first member of immediate family after his parents died, keeping Alfred as a later addition. While I have enjoyed some aspects of Alfred as parent, it's one of those things I like less and less the more exposed to it I am and especially the more I actually think about it and what it means in terms of Bruce's personality as that personality has shifted/been retconned and the way the present-day relationship plays out through that lens.
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[QUOTE=Tzigone;4670596]What's the "screw you Vicki Vale" for - I haven't read much '80s Batman, and can't remember anything Vicki, but she was usually just a fairly intelligent journalist who (in some eras) rightly suspected Batman was Bruce Wayne in the eras I did read her in. I assume she did something horrible in this era?
I generally like 1970s Batman. Have avoided a lot of earlier 1980s because I didn't want to get attached to pre-COIE Jason. Early post-COIE can be a real jerk. Some better stuff in early 90s. Late 90s to early 2000s is when he crosses the line into "don't want to read anything where he ever appears" territory.
I do remember generally liking him BTAS, though it's been ages since I watched. [B]Not[/b] a fan of Batman in The New Batman Adventures or even Justice League.
I'm an oddity in preferring the emotional health, and in preferring Dick to be the first member of immediate family after his parents died, keeping Alfred as a later addition. While I have enjoyed some aspects of Alfred as parent, it's one of those things I like less and less the more exposed to it I am and especially the more I actually think about it and what it means in terms of Bruce's personality as that personality has shifted/been retconned and the way the present-day relationship plays out through that lens.[/QUOTE]
Vikki back then... Well, lots of backhanded compliments were her at her nicest, to put it one way.
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[QUOTE=Tzigone;4670596]I'm an oddity in preferring the emotional health, and in preferring Dick to be the first member of immediate family after his parents died, keeping Alfred as a later addition. While I have enjoyed some aspects of Alfred as parent, it's one of those things I like less and less the more exposed to it I am and especially the more I actually think about it and what it means in terms of Bruce's personality as that personality has shifted/been retconned and the way the present-day relationship plays out through that lens.[/QUOTE]
The post-COIE change to have Alfred raise Bruce after the death of the Waynes really makes Alfred look like the most incompetent legal guardian/world's biggest enabler ever. Like put the kid into therapy dude.
Somehow, Bruce is more well adjusted when Alfred DIDN'T raise him. Plus oddly enough, the Silver Age had a bit more realism in that Bruce had an extended family to interact with and wasn't instantly left with no blood relatives as soon as both his parents were killed.
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[quote] Somehow, Bruce is more well adjusted when Alfred DIDN'T raise him. Plus oddly enough, the Silver Age had a bit more realism in that Bruce had an extended family to interact with and wasn't instantly left with no blood relatives as soon as both his parents were killed. [/quote]It's kinda weirder even later, since it seems like he has relatives, but his parents still pick the butler to raise him. Which, BTW, I kinda prefer Kate in her non-cousin status as a re-imagining of Kathy. Partially specifically for not having all those relatives available that were somehow unsuitable for raising Bruce.
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[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;4670725]The post-COIE change to have Alfred raise Bruce after the death of the Waynes really makes Alfred look like the most incompetent legal guardian/world's biggest enabler ever. Like put the kid into therapy dude.
Somehow, Bruce is more well adjusted when Alfred DIDN'T raise him. Plus oddly enough, the Silver Age had a bit more realism in that Bruce had an extended family to interact with and wasn't instantly left with no blood relatives as soon as both his parents were killed.[/QUOTE]
But Bruce was fairly well-adjusted at the start of his career...well, as well-adjusted as a man who dresses up like a bat to fight crime can ever be! Its only after years of crime-fighting take its toll on him that he starts to slide down that slippery slope towards becoming Batjerk.
[QUOTE=Tzigone;4670739]It's kinda weirder even later, since it seems like he has relatives, but his parents still pick the butler to raise him. Which, BTW, I kinda prefer Kate in her non-cousin status as a re-imagining of Kathy. Partially specifically for not having all those relatives available that were somehow unsuitable for raising Bruce.[/QUOTE]
Its established that the Waynes and the Kanes didn't get along. In fact, the New 52 really emphasized this aspect - there was a zero issue back in 2012 in which the Kane family tries to steal the Wayne fortune since Bruce was technically missing, presumed dead (during his years abroad) and Alfred was the only one standing in the way. Thomas Wayne literally trusted his butler to protect his son's inheritance from his wife's family!
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[QUOTE=bat39;4671664]But Bruce was fairly well-adjusted at the start of his career...well, as well-adjusted as a man who dresses up like a bat to fight crime can ever be! Its only after years of crime-fighting take its toll on him that he starts to slide down that slippery slope towards becoming Batjerk.[/QUOTE]
But even then, that should be pretty alarming to his legal guardian who is all in on his secret and we are meant to view as likable. Whereas if they made Phillip Wayne (who also had no idea his nephew wanted to become Batman, did he?) neglectful, I don't think people care as much.
And while he started out healthier in Year One, they did sort of retcon more of an edge back onto him earlier in his career. See the split with Dick pre-COIE vs. after. He acts more like a mature adult before the reboot.
Plus, if Alfred hangs around as a surrogate father, it makes Bruce seem a bit less independent. He doesn't need a replacement father figure and I'm not sure if he even wants one. Alfred works better as an older peer he meets as an adult, IMO.
