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So the term "deconstruction" gets thrown around a bit, that idea of a hero being made to perhaps look less heroic as the writer/artist attempts to perhaps humanize them or tell a deeper tale. I think one example might be Frank Miller's Batman, The Dark Knight. The big one of course is Alan Moore/Dave Gibbon's Watchmen. Can anyone here suggest other DC stories or comics, either modern or classic, where deconstructionism is prevalent?
Superman: Whatever Happened to the Man of Tomorrow?, which explores ideas such as the Silver Age Superman having to kill, something which he wouldn't have done under usual circumstances.
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The Boys would be obvious one.
That really depends on what is meant with the term "deconstruction". It's vague enough as used by Derrida, and the usage as used here or in other examples of pop culture criticism is a lot removed from Derrida's already vague definition.
But if the meaning of deconstruction is taken to be to examine and possibly expose the assumptions of a genre, then [I]The Dark Knight Returns[/I] and [I]Watchmen[/I] are of course excellent examples. Other good examples might be "Oracle: Year One" by Ostrander and Kim Yale, [I]New Frontier[/I] by Darwyn Cooke, or [I]The Hiketeia[/I] by Greg Rucka.
[QUOTE=kjn;4504161]That really depends on what is meant with the term "deconstruction". It's vague enough as used by Derrida, and the usage as used here or in other examples of pop culture criticism is a lot removed from Derrida's already vague definition.
But if the meaning of deconstruction is taken to be to examine and possibly expose the assumptions of a genre, then [I]The Dark Knight Returns[/I] and [I]Watchmen[/I] are of course excellent examples. Other good examples might be "Oracle: Year One" by Ostrander and Kim Yale, [I]New Frontier[/I] by Darwyn Cooke, or [I]The Hiketeia[/I] by Greg Rucka.[/QUOTE]
May I ask how Oracle: Year One is a deconstruction.
Kind of hard for me to tell, since I've always had a bit of trouble understanding exactly what is meant by "deconstruction", but going with "to examine and possibly expose the assumptions of a genre" and add "characters" to that, I'd say Batman: The White Knight is kind of an interesting deconstruction of the Batman/Joker dynamic I think.
I don't know what Keith Giffen & Co were trying to do with Sun Boy/Dirk Morgna in the 5-year later Legion, but they sure made him less-heroic for sure.
Dick Grayson kind of went through this when Starfire married someone else in New Teen Titans.
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Alan Moore's [I]Supreme[/I] is absolutely this. SA Superman transplanted into the late nineties. Particularly the Supremacy. Where they had every previous incarnation of the character from every era. Even "imaginary" ones.
[QUOTE=caj;4504434]Dick Grayson kind of went through this when Starfire married someone else in New Teen Titans.
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Dick has gone through it a couple times. Devin Grayson got lost in it with him in her run, and it turned out really bad, and now even they are doing it really bad again with Ric. Which unfortunately is just being done by really awful creators so with Ric rather then getting anything actually insightful or profound it just came in the form of generic stuff like “how unhealthy is the Bat cave, aha aha”, “superheroes are dumb, aha aha”. But I guess thats kind of debt and insightfulness one can only be expected when they put it in the hands of someone like Lobdell.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4504497]Dick has gone through it a couple times. Devin Grayson got lost in it with him in her run, and it turned out really bad, and now even they are doing it really bad again with Ric. Which unfortunately is just being done by really awful creators so with Ric rather then getting anything actually insightful or profound it just came in the form of generic stuff like “how unhealthy is the Bat cave, aha aha”, “superheroes are dumb, aha aha”. But I guess thats kind of debt and insightfulness one can only be expected when they put it in the hands of someone like Lobdell.[/QUOTE]
I disagree with calling the whole Ric thing a deconstruction. A character assassination is not the same thing as a deconstruction.
[QUOTE=Agent Z;4504171]May I ask how Oracle: Year One is a deconstruction.[/QUOTE]
To some degree it's a subjective "I know it when I see it", and you probably have to take the entire creation of Oracle into account, but it carries an implied criticism of the way women are treated in comics and does it by making women and wounds visible and explicit. It also criticises Batman's actions, reactions, and priorities in TKJ in a way that makes them universal: Barbara's words to Batman reaches outside the confines of the panel and hits DC, and arguably the entire comics industry.
[QUOTE=iron chimp;4504125]The Boys would be obvious one.[/QUOTE]
From what little I've read in the Boys, that's more just Ennis bitching and moaning about them and making them as horrible as possible to justify pissing on them.
And propping up his favorite archetypes at their expense, or at least not savaging his favorite "Tough Guys" nearly as badly.
Alan Moore's Marvelman was the poster child for deconstruction. Mick Anglo's Marvelman was an ersatz Captain Marvel that was created to take the place of the Big Red Cheese in the 1950s when Fawcett went out of business and the British publisher had no more Marvel Family stories to print. While Moore's revival of Marvelman in 1982 subverted the wholesome family values of the characters.
Moore then goes on to do more deconstruction style work. But I would say that Supreme is a different case. Because Rob Liefeld had created Supreme to be a testosterone fueled Superman copy and when Alan Moore took over he infused the character with some of the classic Superman optimism. This is probably what you would call reconstruction.
