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Star Trek: All of Em
So, spinning out of this dead thread that you wont be able to see in a couple of weeks...
[url]http://oldforums.comicbookresources.com/showthread.php?463470-Star-Trek-TNG/page8[/url]
I'm watching more of TNG, I have some questions. First, while I'm still not particulary interested in the other characters (Though Data as Sherlock Holmes was fun, even if they did got some things wrong in their ''exact duplicate'') I really like Picard. He seems like he would have been a great role model for kids and teens watching back then and it's a privilage I wish I had. Also I saw that gay episode (Outcast) and while anvilicious for today's standards it's kind of ballsy for the 1980's family friendly show, kind of cool that even 30 years later Roddenberry was still ahead of his time.
But: Why are kids in the Enterprise? Even as an exploratory vessel that's hugely irresponsable.
And what exactly is Troi's job? I get she is an empath, which leads to her stating the obvious a lot (I feel that guy with the frowny face is angry, Captain) but she mostly seems to act as a Space Psychologist, which while cool, doesn't seem to justify her position on the bridge.
There are already a couple of answers there... but this is to get the conversation going.
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I was recently rewatching the show too. I notice during dangerous situations they don't show any children around, unless the plot is about the children being in danger. Troi became a kind of lie detector after awhile, but most of the time it didn't seem like her job was related to being on the bridge.
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[QUOTE=Frog_Girl;23776]I was recently rewatching the show too. I notice during dangerous situations they don't show any children around, unless the plot is about the children being in danger. Troi became a kind of lie detector after awhile, but most of the time it didn't seem like her job was related to being on the bridge.[/QUOTE]
Maybe She's there to help in negotiations, thinking back, facial expressions for the species in Earth vary greatly, they are practically the opposite in some cases, particulary in Happiness vs Agression (The way Chimps show anger is sometimes confused as a laugh or a smile by the uneducated, for example and they are like 95% us), it should be worse for interplanetary negotiations...
Then again most aliens look and behave exactly like humans...
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[QUOTE=Vidocq;24248]Maybe She's there to help in negotiations, thinking back, facial expressions for the species in Earth vary greatly, they are practically the opposite in some cases, particulary in Happiness vs Agression (The way Chimps show anger is sometimes confused as a laugh or a smile by the uneducated, for example and they are like 95% us), it should be worse for interplanetary negotiations...
Then again most aliens look and behave exactly like humans...[/QUOTE]
That's the thing with Troi, there are legitimate reasons for the things she does, like being on the bridge all the time or not wearing a uniform, but the show never really addresses it. In situations where her empathic powers could come in handy, they either aren't working or she's not around. Instead of running into aliens that express emotions differently, every species is basically the same as humans but with a funny hat. I've also seen fan interpretations that a counselor might choose not to wear a uniform (at least during sessions) because it might trigger PTSD or remind someone of their difference in rank and make it difficult to speak openly with her. I don't think it's ever explained in the show why she doesn't wear a uniform until some point in the series she just switches over. I know I read an interview with Marina Sirtis saying she only dressed that way to add sex appeal to the show. She wasn't too happy about it either.
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[QUOTE=Vidocq;23630]
But: Why are kids in the Enterprise? Even as an exploratory vessel that's hugely irresponsable.[/QUOTE]
I don't see it as too far out there. It's basically a floating military base so having families aboard makes sense. They didn't seek out strife or war, so they weren't purposefully endangering kids.
[QUOTE=Vidocq;23630]And what exactly is Troi's job? I get she is an empath, which leads to her stating the obvious a lot (I feel that guy with the frowny face is angry, Captain) but she mostly seems to act as a Space Psychologist, which while cool, doesn't seem to justify her position on the bridge.[/QUOTE]
I've heard some explain that it was a 1990s thing, to have the psychiatrist as part of the crew but I don't think other ships had their counselor on the bridge so I think classifying her as living lie-detector is accurate.
[QUOTE=Frog_Girl;24288] I don't think it's ever explained in the show why she doesn't wear a uniform until some point in the series she just switches over. I know I read an interview with Marina Sirtis saying she only dressed that way to add sex appeal to the show. She wasn't too happy about it either.[/QUOTE]
They weren't consistent with her character. The first season she wore a uniform but the mini-dress version. Then she was in her own purple getup, I guess to separate her from the hierarchy but then they wanted her to be a part of it and they put her in a standard uniform we find she has the rank of commander.
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Think Picard was probably quite lenient in Troi's uniform. In the episode "Chain of Command" , the new captain who took over told her off and asked her to dress appropriately in a Starfleet uniform.
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Deep Space Nine is my favorite Trek series.
I'm working on rewatching both TNG and Voyager, slowly but surely.
And thought it isn't TV, I'm a big fan of all the post series books that have been published.
