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Savage Dragon.
Hey,
I'm a bit bummed to see so little love for one of Image Comic's longest running series: Savage Dragon.
With Invincible ending, it's one of the last classic superhero books from Image. Kirkman has often cited this as (one of) his favorite books and one of the biggest influences on his work. I'm always surprised to hear people don't even know it's still coming out. How do you not know about a book that's into triple-diggits?
Let me tell you: It is indeed still coming out. Monthly. And it just celebrated it's 25th anniversary. The book is still going strong. It's currently heading into a whole new direction and it's a great jumping on point for new readers (although Erik [I]always[/I] makes sure to get new readers up to speed).
So, who's reading the book? Let's hear from you fellow finheads!
And for all those who are interested in checking it out: [B][url]www.savagedragon.com[/url][/B] just got a relaunch and provides interesting previews, reviews and insights into the book.
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Good to hear that the site is online again. I will check it out.
Savage Dragon is one of the last, if not the last UNPREDICTABLE superhero book out there. I mean, you know that no corporate Superhero is in danger, no one stays dead forever and you will see your hero always back to the way it was, after they changed him or her into something else. Not so with Savage Dragon. Anything can happen here!
And its written in real time, that means characters age!!
Its still a blast after all these years.
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[QUOTE=DanMad1977;3234517]
Savage Dragon is one of the last, if not the last UNPREDICTABLE superhero book out there. I mean, you know that no corporate Superhero is in danger, no one stays dead forever and you will see your hero always back to the way it was, after they changed him or her into something else. Not so with Savage Dragon. Anything can happen here!
And its written in real time, that means characters age!!
[/QUOTE]
Those are little things, but boy, this is the good stuff about comics. Even though I did read Image "superhero" comics in the '90s (WildC.A.T.S, Spawn etc.), I never gave Savage Dragon a proper try. I think you've just convinced me.
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Do it, its fun.
Mind, SD started with a 5 issue mini series, before it returned to a new number 1 and didnt renumber to this day.
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[QUOTE=Paulie Blade;3234660]I think you've just convinced me.[/QUOTE]
Awesome. Like I said, it's currently a good time to jump onboard. If you want to read the whole thing from the beginning the easiest and cheapest way are the black&white archive collections. There are a lot of color trades as well but unfortunately there are a couple of issues that have never been collected.
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I read it every issue. Erik is so nice too, really engages with his fans. Follow him on Facebook to see some interesting behind the scenes info about decisions he makes.
Regarding Invincible ending (sadly) I was reading an article recently that said Astro City is the longest running creator owned series still being published and I was like umm no
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Savage Dragon wouldn't work for me without Erik's direct involvement in it. I love his artwork, stories & sense of humor throughout the entire series.
Well, if he could somehow con Frank Cho into doing separate SD book I would be all over that. What say you to that Erik?
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He would never let anyone write or draw his main book. Maybe Ant some time in the future? or a spinoff, but not Savage Dragon. He made that clear.
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I'd maybe like to see a spinoff anthology one-shot or something, with various creators having a crack at some of Eriks characters. Not so much the main ongoing.
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Personally, i just want to see Erik draw Dragon, no one else. But sure, it could be fun for a one shot.
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Doesn't matter, there's a limited pool of professional artists that'd line up to draw things that appeared in the last issue.
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I just read 228.
Damn god, Erik is not holding back with the porn stuff. I am a grown up, i can handle that and the sex scenes are very innovativ, i have to say. As long as it doesnt get in the way of the storytelling, i am fine by it. Its the only book on the market that can deliver action, story, superheroes, porn and over the top violence all in one.
The only thing that disturbs me is the healing factor. I know that Malcom or Dragon can heal fast and all, but where is the danger? Its like seeing Wolverine fight, you just know that any wound will be healed in a few seconds or days, so there is no harm to the character.
On the plus side, Erik can draw all these crazy fights without limitations, because of the healing factor. Hmm...
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[QUOTE=DanMad1977;3299014]The only thing that disturbs me is the healing factor. I know that Malcom or Dragon can heal fast and all, but where is the danger? Its like seeing Wolverine fight, you just know that any wound will be healed in a few seconds or days, so there is no harm to the character. [/QUOTE]Do keep in mind--Malcolm's dad, the original "Savage Dragon"--is dead. So that healing factor only goes so far.
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Sure, but it goes veryyyy faaarrrr....:p
But its okay, so you can let loose on all these fights, and thats a plus.
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[QUOTE=DanMad1977;3299014]Erik is not holding back with the porn stuff.[/QUOTE]
That turned me away. I want the comic back to the way it was.
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Me too. I've dropped the title over that and the politics.
