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[QUOTE=JAK;4452734]I think it depends on the situation and the perspective.[/QUOTE]
Oh, certainly. Taken to an extreme, or hitting too directly on an actual policy/person/issue......well, taking anything to an extreme usually means the whole argument falls apart. I definitely agree that a degree of.....consideration.....for the other side of the issue has to be taken into account. But I think there's room in the way Clark's written these days where he could be a little more out spoken without crossing a line.
[QUOTE]However, I can still enjoy Lois & Clark and like Dean Cain even though I generally don't agree with and sometimes can't stand his politics (and I'm sure he'd find my Sanders-leaning as equally offensive as I find his like of Gorka, lol). That doesn't change the fact that he's one #ell of a nice guy, on-screen and in person. It was a treat meeting him. And his fans were lovely. I was in my Superman suit when we did, and one of them asked to take my picture. I of course said yes, and she asked if I could hold something - and they were a pair of Trump socks. When I hesitated, she said gently "oh, do you not like him?", to which I responded "Well, it's just that Superman should never endorse any political candidate - he should be for everybody." She said "wow, you're absolutely right, I didn't think of that" and gladly took my picture without them. Still makes me smile when I think about it.[/QUOTE]
I feel like I've heard you relate that story before, and I absolutely love your response. It's exactly what Superman would say. Much love and respect for how you handled that situation.
[QUOTE]Back on topic: For something similar, look at Smallville since we discovered what we know now about Allison Mack. That's an extreme comparison, to be sure, but I bring it up because the political charge can sometimes be that strong in people's minds. Eventually, things will settle a bit and that won't be the case, but that'll take time for society to "de-program" itself. I'm ever the optimist, but I do think it'll happen in time.[/QUOTE]
Your optimism is, as always, refreshing, even if I can't bring myself to give people as much benefit of the doubt as you do. In this case though, I think I actually agree. Seems to me the path we've been on leads to one of two places; either things become so charged it becomes violent and we find ourselves fighting with our neighbors, or we realize that despite different politics we're all trying to make the nation we love a better place, and simply disagree on the details and re-learn how to co-exist. I dont think America has the stones for another civil war (at least on my good days) so I think you may be right.
[QUOTE]But for now - it's a fun thought-experiment to think of who we think he (and the rest of the cast) would support and why we feel that way, because this place is (gladly!) more about geekdom, and is barely political at all. And as you said, Sup[B]erman should be the same way when it comes to individual candidates or identity politics on any side (and all sides have it to at least some degree). What he absolutely can and should take stands on is looking at other people as people, treating you fellow (hu)man with compassion, and standing up against oppression, greed, and corruption.[/B] Those are strong messages that, while sometimes they can seem political, are necessary and central enough that we can each follow to some degree, no matter what side we stand on. :)[/QUOTE]
I definitely love digging into the possibilities and the un-turned rocks in Clark's character. It's fun to contemplate, especially because it's *just* a creative exercise and nothing is riding on the outcome. As for the bold part, that too is easily politicized it seems. I recall a few complaints when Morrison started his New52 run that Clark was, once again, going after big business, which some took as an attack on their politics (not sure why, unless they supported corruption). But I do very much agree that there are certain things that are universal, and Superman taking those issues on might be a nice way to remind us that (as Black Panther said in the film) more connects us than separates us.
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[QUOTE=Ascended;4454563]Oh, certainly. Taken to an extreme, or hitting too directly on an actual policy/person/issue......well, taking anything to an extreme usually means the whole argument falls apart. I definitely agree that a degree of.....consideration.....for the other side of the issue has to be taken into account. But I think there's room in the way Clark's written these days where he could be a little more out spoken without crossing a line.[/QUOTE]
Oh, absolutely. What I mean is that there are actual lines and perceived lines to due political/media manipulation. Caring for the well being of others is a basic tenant of humanity, at least to the average person. But when things become conflated as they have, it gets perceived as stepping across actual political lines due to manipulation. Life's "political moralities" don't really have a "side" generally (or certainly doesn't have to), and I see those as more than fine (as long as they're in character). And I think we're starting to see some of that experimented with in stories again (LL#1, for example). I certainly wouldn't mind more of it, as long as it's handled well (and in character).
