Hulk: on the property damage alone.
Captain America on the account that most people from his time period were really racist, sexist etc. Merely dumping a person from that time period to this would take a lot of adjustment on their part.
Hulk: on the property damage alone.
Captain America on the account that most people from his time period were really racist, sexist etc. Merely dumping a person from that time period to this would take a lot of adjustment on their part.
Definitely either versions of any one [B]Ghost Rider[/B]:
[img]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/9/90/Ghost_Rider_Vol_2_63.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/321?cb=20080815015758[/img][img]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/c/c2/Ghost_Rider_Vol_3_23.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/312?cb=20091031214424[/img][img]https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/marveldatabase/images/4/40/Spirits_of_Vengeance_Vol_1_12.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/320?cb=20060525144005[/img]
Sentry. Easily.
How about Reed Richards? Look at all the problems he has brought to the Marvel Universe with his science experiments and other crap.
Iron Man and Captain Marvel - Civil War 1 & 2. In reality they would be villains
Jean Grey, Xavier and Emma as telepaths would also be seen as villains
I’ve always been stupidly intrigued by Dr Strange. He’s the sorceror supreme...the most powerful magician/beings in several realms/dimensions. From an outside POV, surely he is a big threat?
[QUOTE=mathew101281;4908497]Hulk: on the property damage alone.
Captain America on the account that most people from his time period were really racist, sexist etc. Merely dumping a person from that time period to this would take a lot of adjustment on their part.[/QUOTE]
*sigh* This again. I’m so tired. The “all people from the 40’s had to have been racist” argument falls apart when you consider the fact that two of the reigning kings of using fiction/pop culture to fight for equality, re: Gene Roddenberry (creator of Star Trek) and Jack Kirby (co-creator of Cap, the original X-Men, and Black Panther) were both from the 40’s. In fact what do these two men have in common other than the themes in their body of work? They both served in WW2.
BTW Mr. (Fred) Rogers was also “from the 40’s”. Just saying.
Moreover Cap was not created to be an accurate portrayal of life in the 40’s. Simon and Kirby based him on the Golem of Prague mythology. The A on Cap’s helmet? In Hebrew it is the letter א, which represents “truth”. In the golem of Prague mythology that activated the golem. Steve’s origin is also reminiscent of the golem of Prague story. The golem was molded from raw material (a young, frail Steve Rogers) but through magic (the super soldier serum) became a strong and formidable defender of the Jewish community. The golem had a star on his chest, just like Cap does. There are other parallels as well. Thus Steve was never meant to be this modern day representative of the Greatest Generation, that was never his creators’ intent. He was always meant to be a champion brought to life for the explicit reason of defending the marginalized.
More on that here: [url]https://blog.nli.org.il/en/captain_america/[/url]
[QUOTE=capandkirby;4908595]*sigh* This again. I’m so tired. The “all people from the 40’s had to have been racist” argument falls apart when you consider the fact that two of the reigning kings of using fiction/pop culture to fight for equality, re: Gene Roddenberry (creator of Star Trek) and Jack Kirby (co-creator of Cap, the original X-Men, and Black Panther) were both from the 40’s. In fact what do these two men have in common other than the themes in their body of work? They both served in WW2.
BTW Mr. (Fred) Rogers was also “from the 40’s”. Just saying.
Moreover Cap was not created to be an accurate portrayal of life in the 40’s. Simon and Kirby based him on the Golem of Prague mythology. The A on Cap’s helmet? In Hebrew it is the letter א, which represents “truth”. In the golem of Prague mythology that activated the golem. Steve’s origin is also reminiscent of the golem of Prague story. The golem was molded from raw material (a young, frail Steve Rogers) but through magic (the super soldier serum) became a strong and formidable defender of the Jewish community. The golem had a star on his chest, just like Cap does. There are other parallels as well. Thus Steve was never meant to be this modern day representative of the Greatest Generation, that was never his creators’ intent. He was always meant to be a champion brought to life for the explicit reason of defending the marginalized.
More on that here: [url]https://blog.nli.org.il/en/captain_america/[/url][/QUOTE]
Nicely put. Thank you.
Probably most of them. Heck, in universe most of the major heroes have been seen threats at one time or another.
Capt. Marvel would not surprise me.
[QUOTE=mathew101281;4908497]Hulk: on the property damage alone.
Captain America on the account that most people from his time period were really racist, sexist etc. Merely dumping a person from that time period to this would take a lot of adjustment on their part.[/QUOTE]
I have never seen any evidence of Captain America being any of these things. He had Falcon as his partner. Has worked well with several female heroes early on, such and The Wasp, and Scarlet Witch. He has always spoken about truth and justice and the American ideal that all men are created equal. Just because you are from the 40's doesnt make you a bigot.
