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Here's the thing for me.
1. I really don't like Ares as a mentor and would much rather have seen Athena as a mentor as it makes a lot more sense considering Diana's origins.
2. I love the way Ares is being written in the book and the interplay between him and Diana, but I still would have preferred Ares as a villain.
It just feels 'what if Lex Luthor had been Clark Kent's science professor and mentor in high school' and the entire 'villainy' angle of the character removed. Ares has been her antithesis from the get-go and I miss that.
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I tolerate it, but I'm not a fan. I agree with Dr. Poison that it's a bit arrogant to use your own physical appearance as the "God of War," though it may not be what he was intending. Still, various interviews and such make him come off as a bit pretentious (sarcastically so or not).
I'm still waiting for sexy Ares to return:
[img]http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/28079/1227981-ares__03__002__01_.png[/img]
In my opinion, war is destructive [I]and[/I] seductive, and I think Rucka had the best depiction of the war god so far.
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[QUOTE=Flatman;51314]I tolerate it, but I'm not a fan. I agree with Dr. Poison that it's a bit arrogant to use your own physical appearance as the "God of War," though it may not be what he was intending. Still, various interviews and such make him come off as a bit pretentious (sarcastically so or not).
I'm still waiting for sexy Ares to return:
[img]http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/2/28079/1227981-ares__03__002__01_.png[/img]
In my opinion, war is destructive [I]and[/I] seductive, and [b]I think Rucka had the best depiction of the war god so far.[/b][/QUOTE]
Totally agree with this.
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[QUOTE=Flatman;51314]I tolerate it, but I'm not a fan. I agree with Dr. Poison that it's a bit arrogant to use your own physical appearance as the "God of War," though it may not be what he was intending. Still, various interviews and such make him come off as a bit pretentious (sarcastically so or not).[/quote]
I still, respectfully, don't get how it's arrogant to portray oneself as a self-hating, worn-out, bitter old man, even if he does happen to be the god of war. Can anyone help me out with that?
Personally, I wonder if the reason Marston called his war god Mars instead of Ares was a little joke on himself: Mars is the base of MARSton.
[quote]In my opinion, war is destructive [I]and[/I] seductive, and I think Rucka had the best depiction of the war god so far.[/QUOTE]
I agree that War is both of those things, and I liked Rucka's too. From the way Demeter talked about him, Azzarello's Ares was probably seductive too in his youth, and I wouldn't mind seeing some flashbacks showing that aspect of the old War.
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My favorite version that I've read. It's the first time I understand the "why" behind the character. I also don't feel like the character has ever been fleshed out this completely.
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[QUOTE=Doctor Poison]Well, my personal issue with this is that as it stands now, Azz transformed WAres into a short-term plot device and sacrificed long-term story potential for the character.[/QUOTE]
Well, hey, personal issues and personal opinions are personal; no one can or should take them away from you. But it's odd, to me, to call him a "plot device" when he was treated as a three-dimensional character with both good and bad to him. And if the next writer needs a divine troublemaker and the First Born, Cassandra (who I think might become the new Nemesis), Strife, or someone else won't do, it would be child's play to resurrect Ares. So I don't see the sacrifice/
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[QUOTE=Silvanus;51352]I still, respectfully, don't get how it's arrogant to portray oneself as a self-hating, worn-out, bitter old man, even if he does happen to be the god of war. Can anyone help me out with that?[/QUOTE]
It's a creative no-no to input yourself into your works. Bits of yourself, yes, but your whole physical look? Particularly for the [B]god[/B] of war? You're free to feel differently, though.
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[QUOTE=Silvanus;51412]Well, hey, personal issues and personal opinions are personal; no one can or should take them away from you. But it's odd, to me, to call him a "plot device" when he was treated as a three-dimensional character with both good and bad to him. And if the next writer needs a divine troublemaker and the First Born, Cassandra (who I think might become the new Nemesis), Strife, or someone else won't do, it would be child's play to resurrect Ares. So I don't see the sacrifice/[/QUOTE]
To answer your question about arrogance. I think it would be arrogant of any creator to have a character based on his or her physical appearance in a book they are writing unless of course, they created that specific character. It just doesn't sit well with me. This has very little to do with specifically Azzarello although from the video interviews I've seen of him, I am certainly not in a place to think he is not an arrogant person. I won't elaborate on it further as I certainly don't want to personally insult him. As much as I don't care for his run of Wonder Woman, I don't hate the man on a personal level. We just have different ideas as to what Wonder Woman and her world should be about.
It could be child's play to resurrect WAres IF editorial allows it but given that WAres was made into Diana's ultimate mentor in this run, I have a hard time believing we'll see WAres revived in the next run in a much more villainous role.
Now I have a question for you. Why do you think Cassandra will become the new Nemesis?
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[QUOTE=Flatman;51428]It's a creative no-no to input yourself into your works. Bits of yourself, yes, but your whole physical look? Particularly for the [B]god[/B] of war? You're free to feel differently, though.[/QUOTE]
Isn't it a creative no-no to decide there [I]are[/I] creative no-nos?
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[QUOTE=Flatman;51428]It's a creative no-no to input yourself into your works. Bits of yourself, yes, but your whole physical look? Particularly for the [B]god[/B] of war? You're free to feel differently, though.[/QUOTE]
humm it was more like a joke from Chiang, Azz didn't said "do Ares just like me"
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[QUOTE=numberthirty;51465]Isn't it a creative no-no to decide there [I]are[/I] creative no-nos?[/QUOTE]
No.
[QUOTE=Blacksun;51547]humm it was more like a joke from Chiang, Azz didn't said "do Ares just like me"[/QUOTE]
Joke or not, he still went with it. He input himself in the role of one of Wonder Woman's top 3 baddies.