[QUOTE]I feel like I've heard you relate that story before, and I absolutely love your response. It's exactly what Superman would say. Much love and respect for how you handled that situation.[/QUOTE]
You know, as I was typing that, I thought "I feel like I've said this before" lol - but I appreciate that. I definitely had early Post-Crisis in my head as I said it.
[QUOTE]Your optimism is, as always, refreshing, even if I can't bring myself to give people as much benefit of the doubt as you do. In this case though, I think I actually agree. Seems to me the path we've been on leads to one of two places; either things become so charged it becomes violent and we find ourselves fighting with our neighbors, or we realize that despite different politics we're all trying to make the nation we love a better place, and simply disagree on the details and re-learn how to co-exist. I dont think America has the stones for another civil war (at least on my good days) so I think you may be right.[/QUOTE]
I'm actually not sure if the nation doesn't have those stones, but I will say that I'm starting to see more people call out the difference between the "optics" of something and the "reality" of it, even if calling that out isn't in the person's best interest. That's one heck of a good start to turning that corner, and that gives me a lot of optimism. Ironically, it's coming along with some of the ol' Superman "Golden Age" mentality, which I won't complain about too much. ;)
[QUOTE]I definitely love digging into the possibilities and the un-turned rocks in Clark's character. It's fun to contemplate, especially because it's *just* a creative exercise and nothing is riding on the outcome. As for the bold part, that too is easily politicized it seems. I recall a few complaints when Morrison started his New52 run that Clark was, once again, going after big business, which some took as an attack on their politics (not sure why, unless they supported corruption). But I do very much agree that there are certain things that are universal, and Superman taking those issues on might be a nice way to remind us that (as Black Panther said in the film) more connects us than separates us.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely, and well said. Funny enough about folks saying Clark went after big business too much - that was definitely a phase of it's time. I can't imagine that being too much of a problem today, lol. But like anything else, these things have cycles. :)
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Clark wouldn't vote; he'd feel like he can't, except against Luthor.
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Lombard would vote for Trump with little care for his politics. He'd be motivated to support Trump because he isn't "PC" and "Tells it like it is".
The others are all fucking libs. Whoever they vote for in the primaries wouldn't matter because they would all vote for the Dem candidate in the general, whether it was Bernie or Biden and they wouldn't make an issue out of it.
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Huh, I'm thinking of the pre-Crisis Maggin style of Superman, where Clark is like a really elaborate alternate reality game Superman plays. Obviously that doesn't apply to the whole pre-Crisis era, but certainly for Maggin. I wonder if that Clark would ever vote for a different person than his Superman would, and Superman just has to let him do it.
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[QUOTE=Adekis;4479758]Huh, I'm thinking of the pre-Crisis Maggin style of Superman, where Clark is like a really elaborate alternate reality game Superman plays. Obviously that doesn't apply to the whole pre-Crisis era, but certainly for Maggin. I wonder if that Clark would ever vote for a different person than his Superman would, and Superman just has to let him do it.[/QUOTE]
That's an interesting question. I don't know if the schism between "Clark" and "Superman" ever went *quite* that deep.....but it very well may have, under Maggin. Is the guy on social media? Someone should ask him.
If the answer is yes.....that opens up some really interesting concepts.
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[QUOTE=Nelliebly;4439421]I do not think Lois would support Bernie Sanders over a qualified female candidate.[/QUOTE]
Too bad there aren't any running.
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Since this is the general election and not the primary, they all vote Democrat because Trump is clearly unfit. Even Ron Troupe.
As for the primary, I figure Social Issues would be the primary concern, with environmental policy a close second. Economic policy would only be relevent to them in so far as it relates to those issues.