What about Punisher, Wolverine and Deadpool? A body count would be a good way to qualify yeah?
[QUOTE=babyblob;4908726]I have never seen any evidence of Captain America being any of these things. He had Falcon as his partner. Has worked well with several female heroes early on, such and The Wasp, and Scarlet Witch. He has always spoken about truth and justice and the American ideal that all men are created equal. Just because you are from the 40's doesnt make you a bigot.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. My grandparents were born in the 20s and were not racist.
When I stop and think about it there are many heroes that while not villains are so different that the public would distrust them a great deal and so they may be seen as more villainous then they really are.
Mutants would fall under this category.
I would think most aliens would as well. It amazes me how accepting people are to out of world visitors.
I would think robots, androids, and Ai heroes as well. Like Vision. I mean he tried to take over the computers of the world. That would make me not trust him.
Definitely, Vision is the son of Ultron after all.
I agree that anyone who kills would be seen as a villain, Punisher would be infamous as a serial killer, not heroically famous as an enforcer who wipes out gangs.
[QUOTE=babyblob;4908792]When I stop and think about it there are many heroes that while not villains are so different that the public would distrust them a great deal and so they may be seen as more villainous then they really are.
Mutants would fall under this category.
I would think most aliens would as well. It amazes me how accepting people are to out of world visitors.
I would think robots, androids, and Ai heroes as well. Like Vision. I mean he tried to take over the computers of the world. That would make me not trust him.[/QUOTE]
How about Deities, or characters that get their powers from Deities?
Any superpowered individual claiming to be a God or claiming their powers come from a pantheon of Gods, is going to stir up all sorts of problems by their very presence.
[QUOTE=Digifiend;4909256]Definitely, Vision is the son of Ultron after all.
I agree that anyone who kills would be seen as a villain, Punisher would be infamous as a serial killer, not heroically famous as an enforcer who wipes out gangs.[/QUOTE]
Punisher would likely not change too much in how he’s viewed, imho.
Law enforcement would officially see him as a him as a serial killer/huge threat, criminals would crap themselves at the thought of him, and ppl in general would be divided, w. some cheering him on, while others condemned his actions.
Wolverine is a literal mass murderer. He also teaches children.
Deadpool
Silver Surfer
Maybe Blade and other vampire hunters, there would be people saying that vampires are a minority and vampire hunters are bigots.
captain america and marvel outside of america, hulk, stark would get plenty of communist memes
[QUOTE=Doombot;4909277]Wolverine is a literal mass murderer. He also teaches children.[/QUOTE]
In real life The entire mutants body swings from being a terrorists group to an organization that recruits child soldiers
[QUOTE=Cronus;4908753]What about Punisher, Wolverine and Deadpool? A body count would be a good way to qualify yeah?[/QUOTE]QFT.
Hell even in-universe, Punisher is considered a criminal.
[QUOTE=Riv86672;4909260]How about Deities, or characters that get their powers from Deities? Any superpowered individual claiming to be a God or claiming their powers come from a pantheon of Gods, is going to stir up all sorts of problems by their very presence.[/QUOTE]
The historian in me thinks that if the deities really existed, most of the current world religions would be taken down several pegs. They wouldn't have the same influence on the world. I'm not buying that at some point all of the Skyfathers would casually step aside just so that humanity could foster its own concept of God. That goes against everything that we know about the mythical deities across all pantheons. They insisted on interacting with the human population. In some cases, the very existence and power wielded by some deities hinged on the number of adherents that worshipped them. I find it hard to believe that someone like Zeus would give that up ever, let alone some of the more arrogant and darker gods like Set. These gods would have done everything in their power to ensure that no other definition of divinity existed, whether we're talking the Buddha, the Prophet Muhammad, the Christ, or any other divine entity. That would have been the first Secret War, if not the first World Wars, and it would have started several millennia ago and continued to the present age. Humanity would be caught in the middle, each person likely taking sides according to whichever deity held sway over their family. So yes, some gods would be viewed as villains, no question. But others as benevolent beings...so long as they were worshipped.
This is why Thor #300 was such an awesome book. It established that all of Earth's pantheon of gods were far below the Celestials in terms of unfettered power and authority. And it hammered home the point that the reason why the various pantheons did not interfere in the development of humanity was because of the Celestial decree. But alas, current writers have turned that established canon on its ear. Now we have any number of beings easily trouncing Celestials and their decrees as easily as you or I brush aside packaging peanuts.
