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[QUOTE=Celgress;5769237]I prefer Spidey's adventures being (mostly) self-contained.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I would prefer Spidey's own titles to be in a standalone world over an over-reliance on shared universe aspects. However, a small amount of shared universe references and occasional guest starring can add a bit more fun to the book. However, I have nothing against Peter guest-starring in other books/being part of superhero teams as long as that stuff doesn't interfere with his own storylines.
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[QUOTE=Huntsman Spider;5769701]That's a fair point, too. It'd be one thing if every other superhero in the MU was constantly being a jerk to him; I could see him not wanting to answer emails from them in that case. Of course, they're more hurt than angry that he seems to ignore them, which does make it easier for some to think the worst whenever something bad happens with Spider-Man in its vicinity. Kind of like what Jameson was saying in their podcast interview when he argued that Spider-Man brought at least some of his bad publicity on himself by refusing to open up to the media and clear the air with regard to all the accusations against him, or even to his superhero peers.[/QUOTE]
This is one thing I never got. Spiderman worked in a building full of reporters. yea he couldnt trust JJ to not slant him ever chance he got. But he could have given the interview to Ben or even Robbie who is a really good and fair reporter.
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I liked Spencer's take on Spider-Man, but I always thought he was blaming the victim there.
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[QUOTE=babyblob;5769787]This is one thing I never got. Spiderman worked in a building full of reporters. yea he couldnt trust JJ to not slant him ever chance he got. But he could have given the interview to Ben or even Robbie who is a really good and fair reporter.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Kaitou D. Kid;5769798]I liked Spencer's take on Spider-Man, but I always thought he was blaming the victim there.[/QUOTE]
Fair points there. Yeah, I could see where you're coming from with that, given how Jonah actually created supervillains for the purpose of going after Spider-Man, which is a huge step beyond slander or libel.
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I think it's a fair question to ask if most characters would benefit from not being in a shared universe.
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[QUOTE=kingaliencracker;5771704]I think it's a fair question to ask if most characters would benefit from not being in a shared universe.[/QUOTE]
Some characters would be diminished more than others.
Fantastic Four for instance would be diluted without their connections to the wider Marvel Universe. Like Doctor Doom loses a lot if he's not the guy who's been in the face of every do-gooder under the sun. Having said that there are still great stories you can do just by themselves, like "This Man this Monster" and certainly The Galactus Trilogy will lose much, if it's not just the Four by themselves facing him by themselves (as the Ultimate Galactus Trilogy which made it this dull long padded out event proves). And with Doom there are great stories with him versus the Four. It's just that his very greatest stories -- Triumph and Torment, Secret Wars, Emperor Doom -- has him outside the Four among the wider Marvel Universe.
Without the Avengers, Iron Man would be irrevocably diminished. That applies to the movies too. Sure Iron Man did well but how much return and repeat business did it get once word broke out about the end-credits about the Avengers and the Nick Fury cameo? A good part of Iron Man 2 was built around the Avengers hype. I would say Captain America and Thor would probably still work since there are more great Cap and Thor stories by themselves without connection and reference to Avengers than with Iron Man. But with Cap, UNDER SIEGE, which is the greatest Avengers story (and one of the great Cap stories) would be a huge major loss. Thor would be fine he's got Kirby, Simonson, Aaron, JMS to keep him buoyed in the comics but I doubt there would be any interest in adapting his stuff if it had not been for him as an Avenger.
X-Men of course would work pretty well without the shared universe. The Fox Movies, inconsistent as they are, proved that commercially they were viable as mutants by themselves. So Spider-Man is in good company with the Merry Mutants.
I would argue Daredevil is another character who would work okay without the wider Marvel Universe. People will bring up how Kingpin comes from Spider-Man but please be real. Kingpin was a minor Spider-Man villain until Daredevil and he's now a full-time permanent DD villain.
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I would add that Hulk is another character that works well solo and would be fine without a shared universe, even more than Cap and Thor. Hulk always had the most interesting villains out of all the main Avengers and was historically the most marketable out of the Big Four, except for maybe in the Kirby era where he might have been second to Thor. Hulk is actually a bit like Spider-Man in the sense that being an Avenger hurts his loner status and makes his life as Bruce Banner less interesting.
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[QUOTE=Kaitou D. Kid;5772068]I would add that Hulk is another character that works well solo and would be fine without a shared universe, even more than Cap and Thor. Hulk always had the most interesting villains of the Avengers and was historically the most marketable out of the Big Four, except for maybe in the Kirby era where he was might have been second to Thor.[/QUOTE]
Hulk definitely. Immortal Hulk has proven that.