I don't know enough about all of the primary candidates to determine who they'd vote for, but anyone with a bad record on Social issues like LGBT rights is out, which eliminates Tulsi
[QUOTE=Superfly Frankenstein;4441158]From his upbringings, I actually see Clark as far more conservative than liberal. Yes, he is a journalist, but he is not the writer of op-Eds. He is less sensational in his journalistic endeavors as, say Hannity or Maddow. Lois, as a military kid, would more than likely focus on what may help the military. I don’t think she would be a Trump fan by no means, but I can’t see her backing Bernie or Warren, and I think she would see through Biden. It would be tough to pick who they would vote for. Clark might try to find the most conservative Democrat, but I think he would try to be as middle of the road as possible. I see him more libertarian than anything.[/QUOTE]
Historically, Superman's politics have tended towards the Liberal side of the fence. In the Golden Age, he was basically a socialist.
[QUOTE=Flash Gordon;4448221]His being pals with Bruce Wayne is more a BATMAN and SUPERMAN are 2 major IPs. Batman's wealth has also gotten really overblown in recent years.
I guess it does muddy the waters, but hey Batman is a pal![/QUOTE]
To be honest if Batman votes, he'd be strongly in favor of a social safety net and wouldn't care about being taxed to pay for it.
[QUOTE=DochaDocha;4449034]Would Superman vote for a superior third-party candidate if one such candidate ran? Or would Superman vote strategically and try to push a policy or ideology across even if it meant voting for a more flawed candidate?
I could see Superman's vote going to a candidate who had no chance regardless of electability if he liked the candidate enough. Supporting a "hopeless" candidate sort of seems up his alley, especially if he had reason to believe the main candidates are in any way compromised.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Ascended;4449869]Im inclined to believe Clark would vote for whoever he thought would be the best person for the job, regardless of what their odds looked like.[/QUOTE]
Maybe in a less severe election, but in 2020 I suspect he would consider a third-party vote to be too immoral.
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[QUOTE=Jcogginsa;4540049]
Maybe in a less severe election, but in 2020 I suspect he would consider a third-party vote to be too immoral.[/QUOTE]
I think it depends on....this is hard to word correctly, work was killer today and my brain is fried.....I think it would depend on how much the writer has Clark value the lesser evil.
I think Clark has a fairly binary morality. An act is either right or wrong and the circumstances only weigh in so much. As the famous quote goes, "there is right and wrong in this universe and that distinction is not hard to make." This is why Clark always loses his sh*t when he takes a life. He doesn't believe in lethal force; in his mind it's wrong. So when he's been forced to use it he really struggles.
But at the same time, Clark is a guy with one eye on the future, and his actions are ultimately all aimed at helping us reach that bright and shiny future he knows is out there waiting for us to catch up to it.
So I suppose it'd depend on how "do or die" he felt this election would be. How much would he tolerate/support trump, and how much of a lost cause does he consider the democratic opposition to be? I can't imagine Clark being a trump supporter, but I also can't point at a democratic hopeful and say "Yeah, this is who Clark would get really excited about and back."
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[QUOTE=Ascended;4540989]I think it depends on....this is hard to word correctly, work was killer today and my brain is fried.....I think it would depend on how much the writer has Clark value the lesser evil.
I think Clark has a fairly binary morality. An act is either right or wrong and the circumstances only weigh in so much. As the famous quote goes, "there is right and wrong in this universe and that distinction is not hard to make." This is why Clark always loses his sh*t when he takes a life. He doesn't believe in lethal force; in his mind it's wrong. So when he's been forced to use it he really struggles.
But at the same time, Clark is a guy with one eye on the future, and his actions are ultimately all aimed at helping us reach that bright and shiny future he knows is out there waiting for us to catch up to it.
So I suppose it'd depend on how "do or die" he felt this election would be. How much would he tolerate/support trump, and how much of a lost cause does he consider the democratic opposition to be? I can't imagine Clark being a trump supporter, but I also can't point at a democratic hopeful and say "Yeah, this is who Clark would get really excited about and back."[/QUOTE]
I think Clark would see letting Trump stay in office be too evil an act to be part of, so to him the Moral choice would be to vote for the Candidate most likely to beat him, even if that candidate doesn't excite him.
Do long as the Dem Candidate isn't an actively bad persn, Clark would be willing to hold his nose and vote
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[QUOTE=Jcogginsa;4540049]Since this is the general election and not the primary, they all vote Democrat because Trump is clearly unfit. Even Ron Troupe.
