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The Gwen clone from Spectacular Spider Man Annual #8 is still walking around the MU. They should have her be the one that slept with Norman.
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[QUOTE=shooshoomanjoe;5150471]The Gwen clone from Spectacular Spider Man Annual #8 is still walking around the MU. They should have her be the one that slept with Norman.[/QUOTE]
Joyce Delaney "died" in Spider-Island: Deadly Foes.
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[QUOTE=Ozymandias;5150693]Joyce Delaney "died" in Spider-Island: Deadly Foes.[/QUOTE]
Either way, they should retcon her being the mother of the Grey Goblin.
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[QUOTE=shooshoomanjoe;5151207]Either way, they should retcon her being the mother of the Grey Goblin.[/QUOTE]
I agree with you. It is distasteful, furthermore, it tarnishes the original story "The Night Gwen Stacy Died". The entire purpose of that tale was that Green Goblin (indirectly) caused the death of someone Peter cared about deeply simply because Peter cared about them deeply, no motivation aside from spite on Osborn's part was required. Before the Spider Office of the day settled on Gwen they bantered around several other names including Aunt May and even J. Jonah Jameson (imagine that)! "Sins Past" subtracts from the narrative of "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" by adding unnecessary layers, and worse yet, by implying the sacrificial narrative victim sort of "had it coming".
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[QUOTE=Celgress;5151224]I agree with you. It is distasteful, furthermore, it tarnishes the original story "The Night Gwen Stacy Died". The entire purpose of that tale was that [B]Green Goblin (indirectly) caused the death of someone Peter cared about[/B] deeply simply because Peter cared about them deeply, no motivation aside from spite on Osborn's part was required. Before the Spider Office of the day settled on Gwen they bantered around several other names including Aunt May and even J. Jonah Jameson (imagine that)! "Sins Past" subtracts from the narrative of "The Night Gwen Stacy Died" by adding unnecessary layers, and worse yet, by implying the sacrificial narrative victim sort of "had it coming".[/QUOTE]
"Indirectly"?
While you probably didn't mean anything by it, it always annoys me whenever people imply that Peter is more to blame for Gwen's death than GG is.
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[QUOTE=PCN24454;5151297]"Indirectly"?
While you probably didn't mean anything by it, it always annoys me whenever people imply that Peter is more to blame for Gwen's death than GG is.[/QUOTE]
In terms of the actual killing of Gwen Stacy, Norman is responsible. He rammed her body off the bridge with his glider, dropping her from a height, with the fall killing her.
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Peter's responsible for Gwen's death to the extent that he
A) Knew Norman was Goblin,
B) Didn't expose and turn him in when he had the chance, back in ASM#40.
C) Didn't do it again when he relapsed in ASM#96-98, and Peter got a second chance to do it.
Keeping Norman in civilian company, even by the logic of the reason in the original story (wanting to help Harry), can definitely be blamed on Peter. He endangered everyone he knew by doing that. To that extent, Peter does deserve blame for Gwen's death. But only in that instant.
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[QUOTE=PCN24454;5151297]"Indirectly"?
While you probably didn't mean anything by it, it always annoys me whenever people imply that Peter is more to blame for Gwen's death than GG is.[/QUOTE]
Oh, sorry, I didn't mean it in that way. I've stated before (on this very forum) I think Norman is 100% responsible for Gwen's untimely demise but people have jumped all over me for doing so, ironic, no? lol ;) Here is an outline of my reasoning process of why Norman, and Norman alone, is legally and morally guilty, rather than Peter -
If a criminal pushes a person in front of an oncoming subway train due to malice then a well-meaning cop tries to pull them to safety, only for them to be electrocuted by accidental contact with the third-rail, the criminal is (obviously) to blame for their death, not the cop. The criminal's actions started the deadly chain of events, putting it another way, the person was placed in mortal danger as a direct result of the initial shove.
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[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;5151311]In terms of the actual killing of Gwen Stacy, Norman is responsible. He rammed her body off the bridge with his glider, dropping her from a height, with the fall killing her.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]100760[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]100761[/ATTACH]
Peter's responsible for Gwen's death to the extent that he
A) Knew Norman was Goblin,
B) Didn't expose and turn him in when he had the chance, back in ASM#40.
C) Didn't do it again when he relapsed in ASM#96-98, and Peter got a second chance to do it.
Keeping Norman in civilian company, even by the logic of the reason in the original story (wanting to help Harry), can definitely be blamed on Peter. He endangered everyone he knew by doing that. To that extent, Peter does deserve blame for Gwen's death. But only in that instant.[/QUOTE]
Man the amnesia plot point hasn't aged well. By the way, does Norman still is unaware that Peter is Spider-Man or the spell is still working on him.
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[QUOTE=TheCape;5151348]Man the amnesia plot point hasn't aged well. By the way, does Norman still is unaware that Peter is Spider-Man or the spell is still working on him.[/QUOTE]
No, Norman remembers again, thanks to kidnapping Jameson after Peter unmasked to Jameson and Jameson accidentally blurting out a major clue while boasting that nothing Norman did would break Spider-Man, not even killing the woman he loved. Cue Go Down Swinging, Dan Slott's swan song on Spider-Man.
