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[QUOTE=Lee Stone;1844194]Justice League Dark had a superb writer, a fantastic artist and an amazing cast...
But it was just that: [I]JUSTICE LEAGUE[/I] Dark. It was sort of like Paris Hilton or Jessica Simpson trying to pass off as a mysterious and moody Morticia or Elvira with floodlights on a glitzy stage.
Sadly, with the talent and characters involved, I think it could have been one of the best Vertigo titles in years and may even still be running today. If only it [I]was[/I] a Vertigo book.[/QUOTE]
I don't think John and Zatanna's finger-tip sex or Shade's lonely freak-outs would've been any more finger-sexy or lonely freakier if it'd had a Vertigo stripe down the side of the cover.
But, then, some of the most "Vertigo" Hellblazer, Swamp Thing, and Doom Patrol weren't actually Vertigo runs. For me, the banner, the imprint, that's what feels like a sell, a gloss, more than anything.
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Does anybody know why Peter Milligan left Justice League Dark after the first arc and the crossover with I, Vampire anyhow? That's something I've wondered about since it happened.
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[QUOTE=Hilden B. Lade;1844218]Does anybody know why Peter Milligan left Justice League Dark after the first arc and the crossover with I, Vampire anyhow? That's something I've wondered about since it happened.[/QUOTE]
I believe Milligan was struggling with JLD because the confines of being a mainstream DCU title meant he wouldn't have the freedom to do the crazy stuff he's more known for, and it wasn't "mature readers" which also added another layer of restraint.
Rumor has it that DC shifted writers because they wanted JLD to be more 'super-heroey' and even less 'Vertigoey'. Probably to appeal to Justice League readers and mesh better in crossovers.
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[QUOTE=Lee Stone;1844251]I believe Milligan was struggling with JLD because the confines of being a mainstream DCU title meant he wouldn't have the freedom to do the crazy stuff he's more known for, and it wasn't "mature readers" which also added another layer of restraint.
Rumor has it that DC shifted writers because they wanted JLD to be more 'super-heroey' and even less 'Vertigoey'. Probably to appeal to Justice League readers and mesh better in crossovers.[/QUOTE]
I jumped ship an issue or two after Millgan was gone (a spell preventing magic was circumvented by [I]magic[/I] and John was being weirdly characterized). How did that work out? Did it mesh better? Did it actually work more superhero-y?
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[QUOTE=t hedge coke;1844206]I don't think John and Zatanna's finger-tip sex or Shade's lonely freak-outs would've been any more finger-sexy or lonely freakier if it'd had a Vertigo stripe down the side of the cover.
But, then, some of the most "Vertigo" Hellblazer, Swamp Thing, and Doom Patrol weren't actually Vertigo runs. For me, the banner, the imprint, that's what feels like a sell, a gloss, more than anything.[/QUOTE]
True... but if you think about it, Pre-Vertigo Hellblazer, Swamp Thing and Doom Patrol weren't forced to remind readers they co-existed with DC's superheroes.
DC didn't begin reigning in continuity until after Crisis, so Moore had a bit more freedom on Swamp Thing. And then Swamp Thing and Hellblazer were pretty much ignored by the DCU proper Post-Crisis. And once Morrison took over Doom Patrol they disappeared from the DCU landscape, as well.
And all three books were written for more mature readers.
The New52 incarnations felt too much like superheroes to me.
Oddly enough, the launch comic that felt the most Vertigo to me was Azzarello's Wonder Woman, which wasn't even a Dark title.
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[QUOTE=t hedge coke;1844266]I jumped ship an issue or two after Millgan was gone (a spell preventing magic was circumvented by [I]magic[/I] and John was being weirdly characterized). How did that work out? Did it mesh better? Did it actually work more superhero-y?[/QUOTE]
I really don't know as I bailed, too. I was on the fence with it about the time it was announced Milligan was leaving and I dropped it when I heard.
My local library has the first three trades and I've considered checking the rest of those issues out, however.
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Yes this is something I've long thought about as well. The DC/Vertigo shared universe & characters are a big reason why I'm a diehard DC fanboy. I know I'll be flamed hardcore for this but I personally feel Vertigo lost its appeal when DC transitioned it to creator owned only titles. I found Verttigo with the DCU ties to be very unique & once they pulled the plug on that I was no longer interested. I mean, I just really dug the idea of the DCU's fantasy & horror characters being in stories with mature & deep themes to be pretty badass.
I'm gonna say something really controversial again (& probably get flamed) but concerning current Vertigo & Image, I don't really find many of the titles by either to be that interesting. For me I think 2000AD publishes some of the best indie material ever. 2000AD was what helped to create Vertigo anyway (& subsequently influenced comics as a whole). IMO, if someone wants genre-fiction titles similar to the Vertigo of old then 2000AD is where it's at (though a lot of Dark Horse's titles like the Hellboy stuff is great too).
They're called "The Galaxy's Greatest Comic" for a reason. Outside of a few American writers (both comics & prose) I for some reason find British Sci-Fi to be more entertaining than most of the stuff from here in the States. Not sure why, I guess British writers are just more imaginative.
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It was never the sex or cursing that lead me to read Vertigo books - it was the assurance by the cover alone that inside was a story that wouldn't intellectually offend me.