[QUOTE=JudicatorPrime;4909544]The historian in me thinks that if the deities really existed, most of the current world religions would be taken down several pegs. They wouldn't have the same influence on the world. I'm not buying that at some point all of the Skyfathers would casually step aside just so that humanity could foster its own concept of God. That goes against everything that we know about the mythical deities across all pantheons. They insisted on interacting with the human population. In some cases, the very existence and power wielded by some deities hinged on the number of adherents that worshipped them. I find it hard to believe that someone like Zeus would give that up ever, let alone some of the more arrogant and darker gods like Set. These gods would have done everything in their power to ensure that no other definition of divinity existed, whether we're talking the Buddha, the Prophet Muhammad, the Christ, or any other divine entity. That would have been the first Secret War, if not the first World Wars, and it would have started several millennia ago and continued to the present age. Humanity would be caught in the middle, each person likely taking sides according to whichever deity held sway over their family. So yes, some gods would be viewed as villains, no question. But others as benevolent beings...so long as they were worshipped.
This is why Thor #300 was such an awesome book. It established that all of Earth's pantheon of gods were far below the Celestials in terms of unfettered power and authority. And it hammered home the point that the reason why the various pantheons did not interfere in the development of humanity was because of the Celestial decree. But alas, current writers have turned that established canon on its ear. Now we have any number of beings easily trouncing Celestials and their decrees as easily as you or I brush aside packaging peanuts.[/QUOTE]
The Celestials even noticing anything the Avengers or other heroes do is ridiculous, forget individual Celestials getting killed or beaten on earth. The Celestials caused the Great Cataclysm because they didn't like how an experiment with the Deviants was going, what do you think they would do if one of their own had been killed here? I don't like any of the current stuff with the Celestials, The First Firmament, The Fallen, The Horde etc. I may be alone, but I feel these things have diminished the grandeur and power of the Celestials.
[QUOTE=Doombot;4909569]The Celestials even noticing anything the Avengers or other heroes do is ridiculous, forget individual Celestials getting killed or beaten on earth. The Celestials caused the Great Cataclysm because they didn't like how an experiment with the Deviants was going, what do you think they would do if one of their own had been killed here? I don't like any of the current stuff with the Celestials, The First Firmament, The Fallen, The Horde etc. I may be alone, but I feel these things have diminished the grandeur and power of the Celestials.[/QUOTE]
I definitely agree with you here. If the choice was mine, the Celestials would rate below TOAA and just above the Phoenix Force as far as the most powerful proponents of life in the omniverse. And no, it would not be possible for even the most powerful reality warper, like Franklin Richards, to ever be considered a Celestial. There would be an element of unassailability to Celestials such that certainly no mortal being, mechanical, mystical or natural force, or any other living or inanimate thing could ever attain Celestial status. Any battles with them would need to involve Reason, because no manner of force would work. But obviously Marvel sees it differently.
[QUOTE=JudicatorPrime;4909773]I definitely agree with you here. If the choice was mine, the Celestials would rate below TOAA and just above the Phoenix Force as far as the most powerful proponents of life in the omniverse. And no, it would not be possible for even the most powerful reality warper, like Franklin Richards, to ever be considered a Celestial. There would be an element of unassailability to Celestials such that certainly no mortal being, mechanical, mystical or natural force, or any other living or inanimate thing could ever attain Celestial status. Any battles with them would need to involve Reason, because no manner of force would work. But obviously Marvel sees it differently.[/QUOTE]
I couldn't agree more. The way you have described is essentially how I saw them growing up, but in the last ten years or so, Marvel Editorial seems to have stopped caring.
Interesting discussion, but to swing it back on topic, Spider-Man, simply because he's a human creepy-crawly and arachnophobia is all too common in the real world. The media would have a field day portraying him in the worst light possible, especially against the likes of "upstanding citizens" like Wilson Fisk and Norman Osborn (no real-world billionaires' names used here for the sake of not ruffling feathers).
Black Panther.
[QUOTE=MouserGrey;4910963]Black Panther.[/QUOTE]
That's actually a very good point, in light of real-world racism and such.
[QUOTE=capandkirby;4908595]*sigh* This again. I’m so tired. The “all people from the 40’s had to have been racist” argument falls apart when you consider the fact that two of the reigning kings of using fiction/pop culture to fight for equality, re: Gene Roddenberry (creator of Star Trek) and Jack Kirby (co-creator of Cap, the original X-Men, and Black Panther) were both from the 40’s. In fact what do these two men have in common other than the themes in their body of work? They both served in WW2.
BTW Mr. (Fred) Rogers was also “from the 40’s”. Just saying.
Moreover Cap was not created to be an accurate portrayal of life in the 40’s. Simon and Kirby based him on the Golem of Prague mythology. The A on Cap’s helmet? In Hebrew it is the letter א, which represents “truth”. In the golem of Prague mythology that activated the golem. Steve’s origin is also reminiscent of the golem of Prague story. The golem was molded from raw material (a young, frail Steve Rogers) but through magic (the super soldier serum) became a strong and formidable defender of the Jewish community. The golem had a star on his chest, just like Cap does. There are other parallels as well. Thus Steve was never meant to be this modern day representative of the Greatest Generation, that was never his creators’ intent. He was always meant to be a champion brought to life for the explicit reason of defending the marginalized.
