Why isn't Bendis' run doing better, both critically and commercially?

I'm willing to give a little more time on Rogol, but not much more. I've given a longer tether than other fans but even I'll have to stop defending the character if we don't get the point fast.

[QUOTE=kingaliencracker;4372050]I didn't bring up Immortal Hulk as proof that it could or would consistently defeat Batman.

I brought it up as an example of a (more or less) middling character in Hulk getting a good writer, and after a period of quality story telling and good word-of-mouth, it actually being a top-5 book able to defeat DC's flagship character.

To act like the same can't happen for Superman is, IMO, a defeatist attitude. Superman would only need a good writer and a clear direction.[/QUOTE]

No, I know that. What I'm saying is that after Ewing, Hulk will likely be back to it's "normal" floor of sales. The last time Hulk was this hot was probably circa Planet Hulk and after World War Hulk, Pak's run receded and then it bounced between a bunch of lackluster runs and directional shifts. The difference between a Hulk or Superman and a Batman is the floor for the sales is a lot higher with Batman. Batman, for a lot of reasons I personally cannot fathom, just retains a base level of popularity and sales that most other books, besides Amazing Spider-Man, can't match anymore. Yes a solid run will improve sales, but they bleed off either with a creative team change of just through general attrition. Settling back to whatever baseline the character seems to have.

I'm definitely in the camp that believes that the issue is Superman, not Bendis.

And it's not just Superman. Each comics character has his or her core fanbase that will read the comic no matter what. Superman can count on 40k to 50k sales at this point in his career.

Talking about Immortal Hulk is irrelevant as that's getting a lot of buzz and is a major sea change for the character. Writing Superman within his status quo will attract his 40-50k fans and disinterest the rest no matter who is writing and drawing it.

There might be some writers and artists that can move the needle, but even then I think it works when the run is short. A 12-issue run by Jim Lee will bump sales for the entire run, but a 100-issue run by Jim Lee will eventually see sales fall, and I couldn't say for sure that they wouldn't fall all the way back to the standard 40-50k. Of course, we'll never know since Lee has never had a 100-issue run on anything. I don't know if he's ever drawn even [I]twenty [/I]consecutive issues of anything, but that's another story.

Comics readers have their buying patterns. It's why Batman and Superman will always outsell Detective and Action -- even in Action's case where it's written by the same guy who writes Superman and even when everyone who reads both is saying Action is better. Why? Buying patterns. Habits. That's why.

Anyway, it might be a shame that Superman isn't a Top 10 seller, but both Super-titles were in the Top 30 in April, so that's not bad at all.

Hey, SUPERMAN is outselling Uncanny X-Men, Major X, Walking Dead, Deadpool -- even Star Wars! All comics that fans think are "cooler" than Superman.

If you take out events/minis/specials and just look at ongoing series, here's how the Super-titles rank for April:

1. Immortal Hulk
2. Batman
3. Amazing Spider-Man
4. Detective Comics
5. Justice League
6. Avengers
7. Venom
8. Fantastic Four
9. Green Lantern
10. Superman
11. Uncanny X-Men
12. Star Wars
13. Action Comics
14. Walking Dead
15. Guardians of the Galaxy

So, both Superman and Action Comics land in the top 13. That's not terrible. In fact, Superman and Action sell better than the majority of Marvel's lineup.

Now, the Bendis factor is another matter. Given that no writer can really move the needle (except downward if the story drives away the core fans), then maybe DC is wondering if Bendis is earning his keep.

Maybe the reason that Tom King is getting dropped from Batman by the end of the year is because Bendis will be done with his Superman arc by that time, so DC would want to transfer him over to Batman where his name and reputation for doing great street level stuff will successfully move the sales needle back up for Batman.

A hot Batman storyline does generate more fan interest and sales than a hot Superman story everything else being equal. Maybe DC feels King is better used elsewhere on B & C list characters where he can do his King-thing, and Bendis can do a more widely loved Batman comic.

So, win-win.

We'll see if Bendis is indeed the replacement writer on Batman next year. I'd be surprised if he weren't. DC does have to justify to the AT&T brass the sweetheart deal they undoubtedly gave Bendis to defect from Marvel and Superman and Wonder Comics ain't exactly setting the world on fire.

By the same token, maybe Marvel is asking themselves if it was worth stealing the Conan license from Dark Horse. Conan is only on his 5th issue, and it's selling 36k. Savage Sword of Conan issue 4? 27k.