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[QUOTE=Lee Stone;1844165]I really loved Vertigo at the beginning...
For me, it was defined by Neil Gaiman's Death and Sandman (and Books of Magic), Peter Milligan's Shade and Enigma, Nancy Collins' (and Alan Moore's) Swamp Thing, Garth Ennis' Hellblazer, Jamie Delano's (and Grant Morrison's) Animal Man, Rachel Pollack's (and Morrison's) Doom Patrol and Matt Wagner's Sandman Mystery Theatre.
And Chris Bachalo's work on Death and Shade was my favorite art during that phase.[/QUOTE]
Me too. Ennis' Hellblazer and Milligan's Shade (and Enigma, and Egypt, etc. etc.) were particularly the at the absolute top of the list for me, along with Sandman Mystery Theatre. But yeah, they were all good. I found a lot of those titles around the same time I discovered Milo Manara and Moebius and all sorts of other Heavy Metal magazine stuff, so it was kind of an explosive period for me all around. Good times.
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[QUOTE=Savage Savant;1845453]Yes this is something I've long thought about as well. The DC/Vertigo shared universe & characters are a big reason why I'm a diehard DC fanboy. I know I'll be flamed hardcore for this but I personally feel Vertigo lost its appeal when DC transitioned it to creator owned only titles. I found Verttigo with the DCU ties to be very unique & once they pulled the plug on that I was no longer interested. I mean, I just really dug the idea of the DCU's fantasy & horror characters being in stories with mature & deep themes to be pretty badass. [/QUOTE]
I think both avenues are awesome, and I want both. Milligan's work in Shade was amazing, but can you really imagine a comics world without his stuff in Enigma and the creator owned stuff he did? I really wish Vertigo would aggressively pursue *both* avenues.
But yes, I am really sad they are not doing the Vertigo extension of the DC universe anymore. Outside of Lucifer, that is.
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[QUOTE=Lee Stone;1844268]Oddly enough, the launch comic that felt the most Vertigo to me was Azzarello's Wonder Woman, which wasn't even a Dark title.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, that was a great run.
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[QUOTE=Lee Stone;1844194]I actually kinda liked Vertigo being in its own corner because it lent a more isolated feel to the stories, which is a necessary component of horror, mystery and thrillers.[/QUOTE]
Good point. And at the same time, you also got the feel that these were all taking place in the same Vergito-verse. That is what is missing for me from the current Vertigo lineup. Most of the current titles, like Sheriff of Babylon, are pretty awesome. But they don't have that sense of community that I got with, say, Books of Magic or Hellblazer...
So putting the Vertigo stamp on DC characters was cool in that sense too. Unlike Image, which is "merely" high quality stories for adults, you got high quality stories for adults that had a sense of community. That is what made Vertigo different from what Image is today, for me at least.
[QUOTE=Lee Stone;1844194]
Bringing them over to the DCU proper with New52 made them feel more to me like adventure stories and less atmospheric. Especially when they throw them into cross-overs.[/QUOTE]
Yes, definitely. Some of the superhero titles can tend to have a very simplistic "video game" feel to them, and I was worried that this would happen to the darker stuff once it was pulled back into the main universe. And that definitely did happen to some extent.
But you know, some of those titles were not nearly as bad as I thought they were going to be. New 52 Constantine was actually not all that bad for a while. The art in particular was really good on a lot of those early New 52 Constantine series.
I'd even go so far as to say that the New 52 Constantine series was actually better than some of the story arcs I read in Hellblazer. Not better than, say, Ennis Hellblazer. But in all honesty, some Hellblazer after Ennis left could get a little boring sometimes... And the New 52 Constantine, for all of its faults, was actually better than some of the more boring moments in the Vertigo title.
And both Swamp Thing and Animal Man were pretty awesome in the new 52 setting, I thought. Yeah, the crossovers weakened them, but still, you could really feel the dedication to making those titles awesome in the first few story arcs.
[QUOTE=Lee Stone;1844194]
Justice League Dark had a superb writer, a fantastic artist and an amazing cast...
But it was just that: [I]JUSTICE LEAGUE[/I] Dark. It was sort of like Paris Hilton or Jessica Simpson trying to pass off as a mysterious and moody Morticia or Elvira with floodlights on a glitzy stage.
Sadly, with the talent and characters involved, I think it could have been one of the best Vertigo titles in years and may even still be running today. If only it [I]was[/I] a Vertigo book.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I stopped reading Justice League Dark after Milligan left. I was *so* excited about Shade coming back that I got really deflated when he and Milligan left. I do applaud DC for trying to make the book accessible to mainstream Justice League fans. That is a commendable thing to do. If I were, say, 15 years old and totally addicted to superheroes again, I would totally have loved to have a magic based superhero team with ties to Justice League. Unfortunately for me, I'm just not in that target market anymore....
So I have mixed feelings about what happened with the Dark Universe in New 52. Part of me liked some aspects of it (the art in Constantine and the story in Swamp Thing and Animal Man) and part of me also really liked seeing the editors try to make that stuff accessible for mainstream superhero audiences. But a big part of me also felt like things got too simplified and a bit dull when they got sucked back into the superhero universe, and an even bigger part of me feels like the entire thing eventually wound up flopping, as exemplified by the cancelling of i Vampire even though it was awesome and the changing of writers and mood on Justice League Dark.