More on that here: [url]https://blog.nli.org.il/en/captain_america/[/url][/QUOTE]
Well put Capandkirby. I too see Cap as above all interpretations of a 40’s character, and more to do with the higher concerns.
Daredevil, both before and after his ID was revealed.
Before, he's a brutal vigilante working in the shadows against those he deems criminal. How Spidey has a worse rep, I'll never know.
Once outed as Matt, he's a ruthless criminal who manipulates the justice system to his advantage.
I think just about any superhero with a secret identity would be seen as villainous or at least less trustworthy than their peers whose identities are public.
Also the Hulk.
[QUOTE=The Cool Thatguy;4915356]Daredevil, both before and after his ID was revealed.
Before, he's a brutal vigilante working in the shadows against those he deems criminal. How Spidey has a worse rep, I'll never know.
Once outed as Matt, he's a ruthless criminal who manipulates the justice system to his advantage.[/QUOTE]
Well for starters, Daredevil doesn't have a media mogul personally gunning for him. In fact, he has at least one friend in the press who sticks up for him.
[QUOTE=capandkirby;4908595]*sigh* This again. I’m so tired. The “all people from the 40’s had to have been racist” argument falls apart when you consider the fact that two of the reigning kings of using fiction/pop culture to fight for equality, re: Gene Roddenberry (creator of Star Trek) and Jack Kirby (co-creator of Cap, the original X-Men, and Black Panther) were both from the 40’s. In fact what do these two men have in common other than the themes in their body of work? They both served in WW2.
BTW Mr. (Fred) Rogers was also “from the 40’s”. Just saying.
Moreover Cap was not created to be an accurate portrayal of life in the 40’s. Simon and Kirby based him on the Golem of Prague mythology. The A on Cap’s helmet? In Hebrew it is the letter א, which represents “truth”. In the golem of Prague mythology that activated the golem. Steve’s origin is also reminiscent of the golem of Prague story. The golem was molded from raw material (a young, frail Steve Rogers) but through magic (the super soldier serum) became a strong and formidable defender of the Jewish community. The golem had a star on his chest, just like Cap does. There are other parallels as well. Thus Steve was never meant to be this modern day representative of the Greatest Generation, that was never his creators’ intent. He was always meant to be a champion brought to life for the explicit reason of defending the marginalized.
More on that here: [url]https://blog.nli.org.il/en/captain_america/[/url][/QUOTE]
Well said.
I'd also add that the very basics of Cap is why he shouldn't be made into the Millar paraody he was in Ultimates.
Cap was created by two Jewish writers to be the pinnacle of the Aryan ideal, to punch Nazis in the face before America knew we needed to punch Nazis in the face.
I'm a little surprised that nobody came up with Moon Knight yet. Especially when he took to branding people's foreheads with a red-hot crescent device.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]95094[/ATTACH]
I don't think he would classify as a villain, per se, but I imagine almost all highly religious people (with the possible exception of Buddhists and Zoroastrians) would take issue with somebody calling themselves a Thunder God.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]95096[/ATTACH]
[QUOTE=capandkirby;4908595]*sigh* This again. I’m so tired. The “all people from the 40’s had to have been racist” argument falls apart when you consider the fact that two of the reigning kings of using fiction/pop culture to fight for equality, re: Gene Roddenberry (creator of Star Trek) and Jack Kirby (co-creator of Cap, the original X-Men, and Black Panther) were both from the 40’s. In fact what do these two men have in common other than the themes in their body of work? They both served in WW2.
BTW Mr. (Fred) Rogers was also “from the 40’s”. Just saying.
Moreover Cap was not created to be an accurate portrayal of life in the 40’s. Simon and Kirby based him on the Golem of Prague mythology. The A on Cap’s helmet? In Hebrew it is the letter א, which represents “truth”. In the golem of Prague mythology that activated the golem. Steve’s origin is also reminiscent of the golem of Prague story. The golem was molded from raw material (a young, frail Steve Rogers) but through magic (the super soldier serum) became a strong and formidable defender of the Jewish community. The golem had a star on his chest, just like Cap does. There are other parallels as well. Thus Steve was never meant to be this modern day representative of the Greatest Generation, that was never his creators’ intent. He was always meant to be a champion brought to life for the explicit reason of defending the marginalized.
More on that here: [url]https://blog.nli.org.il/en/captain_america/[/url][/QUOTE]US Civil Rights legislation would not have seen the light of day without old, white men from the 1940s. They didn't start the movement, or suffer its consequences, but they helped it along.