[/QUOTE]
Not Steve Lombard. Lately he exists to be a strawman incel, chauvinist, right winger parody. He's not really a character, just some toxic masculinity to be the butt of a joke in the Daily Planet. He'd be the one shouting "fake news" before someone reminds him he works for the press, in which case he'd crush a beer can on his forehead and throw a football into Clark's monitor to ruffle the geek's feathers. That'll learn him for thinking his book smarts are better'n my street smarts!
I'm a lifelong liberal, but frankly in cape comics it's rare to find any degree of real discussion about politics. It's usually strawman arguments one way or the other. I would love for Superman comics to be where that changes, but to be honest, I don't see that being the case. Granted, with the current administration, I'm not sure how you can portray a fair argument for the conservative side because Trump's so outlandishly unqualified to be President that the facts look like parody.
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[QUOTE=Robanker;4541593]I'm a lifelong liberal, [B]but frankly in cape comics it's rare to find any degree of real discussion about politics[/B]. It's usually strawman arguments one way or the other. I would love for Superman comics to be where that changes, but to be honest, I don't see that being the case. Granted, with the current administration, I'm not sure how you can portray a fair argument for the conservative side because Trump's so outlandishly unqualified to be President that the facts look like parody.[/QUOTE]
I'm trying to find a medium that reliably looks at issues from every angle without resorting to name-calling, ad hominems, strawmen, etc..
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[QUOTE=Robanker;4541593] Granted, with the current administration, I'm not sure how you can portray a fair argument for the conservative side because Trump's so outlandishly unqualified to be President that the facts look like parody.[/QUOTE]
By using a fictional President rather than the real one??
I have thought about starting a thread asking question if anybody agrees with me that ALL real politicians ought to be avoided in mainstream DC or Marvel.
My "motive" would not be to avoid politics, but to actually allow exploring issues without distraction of reference to real politicians. It would also allow stories that might be legally impossible to publish if real names are used.
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[QUOTE=JackDaw;4541982]By using a fictional President rather than the real one??
I have thought about starting a thread asking question if anybody agrees with me that ALL real politicians ought to be avoided in mainstream DC or Marvel.
My "motive" would not be to avoid politics, but to actually allow exploring issues without distraction of reference to real politicians. It would also allow stories that might be legally impossible to publish if real names are used.[/QUOTE]
I always preferred a fictional president because doing otherwise does indeed cement the book in a time period, but so do many other things. It's fine. I can suspend my disbelief to a pretty high margin. The best benefit is that if said politician becomes a monster or martyr, you aren't bound by the books contents.
[QUOTE=DochaDocha;4541618]I'm trying to find a medium that reliably looks at issues from every angle without resorting to name-calling, ad hominems, strawmen, etc..[/QUOTE]
Never said it wasn't rare elsewhere! :p
We're just discussing cape comics specifically and I'm a bit tired of political arguments that are really more people shouting at each other thinking the other impassioned speaker will relent.
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[QUOTE=JackDaw;4541982]By using a fictional President rather than the real one??
I have thought about starting a thread asking question if anybody agrees with me that ALL real politicians ought to be avoided in mainstream DC or Marvel.
My "motive" would not be to avoid politics, but to actually allow exploring issues without distraction of reference to real politicians. It would also allow stories that might be legally impossible to publish if real names are used.[/QUOTE]
I prefer fictional Presidents, or a Unseen President (where his feet are on a desk hiding his face or his identity is otherwise masked) as a rule. There's a lot more freedom there, you're not dating your material by using a real person (it'll be dated in other ways of course, just not this one), lots of reasons to avoid using real world politicians.
For DC, I'd actually like to see Arn "Iron" Munroe become President. He's a D-list hero retroactively added into the Golden Age (to replace Superman in JSA related stories) and is heavily influenced by Gladiator, a novel that heavily inspired Superman.
I make an exception for period pieces though. If a story is set in the past I think it should use the sitting POTUS (as well as any other real world people who make sense for the story). It makes the era feel more authentic, and since the President in question is long out of office (probably even dead) the writer has the benefit of history's hindsight on their side, which makes writing that real person a bit easier and less biased.