[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;4504686]From what little I've read in the Boys, that's more just Ennis bitching and moaning about them and making them as horrible as possible to justify pissing on them.
And propping up his favorite archetypes at their expense, or at least not savaging his favorite "Tough Guys" nearly as badly.[/QUOTE]
There are big themes about corporate art and politics, the comics industry, merchandising, and why we expect our corporate heroes to behave in ways that humans dont behave amongst other things.
But yes if you havent read it then it will look as you describe it.
[QUOTE=kjn;4504663]To some degree it's a subjective "I know it when I see it", and you probably have to take the entire creation of Oracle into account, but it carries an implied criticism of the way women are treated in comics and does it by making women and wounds visible and explicit. It also criticises Batman's actions, reactions, and priorities in TKJ in a way that makes them universal: Barbara's words to Batman reaches outside the confines of the panel and hits DC, and arguably the entire comics industry.[/QUOTE]
I don’t know if it is subjective. It comments on how women are treated, and how Babs was treated, but ultimately it was as story about reconstruction. Part of the grossness of Babs’ story is she wasn’t even given the respect or thought to actually deconstruct who she was. As Oracle Year One points out what happen to her wasn’t even about her. She was just fodder.
Thanks for the input, guys. There were some ideas here that I hadn't considered and I appreciate the debate.
[QUOTE=Godlike13;4505047]I don’t know if it is subjective. It comments on how women are treated, and how Babs was treated, but ultimately it was as story about reconstruction. Part of the grossness of Babs’ story is she wasn’t even given the respect or thought to actually deconstruct who she was. As Oracle Year One points out what happen to her wasn’t even about her. She was just fodder.[/QUOTE]
Trouble is that the term "reconstruction" is even more vague and nebolous than "deconstruction". I know TVTropes created some sort of popular interpretations of the terms, but those interpretations suffer from both being vague, missing a lot of the point of the original term it borrowed (which was vague to being with), and being too focused on the elements of the work—like plot or characters.
What Oracle Year One is concerned with here when it comes to the topic of deconstruction isn't the character of Babs. What it deconstructs is rather tropes and conventions of superhero comics: fridging, the moral superiority of the hero (Batman), the eternal return to status quo.
It just makes quick comments on them. It doesn’t actually take apart and explore any of that beyond its quick commentary that really just points it out. It’s main objective was to show how they were taking these seemingly discarded pieces to build something new, where Babs is the hero.
I think All Star Superman I would say is a good one. Though in a more optimistic manner.
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[QUOTE=katefan;4504098]So the term [B]"deconstruction"[/B] gets thrown around a bit, that idea of a hero being made to perhaps look less heroic as the writer/artist attempts to perhaps humanize them or tell a deeper tale. I think one example might be Frank Miller's Batman, The Dark Knight. The big one of course is Alan Moore/Dave Gibbon's Watchmen. Can anyone here suggest other DC stories or comics, either modern or classic, where deconstructionism is prevalent?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;4504706]...This is probably what you would call [B]reconstruction[/B].[/QUOTE]
Not mentioned yet is [B]Kingdom Come[/B] which was a bit of both.
And commentary on the times.
Golden and Silverage live on in the cheesy nostalgia driven superhero themed restaurant.
New generation rejects them and Superman, and choose instead their golden idol Magog and the fetishised grim dark vigilantes, who are judge and executioners in one. (which were part of the popular 90's boom).
Batman is put in the role of protecting humanity from them.
While Superman (as a character and a [I]concept[/I]) has to find his way (and his role) back into this new world.
The whole thing was a commentary on does he fit, if so how? A dated ideal, a power fantasy, something to aspire to, a vision of tomorrow, hope... etc.?
There seems to be a process of first construction (the original building of a character or concept), then deconstruction (tearing down what was constructed) and then reconstruction.
Superman was somewhat deconstructed after Crisis, so ALL-STAR SUPERMAN was a reconstruction. The working premise for Grant Morrison was what if there had never been a reboot, but the concept would have still changed with the passage of time as everything does. So Morrison was reconstructing what had existed before. But like with other reconstruction work, there were modern upgrades--improved plumbing, earthquake-proofing, no asbestos.
When I think of deconstruction I think of stories where the whole point of the narrative is to call out tropes and conventions of the genre or the form. Not just a character questioning themselves or going through hard times when you're not used to seeing them do so. Something like "Black Hammer" or the recent "Thunderbolt" would be examples of deconstruction to me.
[QUOTE=ed2962;4505500]When I think of deconstruction I think of stories where the whole point of the narrative is to call out tropes and conventions of the genre or the form. Not just a character questioning themselves or going through hard times when you're not used to seeing them do so. Something like "Black Hammer" or the recent "Thunderbolt" would be examples of deconstruction to me.[/QUOTE]
I'd agree with this definition, as well as what Vakanai said on the previous page. I also agree that "Kingdom Come" is a good example.
I think O'Neil's "The Question" went there more than a few times. That Vic Sage could be seen as a comic book hero who gets shot in the head then realizes he's been living a comic book life and begins to question the tropes of violence and heroism that he was born into and whether or not he should still accept them as his existence.