So, boring old outdated Superman is selling lots better than all of the supposedly cool, badass characters -- even with their big marketing pushes. But, the reality is that he's probably never going to be the hottest character in the industry. That's ok, he's still a reliable seller even if no one ever does cartwheels over a Superman comic.

I think it's purely that Bendis isn't the big draw anymore that used to be. Even at Marvel he was winding down in importance. Personally I don't mind what he's doing to a degree. The whole aging Jon and whiffing hard on Jor-el has been pretty much it along with his lame villain. So basically just the Superman book.

I don't think the problem is the character - it's the perception of the medium and the group that said media is generally marketed and made available to.

Superman does pretty well given all this, which is nice to see. But Superman's not a "comics crowd" character - he's a "general public" character (ask the average comics-goer who the "cool superheroes" are - if Superman gets much of a mention, it's largely for historical purposes). He did his best work when it was easily out there to be found by larger groups than the comics crowd.

The Wal-Mart idea was a good way to potentially change that... but it was too hard to find issues and still too small of a scope. I think that if there were a way to put Superman back on newsstands (probably next to impossible but still), his numbers would jump. Iirc, he consistently was a top performer there.

I could be way off base, but that's what I see.

[QUOTE=Yoda;4370998]The audience for Superman books really seems to be like 40K-50K for Superman and 35K-45K for Action. Events and relaunches move it up or down a bit, but it seems to revert to that mean.

Bendis is probably selling slightly better than average, and his books are performing pretty well for the market as a whole. Short of like Alan Moore coming on board for a 100 issue opus or Jim Lee taking over regular art duties I don't think the Superbooks get into the Bat-Tier regular monthly sales barring a major shift in the market.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, Jurgens and Tomasi were selling just as many copies weren't they - and twice as often. That's a net loss for DC.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4374036]Yeah, Jurgens and Tomasi were selling just as many copies weren't they - and twice as often. That's a net loss for DC.[/QUOTE]

Double shipping probably was doing more harm than good for [I]Superman[/I]. All the fill ins were hurting sales and killing momentum on the book narratively. By the end of their run Superman was in the low 40's. If they had switched it back to monthly it might have helped keep it more stable.

But they weren't pulled for sales reasons as far as we know. Though there was apparently a planned shakeup in the works regardless with Lois leaving the books for a bit. They were pulled because Bendis asked for the books, they weren't offered to him. And it did bump sales for the last year. Superman right now is selling better than it was at the tail end of their run. Action isn't, mainly because the end of Jurgens run had the lenticular covers and then the Action 1000 hype.

[QUOTE=Digifiend;4374036]Yeah, Jurgens and Tomasi were selling just as many copies weren't they - and twice as often. That's a net loss for DC.[/QUOTE]

With the upcoming Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen books, the Superman line will be back to 4 books a month. However, given the average comics buyers disinterest in titles starring fully clothed women who [I]aren't [/I]superheroes, I would expect those books are going to do better in trades. ;)

[QUOTE=Yoda;4374054]Double shipping probably was doing more harm than good for [I]Superman[/I]. All the fill ins were hurting sales and killing momentum on the book narratively. [/QUOTE]

But that's not right. From the publicly available sales data both Tomasi and Jurgen had over a much smaller loss rate than Bendis. If double shipping is bad for sales than frankly Bendis is in worse shape in comparison to the two previous creative teams that had it.

[QUOTE=Yoda;4374054]Double shipping probably was doing more harm than good for [I]Superman[/I]. All the fill ins were hurting sales and killing momentum on the book narratively. By the end of their run Superman was in the low 40's. If they had switched it back to monthly it might have helped keep it more stable.

But they weren't pulled for sales reasons as far as we know. Though there was apparently a planned shakeup in the works regardless with Lois leaving the books for a bit. They were pulled because Bendis asked for the books, they weren't offered to him. And it did bump sales for the last year. Superman right now is selling better than it was at the tail end of their run. Action isn't, mainly because the end of Jurgens run had the lenticular covers and then the Action 1000 hype.[/QUOTE]

For the first year of Tomasi's run, the title never dipped below 50,000. That was 24 issues. Now Bendis has dropped below the 50,000 mark before reaching a full year and 10 issues. That doesn't really show that double shipping did more harm.