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The sex and the politics are things that come up every now and then. They are in my opinion not the main content of the book. The new, more pornographic display of sex is pretty uncommon for US superhero comics but so far it's been mainly comedy relief. It's something Erik wants to try and I applaud him for always trying new stuff. The book has been through so many changes - that's what it's all about and that's what make's it so great. So if you are saying you want it back to the way it was I wonder what exactly you are talking about. The Kurr era? When Malcom was a teenager? The comic strip era? The "Savage World" era? Dragon as a cop?
I really love the book and even if Erik did something I might not agree with I'd still enjoy it enough to read on and wait for a brighter day.
If you want to find out more about the book check out the revamped official website: [url]http://www.savagedragon.com[/url]
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Whats a good jumping on spot.I want to try it out
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[QUOTE=fin5;3347153]Whats a good jumping on spot.I want to try it out[/QUOTE]
Either issue 192 when Malcolm takes over or 150.
[QUOTE]
The new, more pornographic display of sex is pretty uncommon for US superhero comics but so far it's been mainly comedy relief.
[/QUOTE]
I think folks want it toned down and it was a bit too graphic the last two issues for me. It just makes it harder to sell to new readers with all that, otherwise the book is fine.
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i ment resent its on 230.I heard 227 is a good jumping on
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[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;3350740]
I think folks want it toned down and it was a bit too graphic the last two issues for me. It just makes it harder to sell to new readers with all that, otherwise the book is fine.[/QUOTE]
I want it taken out completely. The issues it was in edited and rereleased.
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[QUOTE=Cezar The Scribe;3355811]I want it taken out completely. The issues it was in edited and rereleased.[/QUOTE]
Just out of curiosity... why?
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[QUOTE=Paulie Blade;3357498]Just out of curiosity... why?[/QUOTE]
I'm curious about this too. It was never a children's book. It has always been extremely violent. I don't feel the sex is any worse than the violence.
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I'm fine with the violence, because in a superhero comics that will always be there.
Adult themes don't need to be there.
Marketed correctly and toned down a comic can reach more people and sell better.
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Sex is a normal, naturally occurring thing. Why is sex so bad to showcase but extreme violence and death are totally fine? That's so weird to me.
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Sex [I]is[/I] normal.
You know what isn't? Shooting a load so large it sends your wife flying across the room, ending up upside down with cum [I]pouring[/I] out of her vagina into her mouth. Let alone drawing that in your fucking comic. Neither of those things are normal, nor are they a healthy depiction of a normal, natural act practiced by adults.
I have no problem with nudity or sex in comics, but this was the kind of vulgar nonsense a 13 year old would draw and think, 'man, that's funny!'. Guess what? It wasn't. It was juvenile, though.
So yeah, I can see why people would have objections to that in a comic that's never been like that for the last 200+ issues.
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[QUOTE=Greg;3360449]Sex is a normal, naturally occurring thing. Why is sex so bad to showcase but extreme violence and death are totally fine? That's so weird to me.[/QUOTE]
First off, it's Erik Larsen's comic. His comic, his rules.
Secondly, Larsen has made it abundantly clear that his comic isn't high art. His comic is exploitative escapist fiction based on his childhood fantasies. So complaining that his comic is escapist entertainment from the mind of a 13 year old is as stupid as complaining that the Walking Dead has zombies in it.
Lastly, Stefan spelled it out perfectly when he said, "It's something Erik wants to try and I applaud him for always trying new stuff. The book has been through so many changes - that's what it's all about and that's what make's it so great. I really love the book and even if Erik did something I might not agree with I'd still enjoy it enough to read on and wait for a brighter day." Even though the porn wasn't there before, Stefan makes it clear that Erik is about trying new stuff that'll get a reaction out of his audience. And like Stefan, even though I don't agree with him, I applaud him for having the balls to put it in there while other creators wouldn't have the balls to take chances with their comic.
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[QUOTE=Joker;3360798]Sex [I]is[/I] normal.
You know what isn't? Shooting a load so large it sends your wife flying across the room, ending up upside down with cum [I]pouring[/I] out of her vagina into her mouth. Let alone drawing that in your fucking comic. Neither of those things are normal, nor are they a healthy depiction of a normal, natural act practiced by adults.
I have no problem with nudity or sex in comics, but this was the kind of vulgar nonsense a 13 year old would draw and think, 'man, that's funny!'. Guess what? It wasn't. It was juvenile, though.