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[QUOTE=Huntsman Spider;5151362]No, Norman remembers again, thanks to kidnapping Jameson after Peter unmasked to Jameson and Jameson accidentally blurting out a major clue while boasting that nothing Norman did would break Spider-Man, not even killing the woman he loved. Cue Go Down Swinging, Dan Slott's swan song on Spider-Man.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, some day i migth get around finishing that run, i will need to bite the bullet at some point.
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[QUOTE=TheCape;5151366]Thanks, some day i migth get around finishing that run, i will need to bite the bullet at some point.[/QUOTE]
You're welcome. I'd recommend either Worldwide Vol. 9 or the Red Goblin collection.
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[QUOTE=TheCape;5151366]Thanks, some day i migth get around finishing that run, i will need to bite the bullet at some point.[/QUOTE]
At least it's a bullet coated in candy (Immonen).
BTW, I would go one step forward in blaming Peter. He had [B]three [/B]opportunities to finish the Goblin business (Spectacular Spider-man Magazine 2 is also earth 616) and he kept this information from his loved ones, not just Gwen. In essence, he took from them the option to protect themselves, with the excuse that revealing his identity would endanger others.
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[QUOTE=Ozymandias;5151905]At least it's a bullet coated in candy (Immonen).
BTW, I would go one step forward in blaming Peter. He had [B]three [/B]opportunities to finish the Goblin business (Spectacular Spider-man Magazine 2 is also earth 616) and he kept this information from his loved ones, not just Gwen. In essence, he took from them the option to protect themselves, with the excuse that revealing his identity would endanger others.[/QUOTE]
I'm curious about the people who blame Peter as much or even more so than they do Osborn for Gwen's demise. What would you have done differently as Peter Parker with the knowledge of Green Goblin's true identity knowing the can of worms revealing it would open? I think for good or ill Peter did the best he could in a no-win situation. But, what would others have done differently (keeping in mind the all but certain serious repercussions of outing Norman)?
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[QUOTE=Celgress;5152554]I'm curious about the people who blame Peter as much or even more so than they do Osborn for Gwen's demise. [/quote]
Speaking just for myself, I feel locating the story in Peter's actions leading up to that makes more sense than the asinine "neck snap" issue which is a joke gone out of hand. So with me, it's more about rerouting a tired existing discourse to something with more grounding in canon than really in an effort to blame Peter. Which is not to say that I don't think Peter should be called out.
Green Goblin killed Gwen when he didn't have to, and he did it to hurt Peter and as he says in "Go down swinging", all he wanted to do was to hurt Peter and break him, and if he knew that Peter cared so much about saving people, Goblin would have just set about killing as many random people as possible.
[quote]What would you have done differently as Peter Parker with the knowledge of Green Goblin's true identity knowing the can of worms revealing it would open?[/quote]
Check out, Chip Zdarsky and Mark Bagley's [I]Spider-Man: Life Story #1[/I].
[quote]I think for good or ill Peter did the best he could in a no-win situation.[/quote]
The situation presented in ASM#40 wasn't really "no-win". Norman had amnesia, Peter scored a win, and started a friendship with Harry and Gwen. He had a lot of freedom to control the narrative as it were.
[quote]But, what would others have done differently (keeping in mind the all but certain serious repercussions of outing Norman)?[/QUOTE]
Peter's actions in sparing Norman is ambiguous because in the short term it had beneficial results. Like there was this one story in the Lee-Romita Sr. run where Norman actually saves Gwen's life (and indeed you see that alluded to in SPIDER-MAN BLUE). So there are moments where sparing Norman did "pay it forward" as it were.
But that changes with "The Drug Trilogy". Peter had first hand proof and experience that Norman's amnesia a) wasn't permanent, b) he would relapse and relapse bad, c) he had plenty of Goblin resources on hand to fall back to, i.e. safehouses and so on. Norman on regaining his memory had intimate knowledge of Peter and his circle of friends. So Peter had endangered everyone around him and he had first hand experience of that backfiring on him. In real life if you know someone with a serious mental condition or sickness that could actively cause harm to people around you, it's your duty to stage an intervention or otherwise be an "enabler".
In that stage, the responsible thing for Peter would be to
a) Tell Harry Osborn about his father, this one I will admit was hard because Harry had drug issues and needed rehab and wasn't probably in a condition to stage an intervention by himself.
b) Tell Gwen his secret identity so that the person he loves is put on notice about the danger she could be in if she continued the relationship with him,
c) Sneak into Oscorp, dig up old files and stuff, and amass evidence and call an anonymous tip (i.e. Zdarsky-Bagley's [I]Life Story[/I]).
So I don't think Peter didn't have options.
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[QUOTE=Celgress;5152554]I'm curious about the people who blame Peter as much or even more so than they do Osborn for Gwen's demise. What would you have done differently as Peter Parker with the knowledge of Green Goblin's true identity knowing the can of worms revealing it would open? I think for good or ill Peter did the best he could in a no-win situation. But, what would others have done differently (keeping in mind the all but certain serious repercussions of outing Norman)?[/QUOTE]
What me or others would've done differently isn't the issue, as those courses of action might not be in accordance with what a super-hero could actually be shown in paper, to be doing in the 60's.
As for what he could've done... how about just keeping his distance? Not taking him as his landlord, going to work for him, becoming close friends with his only son, including him in his social life (you get the gist). Add to that, he absolutely should've notified Gwen, as soon as their relationship started to shape and he saw that Norman's amnesia wasn't a reliable shield (both things happening circa ASM #66-67). If not for anything else, to let her know what kind of friends her father entertained.
