Olympians in the Marvel Universe

[B][U]First off, no spoilers for the Eternals movie. Yes, I'm talking about THAT spoiler![/U][/B]

I wanted to gain some clarity on this, considering the new Eternals film coming out. Mainly, I'd like for someone to correct me if I'm wrong on any points. I have thoroughly read the original run of The Eternals and The Thanos War arc, so I'm basing this on that.

So one of the first instances of Olympians in Marvel Comics was the appearance of Hercules as a main superhero in Journey into Mystery Annual #1 (1965). I'm not sure how much they ever got into his backstory, or family, like Zeus and all that.

Thanos was then introduced in 1973, and his full origin was explained in Captain Marvel #29 (Nov.). This delved into Greek mythology, stating that Cronos, rather than being deposed by his son as told in Greek Myth, actually had an experiment accidentally turn him into an incorporeal, cosmic being. Then his son Zeus took over and another of Cronos' sons, one more than is told of in myth, A'Lars, also known as Mentor, was banished from Earth, eventually coming to the moon Titan, which was ravaged by war and had only one survivor, a woman named Sui-San. A'Lars and Sui-San were married, and had two sons, Thanos and Eros. Apparently this was long enough ago that Eros still managed to come to Earth and work his way into the ancient Greek Myths. What's not ever explained is that, if Sui-San was the last survivor of Titan, how did it ever regrow? Apparently it grew into such a booming population that Thanos, as it's prince, was rich enough that, after being banished from it, he could grow an army of mercenaries that was a serious threat to the galaxy.

So I guess my first question is, since this was all supposed to be in the same Marvel Comics continuity as Hercules, did it jive at the time with the version of Zeus already presented, or was there some major retconning needed after this.

Then, in 1976, the Eternals came into the Marvel Universe, presenting Thena as the daughter of Zeus and the basis for the mythical character Athena. As far as I understand it, Eternals wasn't originally intended to be a part of the MU, so when they later decided it was, they had had to retcon this Zeus to be the same one that was both father of Hercules and uncle of Thanos. This also means that all Olympians are actually Eternals. I don't know if it's ever been retroactively explained why Hercules and other Greek figures that have become a part of the MU weren't included in the giant Eternals meeting in that short-lived series.

Is this all correct? So Thena and Hercules are actually siblings and cousins to Thanos, who is Half-Olympian/Eternal, and Half-Titan?

The Eternals and Olympians have no relationship in the MU whatsoever. They have interacted but are definitely separate races. This was discussed at length decades ago in Thor when the Eternals and Celestials were established as being part of the MU. That makes your entire post's premise faulty.

Short answer: no.

You are correct that the first Eternals comic was not set in the Marvel Universe. And there was good reason for that: their ways to relate to the greek deities are not compatible. In the Marvel Universe, Zeus, Hercules, and the others actually existed. In the Eternals' universe, Zeus, Hercules and the others were actually Zuras, the Forgotten One and other Eternals that the Greeks thought were Gods (the whole run is an homage to the idea of the "Ancient Astronauts" (they even mentioned "Chariots of the Gods?" at one of the covers).

When they merged the Eternals into the Marvel Universe some things were changed, for example now the Forgotten One is supposed to be Gilgamesh instead of Hercules. And that's the problem with retcons: sometimes they work smoothly, sometimes they don't.

So why is Thanos listed on wikis as a member of the Eternals race?

[QUOTE=Slimybug;5790151]So why is Thanos listed on wikis as a member of the Eternals race?[/QUOTE]

He was born from the Eternals faction that was on Titan(1 of Saturns moons)

[QUOTE=Covetous_One;5790154]He was born from the Eternals faction that was on Titan(1 of Saturns moons)[/QUOTE]

But the previous poster said that the Eternals were retconned so that they did NOT come from Greek Myth. However, Thanos’ origin clearly states he was born to the brother of Zeus, the son of Cronos. Marvel.wikis states that this Zeus was in fact Zuras. So it seems there IS still a connection between them and Greek Myth. I’m just very confused how this wouldn’t be the same Zeus as the father of Hercules.