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Should Ares be her enemy.
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[QUOTE=Flatman;51428]It's a creative no-no to input yourself into your works. Bits of yourself, yes, but your whole physical look? Particularly for the [B]god[/B] of war? You're free to feel differently, though.[/QUOTE]
"Creative no-no" is a little bit of an oxymoron, don't you think? To the creative mind, rules are important, but they are usually breakable, and breaking them can be very important; they just need to be broken intelligently and with purpose. Morrison didn't care if it was a "creative no-no" to inject himself into his work as a character called The Author. Kanigher was happy to insert himself as the villain of an issue of Wonder WOman in which he eliminated most of the Silver Age supporting cast and villains. The novelist Paul Auster brilliantly inserts himself as a character, or possibly two characters (Paul Auster the writer, and Paul Auster the detective--who may or not be "real" in world of the novels) in his New York Trilogy. Vonnegut has a pretty obvious stand-in in the science fiction write Kilgore Trout in Slaughterhouse Five. This kind of metafiction isn't even exclusively a postmodern thing; Hemingway's narrator characters were sometimes pretty recognizably Hemingway. Cervantes inserted himself into Don Quixote in several important metafictional ways. And who's the hero of Dante's Divine Comedy? Dante. You can't get more canonical than Cervantes and Dante, so if those guys inserted themselves into fiction, is it really that much of a no-no? Of course, you can say Azzarello is no Cervantes and Dantes, and you would be 100% correct; but that's why I mentioned Morrison and Kanigher. You can also find creators (like Eliiot S! Maggin, I believe) inserted into Earth Prime stories in JLA and (if I remember right) Flash. It's not unheard of.
Anyway, I can see how presenting oneself as Wonder Woman's mentor or guide could seem arrogant; but then again, the writer as a character's mentor or guide kind of makes sense as a metaphor, since a writer necessarily directs the character's actions. And as he's presenting himself as a self-hating, bitter old man who broke off his mentorship of Wonder Woman after trying to make her betray her values of peace and mercy, that seems more self-denigrating than arrogant, to me.
[QUOTE=Doctor Poison] I think it would be arrogant of any creator to have a character based on his or her physical appearance in a book they are writing unless of course, they created that specific character.[/QUOTE]
No one person "created" Ares--as you sometimes like to remind us, he's in the public domain--but Azzarello created this version. By the way, I don't think it's arrogant of you to take the name Doctor Poison, even though you didn't create that character. ;) And let me ask you this: do you think it would be arrogant of a socially awkward, physically unattractive, short-statured writer to write himself into Dr. Psycho, or Marvel's Toad? To me, this would more likely be a sign of a self-deprecating sense of humor.
I'm not saying Azzarello isn't arrogant; I don't know that he is, but I would guess that he at least has a healthy-sized ego. But letting an artist depict him as a an embittered, worn-out old man who leaves a trail of bloody footsteps as he traipses from drive-by-shooting to suicide bombing, having failed to corrupt Wonder Woman into mercilessness? That doesn't strike me as a very positive self-portrait, and so it doesn't seem arrogant.
As for why I think Cassandra might take the role and name of Nemesis--it's just a wild guess, but here's my reasoning:
1. We know that Nemesis, who classically was the goddess of vengeance, is going to figure into the Future's End issues of Wonder Woman and Superman/Wonder Woman;
2. As one of the writers of Futures End as well as the outgoing writer of Wonder Woman, Azz may have had some influence over the Wonder woman: Future's End story, and he might have wanted it to grow out of his story in some way, so I think there's a chance that Nemesis will be connected to his story and won't be just a random villain-of-the day;
3. Cassandra is someone who seems to want revenge on the world, and who know has specific reasons to want vengeance on the First Born, so she seems like a decent fit for the role of goddess of vengeance
4. Last time we saw the goddess Nemesis, she was looking for a replacement (though this is my weakest premise, because I don't have any reason to think that Azz would be specifically interested in picking up a point form the discarded continuity of Wonder Woman: Odyssey)
5. This run has established that one can take on a god's role, at least in some cases, by killing him or her--so there's a chance that Cassandra could become Nemesis by killing Nemesis.
6. It's been a few months since I came up with some really good, out-there speculation, so it's time. ;)
[QUOTE=AmiMizuno]Should Ares be her enemy.[/QUOTE]
It depends on the story. In this one, though he isn't her enemy, he was her foil. Ares has shown us the wrong way to be the god of war--blood-soaked, believing for too ling int an ideology that says that war is inherently honorable, and too bitterly disillusioned when he learns that this is not true. Diana, by contrast, is going to try to find a better way to be god of war. In a way, Diana has taken on the Athena role, which may be one reason why Athena hasn't shown up yet.
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Didn't like his design one bit same with hades and Poseidon as well. His depiction well it is a new universe so a new ares was to be expected so i didn't mind, especially since apollo took over as the nemesis and he was spectacular. Still if he does come back in the new run i hope they change him from being a azz look alike. I mean seriously i don't see Aphrodite letting that old ass man be her paramour and he kinda should be more blood thirsty.
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[QUOTE=Black Angel;51738]Didn't like his design one bit same with hades and Poseidon as well. His depiction well it is a new universe so a new ares was to be expected so i didn't mind, especially since apollo took over as the nemesis and he was spectacular. Still if he does come back in the new run i hope they change him from being a azz look alike. I mean seriously i don't see Aphrodite letting that old ass man be her paramour and he kinda should be more blood thirsty.[/QUOTE]
War was strong and young before meet a young Diana, it was recently that he become a not sexy old man