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Well, Hulk in a shared universe you get Hulk vs Thor, Hulk vs Thing, and Hulk vs Hulkbuster...
[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5772051]Some characters would be diminished more than others.
Fantastic Four for instance would be diluted without their connections to the wider Marvel Universe. Like Doctor Doom loses a lot if he's not the guy who's been in the face of every do-gooder under the sun. Having said that there are still great stories you can do just by themselves, like "This Man this Monster" and certainly The Galactus Trilogy will lose much, if it's not just the Four by themselves facing him by themselves (as the Ultimate Galactus Trilogy which made it this dull long padded out event proves). And with Doom there are great stories with him versus the Four. It's just that his very greatest stories -- Triumph and Torment, Secret Wars, Emperor Doom -- has him outside the Four among the wider Marvel Universe.
Without the Avengers, Iron Man would be irrevocably diminished. That applies to the movies too. Sure Iron Man did well but how much return and repeat business did it get once word broke out about the end-credits about the Avengers and the Nick Fury cameo? A good part of Iron Man 2 was built around the Avengers hype. I would say Captain America and Thor would probably still work since there are more great Cap and Thor stories by themselves without connection and reference to Avengers than with Iron Man. But with Cap, UNDER SIEGE, which is the greatest Avengers story (and one of the great Cap stories) would be a huge major loss. Thor would be fine he's got Kirby, Simonson, Aaron, JMS to keep him buoyed in the comics but I doubt there would be any interest in adapting his stuff if it had not been for him as an Avenger.
X-Men of course would work pretty well without the shared universe. The Fox Movies, inconsistent as they are, proved that commercially they were viable as mutants by themselves. So Spider-Man is in good company with the Merry Mutants.
I would argue Daredevil is another character who would work okay without the wider Marvel Universe. People will bring up how Kingpin comes from Spider-Man but please be real. Kingpin was a minor Spider-Man villain until Daredevil and he's now a full-time permanent DD villain.[/QUOTE]
There were two Iron Man cartoons that were able to get by mostly mining his mythos (with the occasional guest heroes and Force Works having a bunch of other heroes, admittedly).
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Every character works best on their own IMO. Spider-man could very well exist on his own but being in a shared universe doesn't add or take away from the character.
But the shared universe just adds a fun dimension to everything. Some of my favorite titles back in the day were the Marvel Team-Up books and I always loved seeing heroes interact with one another.
Having superheroes exist in a hyper-stylized, sci-fi based reality is actually a very interesting concept and it was mined a lot [U]in the past[/U] for some interesting stories. Unfortunately, we don't see much of that anymore because modern day writers have lost the art of nuance and everything is some sort of "political statement".
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In the comics? With.
In the films? Without.
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[QUOTE=Frontier;5772247]Well, Hulk in a shared universe you get Hulk vs Thor, Hulk vs Thing, and Hulk vs Hulkbuster...
There were two Iron Man cartoons that were able to get by mostly mining his mythos (with the occasional guest heroes and Force Works having a bunch of other heroes, admittedly).[/QUOTE]
During the Micheline/Layton era (which was the most successful run on the character). Iron Man went long stretches with little interaction with the greater Marvel universe outside of his own rogues gallery. The book focused a lot on him and Jim Rhodes.
Particularly after "Armor Wars" where he basically freaked out and started taking out friend and foe alike on the suspicision of using his armor.
EDIT: Before then, if I remember correctly, Tony didn't even feature in the original Secret Wars. I believe it was still James Rhodes under the armor then...
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5772051]Some characters would be diminished more than others.
Fantastic Four for instance would be diluted without their connections to the wider Marvel Universe. Like Doctor Doom loses a lot if he's not the guy who's been in the face of every do-gooder under the sun. Having said that there are still great stories you can do just by themselves, like "This Man this Monster" and certainly The Galactus Trilogy will lose much, if it's not just the Four by themselves facing him by themselves (as the Ultimate Galactus Trilogy which made it this dull long padded out event proves). And with Doom there are great stories with him versus the Four. It's just that his very greatest stories -- Triumph and Torment, Secret Wars, Emperor Doom -- has him outside the Four among the wider Marvel Universe.[/QUOTE]
The FF are actually a good example of when shared universes work and when they don't work. They're not any closer to the Avengers than Spider-Man or the X-Men are, but unlike the latter two the FF share a lot of the same villains with the Avengers. So them crossing over all the time feels natural... but take Doom and Kang and the cosmic villains away and the FF have no unique relationship to the Avengers. In fact they're closer friends with Spider-Man than they are with anyone else. Yeah Tony and Reed will be science bros on screen and do techno babble together, but there's not much of an actual relationship there.