So yeah, I can see why people would have objections to that in a comic that's never been like that for the last 200+ issues.[/QUOTE]
If this kind of stuff was in the Savage Dragon comic when I was reading it in the mid 90's as a teenager, I would have been elated and it would have been my favorite comic. 20 or so years later, the novelty is gone. Yeah, once upon a time before my access to the internet, if I wanted to see boobs and gore I read Savage Dragon and Lady Death or something, but I have long since discovered porn and actual sex, so I don't need comics for that kind of illicit material. I can appreciate that for the last 25 years, Larsen did a comic that was exactly what he wanted with little to no compromises, but in that time, the things that I wanted have changed. I can also appreciate that suddenly the comic is showing nudity and ejaculation when it hasn't for 25 years, it might be off-putting for people who have stuck with it this long.
Also, I think Malcom is a fucking boring character, but that's a whole other conversation.
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[QUOTE=Coal Tiger;3361581]If this kind of stuff was in the Savage Dragon comic when I was reading it in the mid 90's as a teenager, I would have been elated and it would have been my favorite comic. 20 or so years later, the novelty is gone. Yeah, once upon a time before my access to the internet, if I wanted to see boobs and gore I read Savage Dragon and Lady Death or something, but I have long since discovered porn and actual sex, so I don't need comics for that kind of illicit material. I can appreciate that for the last 25 years, Larsen did a comic that was exactly what he wanted with little to no compromises, but in that time, the things that I wanted have changed. I can also appreciate that suddenly the comic is showing nudity and ejaculation when it hasn't for 25 years, it might be off-putting for people who have stuck with it this long.
Also, I think Malcom is a fucking boring character, but that's a whole other conversation.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I don't think there's anything wrong with Cezar or anyone else having a problem with the sex elements in the story. Or any other elements that make them uncomfortable (like politics).
It's just utterly idiotic to complain that Savage Dragon features juvenile story elements only a teen would find cool. Erik has made it abundantly clear that Savage Dragon, both the character and the story, are his childhood fantasies come to life. While he mixes elements to satisfy his adult self, much of it is the mixing of elements to satisfy the juvenile kid within him, since the character is something based on his juvenile fantasies. If you've been reading it for 200+ issues, you would know this.
How can you have been following along for 200+ issues of SD and just now wake up and say, "Hey, this story features elements that are extremely juvenile. Where did that come from?"? That's as stupid as reading the Walking Dead for 170+ issues and saying, "Hey, this story features characters trying to survive a zombie apocalypse. Where did that come from?"
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Erik's freedom to do whatever he wants with his book has nothing to do with people's reactions to it.
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[QUOTE=Joker;3362229]Erik's freedom to do whatever he wants with his book has nothing to do with people's reactions to it.[/QUOTE]People read the book because I do whatever I want. They like that literally anything can be on the next page at any time. And, yes, that means sometimes there will be something you don't want to see. It's the nature of the beast.
I'm not taking dictation here. I'm not a DJ taking requests. It is what it is. And you can read it or not read it and no matter what you choose--I'm totally fine with that.
I understand that not everybody is going to read my book. And guess what? Everybody isn't going to read [I]any[/I] book. That's how freedom of choice works.
But it's not a porno book now any more than it was a team book now or a comic strip book or an all-splash pages book or a zombie book or a science fiction book or a romance book or any of the dozens of other things I touched on during its run.
Savage Dragon is my love letter to comics and I like a lot of different kinds of comics, from Miller Daredevil to Lee and Kirby Fantastic Four to Calvin & Hobbes to R Crumb's underground comics and a hundred other things. It's all there, tossed in a giant blender, set to purée.
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Right, and I think that's great.
The argument being made was that reactions to content are fucking stupid because blah blah blah (That specific poster isn't worth arguing with) but that isn't true. You do whatever you want, which is great, but people are going to have reactions to extreme content. You're aware of that, but someone else wasn't.
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This thread was mild-mannered until some nameless poster felt the need to start cursing and insulting the creator of SD. In post number 27, he was the one who felt the need to start cursing with comments like "let alone in your fucking comic". Everyone else who disagreed with his work was even tempered.
But now that poster is trying to pretend like comments such as, "only a 13 year old would find funny" and "it's juvenile though" were not meant to be insulting toward Larsen. Good job, guy.
Can someone remind me again why this poster was banned? And why he was allowed to return?
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I just read the newest issue. Slowly, i warm up to the new location. I vote for a new supporting cast and a few good villains (who should live a bit longer before getting killed). The one in 229 was a good example of done right.
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[QUOTE=DanMad1977;3368017]I just read the newest issue. Slowly, i warm up to the new location. I vote for a new supporting cast and a few good villains (who should live a bit longer before getting killed). The one in 229 was a good example of done right.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. Much more interesting villains would help.