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[QUOTE=Vidocq;23630]I'm watching more of TNG, I have some questions. First, while I'm still not particulary interested in the other characters (Though Data as Sherlock Holmes was fun, even if they did got some things wrong in their ''exact duplicate'') I really like Picard. He seems like he would have been a great role model for kids and teens watching back then and it's a privilage I wish I had. [/QUOTE]
LOVE Picard. My favourite captain (and hands down the best actor out of the captains)
[QUOTE=Vidocq;23630]Also I saw that gay episode (Outcast) and while anvilicious for today's standards it's kind of ballsy for the 1980's family friendly show, kind of cool that even 30 years later Roddenberry was still ahead of his time.[/QUOTE]
Meh. 2014 and still no main character has ever been LGBT. The metaphor was nice back then, but that momentum should have continued, rather than remained nothing but a metaphor (or something only "dark mirror universe people do"). What made them ground-breaking originally wasn't metaphors for a multi-racial cast, but actually having a multi-racial cast. It wasn't a metaphor for an interracial kiss, it was an actual interracial kiss.
[QUOTE=Vidocq;23630]But: Why are kids in the Enterprise? Even as an exploratory vessel that's hugely irresponsable.[/QUOTE]
I know they discuss that several times; esp. in[I] Yesterday's Enterprise[/I] Guinan says the ship should have children on it.
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Data is my favorite character, it's interesting to watch and think of how we would be if we had an android among us, working alongside us. I learn a lot from Picard, his leadership style is a perfect model to copy, mostly.
About children on the Enterprise... that is interesting to think about. The best answer I would think of is that crew spend years away from home while serving on the Enterprise, so they have the option to have their family with them. And the Enterprise is not primarily supposed to be a warship or peacekeeper, though it seems to end up into that role anyway.
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Picard was incredible--I loved that series, and watching the crew become a family over the years, including Picard. Troi, on the other hand, I always found kind of silly.
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Troi is OK, but the idea of children aboard a starship was just silly.
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[QUOTE=Kieran_Frost;25655]LOVE Picard. My favourite captain (and hands down the best actor out of the captains)
[/QUOTE]
While I really like Picard, my favorite is still Shatner's Kirk. I'm a big fan of Shatner in general, he was in two of my favorite Twilight Zone episodes (which I did grew up with and rewatch a lot) and he was the best in Boston Legal, which which would probably be like in my top 3 favorite shows, if I ever do such list. And, while sometimes hammy, he is amazing in some TOS episodes. Particulary in Conscience of a King, possibly my favorite TOS episode and the one that established the criminally under represented fact that Kirk was a holocaust survivor (not that holocaust but a holocaust in a space colony that happened when he was 15) and that informed a lot of his decisions in later episodes.
[QUOTE]Meh. 2014 and still no main character has ever been LGBT. The metaphor was nice back then, but that momentum should have continued, rather than remained nothing but a metaphor (or something only "dark mirror universe people do"). What made them ground-breaking originally wasn't metaphors for a multi-racial cast, but actually having a multi-racial cast. It wasn't a metaphor for an interracial kiss, it was an actual interracial kiss.
[/QUOTE]
You know, I think that had Roddenberry lived long enough (and was of good health) he would've added an LGBT character to TNG or DS9. The first gay kiss on TV should've been done in TNG or DS9 and not in Will and Grace, all they needed was someone with the balls to stand up to Paramount like Gene did to NBC and make it happen.
[QUOTE=PretenderNX01;24684]I don't see it as too far out there. It's basically a floating military base so having families aboard makes sense. They didn't seek out strife or war, so they weren't purposefully endangering kids.[/QUOTE]
Well, it would be different if they were kids on the DS9, but the Enterprise navigates in uncharted territory, as far as they knew, it could all be a war zone. It would like soldiers shipping with their families to Irak or Afganistan.
[QUOTE]I've heard some explain that it was a 1990s thing, to have the psychiatrist as part of the crew but I don't think other ships had their counselor on the bridge so I think classifying her as living lie-detector is accurate.
[/QUOTE]
That makes sense, though as a psychologist I can't help to think that her time in the bridge might hamper her work as a councelour for the rest of the crew.
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[QUOTE=Green Lantern wannabe;28637]Troi is OK, but the idea of children aboard a starship was just silly.[/QUOTE]
Sirtis is great but the character is kind of useless
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Love TNG, and DS9. Two best series in the franchise.
Yes, Troi was the ships counselor, but her job was to state the obvious. So she ended up pretty useless.
My favorite character was probably Data. Picard was a good character, when he didn't have hard on for the Prime Directive. "yes, this planet will explode, killing everyone on it. Clearly, the enlightened and moral thing to do is let them all die!" Seriously?
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Most of the captains are fairly rigid when it comes to prime directive. Worst was probably Katherine Janeaway in Voyager but when it comes to servicing her own needs , she certainly has no problem doing so especially at the end with the deus ex machine plot device to get the voyager back to earth. (though that was a future janeaway)
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They can always forget about the Prime Directive when the plot demands it.
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[QUOTE=Legionnaire Sarigar;29632]They can always forget about the Prime Directive when the plot demands it.[/QUOTE]
Kirk went through somewhat of a story arc in season two where he would constantly weasel himself out of the Prime Directive because he thought it the right thing to do in the short run and he would usually leave the planet to their own devices (one time even saying ''well, good luck with that''. ) to a turning point where he finds out about a Federation commander accidentally reinventing The Nazi Party's racism and Final Solution trying to help an alien civilization. His last words was him regretting his interfernce, after that Kirk was very much fanatical about it and some episodes after that were against Rogue Federation Agents breaking it in selfish ways.