Even in the MCU, the Guardians fit well in Infinity War and Endgame because of the Thanos connection. Take that villain away and the Guardians showing up out of the blue would feel intrusive.
We see this with other characters too. Spider-Man and Daredevil and The Punisher share a lot of mobster villains, so their interactions feel organic and separating them into universes would feel like something is being diminished.
Seems like the way to have Spider-Man frequently interact with groups like the Avengers and the FF more often is if all parties start sharing their villains more.
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[QUOTE=Kaitou D. Kid;5772715]The FF are actually a good example of when shared universes work and when they don't work. They're not any closer to the Avengers than Spider-Man or the X-Men are, but unlike the latter two the FF share a lot of the same villains with the Avengers. So them crossing over all the time feels natural... but take Doom and Kang and the cosmic villains away and the FF have no unique relationship to the Avengers. In fact they're closer friends with Spider-Man than they are with anyone else. Yeah Tony and Reed will be science bros on screen and do techno babble together, but there's not much of an actual relationship there.[/quote]
They did the Illuminati thing where Tony and Reed and others form a think tank and were totally insufferable, lol.
[quote]Even in the MCU, the Guardians fit well in Infinity War and Endgame because of the Thanos connection. Take that villain away and the Guardians showing up out of the blue would feel intrusive.[/quote]
Agreed.
[quote]We see this with other characters too. Spider-Man and Daredevil and The Punisher share a lot of mobster villains, so their interactions feel organic and separating them into universes would feel like something is being diminished.[/quote]
Well The Punisher is one character who always fits oddly in the Marvel Universe, and represents a pivot where it breaks down.
-- The Punisher killing criminals or bad guys makes any story where Wilson Fisk has to walk out alive hard to explain. If Frank Castle murders gangsters and crime lords by the dozens, why is Fisk still breathing? That explanation isn't needed for guys who can dodge bullets or have tech or powers that help them survive such stuff, like I get why The Punisher doesn't kill Doctor Doom for instance. But Fisk makes no sense as to why he's alive?
-- The Punisher killing his bad guys also makes Spider-Man and Daredevil and Captain America and other "no-kill heroes" feel ineffective or hypocritical. Like if Spider-Man doesn't shut down Castle and send him to jail, and basically lets him roam about then tacitly he's condoning Castle's vigilantism. That goes for Daredevil and other Marvel heroes. Now of course this applies to others (Wolverine, Venom) so it's par for the course but the Punisher makes it egregious imo.
Having said all this, I feel Castle/Punisher makes best sense as a villain and foil for Marvel heroes in the Shared Universe than he would in a solo universe by himself. Like Punisher MAX or other serious Punisher bleakfests is more realistic, putatively, but it's also more offensive and disingenuous in having a gun-toting gun-bearing nutjob declare a one-man war on crime. Punisher works best as a foil for heroes but not as a protagonist. Especially his scenes with Dardevil in SEASON 2 of the Netflix Show.
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5772734]They did the Illuminati thing where Tony and Reed and others form a think tank and were totally insufferable, lol.
Agreed.
Well The Punisher is one character who always fits oddly in the Marvel Universe, and represents a pivot where it breaks down.
-- The Punisher killing criminals or bad guys makes any story where Wilson Fisk has to walk out alive hard to explain. If Frank Castle murders gangsters and crime lords by the dozens, why is Fisk still breathing? That explanation isn't needed for guys who can dodge bullets or have tech or powers that help them survive such stuff, like I get why The Punisher doesn't kill Doctor Doom for instance. But Fisk makes no sense as to why he's alive?
-- The Punisher killing his bad guys also makes Spider-Man and Daredevil and Captain America and other "no-kill heroes" feel ineffective or hypocritical. Like if Spider-Man doesn't shut down Castle and send him to jail, and basically lets him roam about then tacitly he's condoning Castle's vigilantism. That goes for Daredevil and other Marvel heroes. Now of course this applies to others (Wolverine, Venom) so it's par for the course but the Punisher makes it egregious imo.
Having said all this, I feel Castle/Punisher makes best sense as a villain and foil for Marvel heroes in the Shared Universe than he would in a solo universe by himself. Like Punisher MAX or other serious Punisher bleakfests is more realistic, putatively, but it's also more offensive and disingenuous in having a gun-toting gun-bearing nutjob declare a one-man war on crime. Punisher works best as a foil for heroes but not as a protagonist. Especially his scenes with Dardevil in SEASON 2 of the Netflix Show.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
Honestly, I don't think the Punisher works in core Marvel universe. But oddly he shares villains and has interacted with core Marvel characters.
Heck, he even killed the Mandarin.
But seriously, how many villains have killed more people than the Punisher on-panel? He really should have been locked away by now.