Some people say they find Malcolm a boring character. Fair enough. But the main character can be absolutely boring and the story can still sell. Look at James Bond. Does James Bond have an interesting personality? Nope. James Bond is probably the most boring popular series character of all time. The only things that make James Bond interesting are the locations, the girls, the gadgets, and the villains. Nothing about James Bond is interesting. Even the famous James Bond quotes like "Bond. James Bond." and "Shaken. Not stirred." are boring quotes. They are only memorable because of Sean Connery's accent. The quotes themselves are dead boring. There have been more than half a dozen actors playing James Bond and none of them managed to make the character himself interesting. That's why Daniel Craig can play the character without changing facial expression. How can you change the facial expression of a character who doesn't have a personality?
So if James Bond himself isn't interesting, what characters makes his stories interesting? The Bond girls? No. They're just eye candy. It's the villains. Without the eccentric villains supplying outlandish adventures, nobody would be interested in James Bond's stories.
So a story can have a boring main character as long as there is one cool villain to keep the story going. So you're right when you say the story needs good villains that last longer. All the talk about Malcolm being a boring character would be gone if the story had some really cool villains.
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Absolutely.
I wonder what will happen on Glums planet. The girls looking for a solution to get Dragon back? Thats exciting, even if i dont believe in a return of the old Dragon.
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[QUOTE=Joker;3360798]Sex [I]is[/I] normal.
You know what isn't? Shooting a load so large it sends your wife flying across the room, ending up upside down with cum [I]pouring[/I] out of her vagina into her mouth. Let alone drawing that in your fucking comic. Neither of those things are normal, nor are they a healthy depiction of a normal, natural act practiced by adults. [/QUOTE]Nobody argued that things like that are normal in [I]our[/I] world--but this [I]isn't[/I] our world. You might as well bitch about characters flying or surviving having been smashed through a tree or regrow body parts. None of that sort of thing is "normal" but the book isn't set in a real world and normal sex is--well--normal. There's really no reason to depict normal. Normal is uninteresting. Normal is banal. Normal is dull. Normal is boring. What would even be the point in depicting "normal" sex in a superhero comic book? What a letdown that would be--[I]oh, you mean it's the same as when I awkwardly do it? Who cares?[/I]
[QUOTE=Joker;3360798]I have no problem with nudity or sex in comics, but this was the kind of vulgar nonsense a 13 year old would draw and think, 'man, that's funny!'. Guess what? It wasn't. It was juvenile, though.
So yeah, I can see why people would have objections to that in a comic that's never been like that for the last 200+ issues.[/QUOTE]It's had sexiness throughout though. Issue #17 had Dragon and Rapture naked in a shower. It's not as though it was a kids' book even early on. I was getting mail from younger readers telling me that their parents flipped out when they saw issues 25 years ago--so don't even pretend that this was Archie--because it was not.
As far as humor goes--that's subjective. One person sees the Three Stooges and thinks they're hilarious--others think it couldn't be more stupid. Who's "right"? That depends on who you ask. Some people find R. Crumb's work super offensive--others think he's a genius and his comics are brilliant.
Buy what you like--don't buy what you don't like.
Not every comic book is for you nor should it be. I don't walk out of my local store with armloads of comics every week. I don't love every book. I don't even love every [I]Image[/I] book.
And everything is hit and miss. I don't love every issue and every page of the books I do like uniformly. There are issues I love and issues I don't and when there get to be more [I]don't[/I] issues than [I]do[/I] issues I start having second thoughts about supporting a title.
In any case--this isn't the book's bold, new direction or anything. There'll be issues like that and issues nothing like that. I'm not stuck in some rut where I'm forced to repeat myself every month. The book can change completely at my whim. Characters come and go.
You can read it or not read it. Those are your two options. That's where your decision-making comes into play. I get to decide what does and doesn't go in the book.
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I recall when I was initially reading SD, everything was pretty PG-13 in terms of sex and language. I'm sure there was no external force keeping the content at a certain age level, but at some point it went from basic cable to HBO and I'm curious about how that decision happened.
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[QUOTE=Cezar The Scribe;3358830]I'm fine with the violence, because in a superhero comics that will always be there.
Adult themes don't need to be there.
Marketed correctly and toned down a comic can reach more people and sell better.[/QUOTE]
So Erik should pander to the entitlement crew?
I can name a lot of books that are good reads but are viewed as PUBLIC ENEMY NUMBER ONE because folks take issue with the sex, skin color and sexual identity of the leads. Some for FALSE claims of too much politics in books. Despite the complainers never reading them.
Those same books like Erik's that are not welcomed at some comic book stores but find audiences elsewhere.
This was not meant to be a kid's book. NOT at all.
It shows a character doing what Batman and friends are NOT allowed to do-GROW UP.
He's not being hailed as the greatest blank at the expense of others like some guy name Hal Jordan nor Mary Sue teammates like Bruce Wayne.
He's not stuck in man vs monster storylines like a guy named Victor Stone.
He's a person with a job, family and opinions.