[QUOTE=Slimybug;5790171]But the previous poster said that the Eternals were retconned so that they did NOT come from Greek Myth. However, Thanos’ origin clearly states he was born to the brother of Zeus, the son of Cronos. Marvel.wikis states that this Zeus was in fact Zuras. So it seems there IS still a connection between them and Greek Myth. I’m just very confused how this wouldn’t be the same Zeus as the father of Hercules.[/QUOTE]

Many of the Eternals had names of greek gods and the fact that the most known Eternals faction is the one on Olympia in Greece further adds to the confusion, which the Eternals themselves say had been a point of contention between them. Eternals and Olympians are two different races as Mt Olympus of the Olympians is similar to Asgard as it exists in a separate dimension. Also the Olympians existed before the Eternals.

[QUOTE=Slimybug;5790171]But the previous poster said that the Eternals were retconned so that they did NOT come from Greek Myth. However, Thanos’ origin clearly states he was born to the brother of Zeus, the son of Cronos. Marvel.wikis states that this Zeus was in fact Zuras. So it seems there IS still a connection between them and Greek Myth. I’m just very confused how this wouldn’t be the same Zeus as the father of Hercules.[/QUOTE]

When the Eternals were first brought into the MU in Roy Thomas' first run on Thor, it was established that the Eternals were unrelated to the actual Olympian gods, but they had been confused with each other by mortals on multiple occasions (for example The Forgotten One was the one who actually cleaned the Aegean Stables but it was attributed to Hercules). They even fought each other in Thor #291-292.

Mentor and the Titanians were retconned into being Eternals in Avengers #247 and back-up stories in What If? Vol. 1 #24-25. These retcons established that Thanos' grandfather is the Eternal Kronos, not the Titan father of Zeus, and that they had no connection to the Olympians.

It's the problem with retcons: each comic will say something as a fact, but you can't be completely sure when you read one if that is still canon or if it was changed by some later retcon.

Take for example the origin of humankind. in the first Eternals series the Celestials experimented on the hominids and spawned three new species, the Human, the Eternal and the Deviant. Yes, you read that fine: the human race was created by aliens. That part was changed when the series was incorporated to the Marvel Universe: now the Celestials created the Eternals and the Deviants, but then left the hominids to continue evolving on their own. But you can be forgiven if you ignored that: the first is in a series by Jack Kirby, the second in an obscure What If comic, and as it does not involve named characters it's not mentioned often.

[QUOTE=Ultimate Captain America;5789943]Short answer: no.

You are correct that the first Eternals comic was not set in the Marvel Universe. And there was good reason for that: their ways to relate to the greek deities are not compatible. In the Marvel Universe, Zeus, Hercules, and the others actually existed. In the Eternals' universe, Zeus, Hercules and the others were actually Zuras, the Forgotten One and other Eternals that the Greeks thought were Gods (the whole run is an homage to the idea of the "Ancient Astronauts" (they even mentioned "Chariots of the Gods?" at one of the covers).

When they merged the Eternals into the Marvel Universe some things were changed, for example now the Forgotten One is supposed to be Gilgamesh instead of Hercules. And that's the problem with retcons: sometimes they work smoothly, sometimes they don't.[/QUOTE]

While I agree over all, what evidence is there that the Forgotten One was intended to be Hercules as opposed to a brand new character?

[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;5790597]While I agree over all, what evidence is there that the Forgotten One was intended to be Hercules as opposed to a brand new character?[/QUOTE]

The tone of the series, basically everything in it explains something from the past with it being Celestials, Eternals, or Deviants. Add an issue with a character whose name is now forgotten and whose background is basically that of Hercules, then why think it wouldn't be intentional?

Note that when I say "Hercules" I mean the mythological deity, not the 616 character based on him. This would simply be another character based on Hercules, there are dozens of them (and the known one isn't even Marvel's first).

What about his background is basically Hercules? I guess that's the question I was asking.

[QUOTE=Mike_Murdock;5791995]What about his background is basically Hercules? I guess that's the question I was asking.[/QUOTE]

* He was known by many names (Heracles, Hercules, Alcides)
* He killed tyrants (Amyntor, Emathion, Busiris, etc)
* He slayed famous beasts (check his 12 labors)
* And of course, his strength

[QUOTE=Ultimate Captain America;5792061]* He was known by many names (Heracles, Hercules, Alcides)
* He killed tyrants (Amyntor, Emathion, Busiris, etc)
* He slayed famous beasts (check his 12 labors)
* And of course, his strength[/QUOTE]

Wasn't he also Samson and Gilgamash?