[QUOTE=Bruce Wayne;4374769]But that's not right. From the publicly available sales data both Tomasi and Jurgen had over a much smaller loss rate than Bendis. If double shipping is bad for sales than frankly Bendis is in worse shape in comparison to the two previous creative teams that had it.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Sam;4374823]For the first year of Tomasi's run, the title never dipped below 50,000. That was 24 issues. Now Bendis has dropped below the 50,000 mark before reaching a full year and 10 issues. That doesn't really show that double shipping did more harm.[/QUOTE]

I'm talking about the second year when there were months of meaningless fill in stories that hurt sales and the narrative momentum of the book. They were going to have to do something to jolt the book back up at some point. They were going to move them back to Metropolis and it appears Lois was even going to be dropped from the books for an extended period regardless.

And Rebirth was an across the line relaunch akin to the New 52. Not a creative team switch, one new #1 and slight new direction. It's not a 1 to 1 comparison. Bendis' loss rate is consistent with the market right now more or less. And is actually a little better for Action Comics. Morrison's Green Lantern actually had performed worse percentage and retention wise than Superman or Action Comics. Action Comics has actually retained more of its audience than both.

In all honesty, he lost me when he put him in trunks again lol. I knew there was gonna be regression in the character. DC brass are such idiots, so desperate that they don't consider the repercussions of their actions. Bendis isn't good with established A - list characters. He's better with B or C list characters. I guarantee you if he were writing The Question for example, he would have better success and he would flourish. He takes over Batman, it's gonna be a bigger disaster than his Superman run.

[QUOTE=Yoda;4374891]I'm talking about the second year when there were months of meaningless fill in stories that hurt sales and the narrative momentum of the book. They were going to have to do something to jolt the book back up at some point. They were going to move them back to Metropolis and it appears Lois was even going to be dropped from the books for an extended period regardless.

And Rebirth was an across the line relaunch akin to the New 52. Not a creative team switch, one new #1 and slight new direction. It's not a 1 to 1 comparison. Bendis' loss rate is consistent with the market right now more or less. And is actually a little better for Action Comics. Morrison's Green Lantern actually had performed worse percentage and retention wise than Superman or Action Comics. Action Comics has actually retained more of its audience than both.[/QUOTE]

Oh, it was clearly apparent you were talking about the second half of the rebirth runs, but I'm saying you can't compare the second year of double shipping with the first year of single shipping to prove that double shipping harms the title.

And while a line wide relaunch and a character relaunch aren't totally comparable, DC sunk heavy, heavy promotion into Bendis's takeover on the title. Good chance they have to have to pay Bendis more too. It promoted way beyond other creative team switches and new number ones, so to classify it as just that is slightly disingenuous.

[QUOTE=Yoda;4374891]I'm talking about the second year when there were months of meaningless fill in stories that hurt sales and the narrative momentum of the book. [/QUOTE]
And that's not true either. Even if you eliminate the Oz effect crossover and compare the 2nd year of Rebirth versus Bendis's run the drops on Tomasi and Jurgen's books are just much less. And Jurgens had an upward trajectory for his second year on Rebirth (without the crossover numbers).

Superman’s lost about 63% of its units sold over the first 9 issues, going from 133K to about 49K Superman. It’s been pretty stable the last three months. Rebirth lost a little over 50% going from 105K to about 50K, and lost like 68% over the run, finishing in the low 40’s.

Bendis’s Action has only lost about 46% over its run. Jurgens Action is tough to compare because of the lenticulars and the buzz leading into Action 1000 definitely gave it a boost. At the end of Jurgens first year he was selling about the same more or less as Bendis is now.

Rebirth, which I liked, was not that different than Bendis’ numbers at all. And Bendis’ Superman is in a softer market than Rebirth was. So you cannot say that it’s some massive failure compared to Rebirth because it just isn’t. Morrison’s green Lantern has lost more faster than Superman under Bendis and the drops in Bendis’ sales are pretty consistent with the market. Really popular and well performing books like Venom do better, but Amazing Spider-Man and Batman are selling comparably.

Bendis has had a solid, but not spectacular run on Superman. It is actually charting better than Rebirth somewhat, so in relation to the market Superman is probably outperforming his average sales. Which are again in that 40-50K range.

I’ve never said Rebirth wasn’t popular or sold well. I liked it a lot. I just don’t buy into this idea that Bendis is some failure because he’s isn’t hitting these imagined sales goals BC or some youtuber make up.