[QUOTE=MikeP;29495]Love TNG, and DS9. Two best series in the franchise.
Yes, Troi was the ships counselor, but her job was to state the obvious. So she ended up pretty useless.
My favorite character was probably Data. Picard was a good character, when he didn't have hard on for the Prime Directive. "yes, this planet will explode, killing everyone on it. Clearly, the enlightened and moral thing to do is let them all die!" Seriously?[/QUOTE]
I gotta watch that episode, which one was it?
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[QUOTE=Vidocq;29744]I gotta watch that episode, which one was it?[/QUOTE]
Pen Pals and Homeward are two that come to mind. To be fair, Picard did relent in Pen Pals, but he clearly didn't want to.
Sci Fi Debis does a pretty good job breaking it down:
[URL="http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/zprimedirective.php"]http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/zprimedirective.php[/URL]
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[QUOTE=MikeP;29495]Love TNG, and DS9. Two best series in the franchise.
Yes, Troi was the ships counselor, but her job was to state the obvious. So she ended up pretty useless.
My favorite character was probably Data. Picard was a good character, when he didn't have hard on for the Prime Directive. "yes, this planet will explode, killing everyone on it. Clearly, the enlightened and moral thing to do is let them all die!" Seriously?[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=MikeP;29922]Pen Pals and Homeward are two that come to mind. To be fair, Picard did relent in Pen Pals, but he clearly didn't want to.
Sci Fi Debis does a pretty good job breaking it down:
[URL="http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/zprimedirective.php"]http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/zprimedirective.php[/URL][/QUOTE]
Interesting, I haven't watched any of those episodes (still pretty new to Trek) though I liked that Kirk comparison, how it somehow became a dogma, maybe it somehow had to do with that story arc I mentioned. A Federation created Nazi planet scared the hell out of Kirk. I really didn't like some of the false dichonomies he used as examples, though, it hurt his argument even if I agreed with the general message. I wonder about those 9 Prime Directive breaches in Picard's record, though.
It seems that the love for a Trek series is proportional to the amount of Prime Directive episodes.
BTDubs, searching Kirk and Prime Directive in Youtube gives you this:
[video=youtube;264s-sFqvTA]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=264s-sFqvTA[/video]
I love Captain Kirk.
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The Prime Directive got slammed in Into Darkness, so we won't be seeing more of it on the screen.
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[QUOTE=Legionnaire Sarigar;31769]The Prime Directive got slammed in Into Darkness, so we won't be seeing more of it on the screen.[/QUOTE]
I don't remember that movie that well, how was the Prime Directive Slammed?
The Prime Directive was considerably more laxed in the 23th century, it wasn't a breach to save a planet without being seen, or you could breach it to avoid the destruction of a civilization.
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Kirk made it clear he thought it was stupid and he had not learned the supposed error of his ways before the end.
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[QUOTE=Legionnaire Sarigar;34292]Kirk made it clear he thought it was stupid and he had not learned the supposed error of his ways before the end.[/QUOTE]
Oh, another reason not to like Into The Darkness, then.
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Troi nor Dr. Crusher were really under utilized by the writers. Both characters were basically defined by their jobs and their gender for the entirety of the run. Which is quite sad because all of the other principle cast members (save Yar) were fully fleshed out characters by the end of the show. Heck, I'd almost say that Ro Laren had better growth than either Troi and Crusher (side note, I am still bummed that she didn't join DS9's cast. I love Kira but Ro is just so much cooler). The few brief times when Troi & Crusher showed any kind of growth were standout episodes (like when Troi was promoted or Crusher dealt with the terrorist (second side note: I hate that magic sex ghost episode)).
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I just learned that in the TNG Episode the Offspring there were supposed to be same sex couples around the bar for Lal to see, not making a big deal out of it, they would just be there in the background, not even kissing just there and the [B]producers [/B]fought against.
What happen to you, Star Trek? You used to be cool.
[url]http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/t164.php[/url]
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[QUOTE=GLFan5994;34427]Troi nor Dr. Crusher were really under utilized by the writers. Both characters were basically defined by their jobs and their gender for the entirety of the run. Which is quite sad because all of the other principle cast members (save Yar) were fully fleshed out characters by the end of the show. Heck, I'd almost say that Ro Laren had better growth than either Troi and Crusher (side note, I am still bummed that she didn't join DS9's cast. I love Kira but Ro is just so much cooler). The few brief times when Troi & Crusher showed any kind of growth were standout episodes (like when Troi was promoted or Crusher dealt with the terrorist (second side note: I hate that magic sex ghost episode)).[/QUOTE]
Whatever happened to the actress who played Ro Laren? I haven't heard anything about her since she left TNG. Does she even do conventions?
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[QUOTE]Whatever happened to the actress who played Ro Laren?[/QUOTE]
Watch Battlestar Galactica. She played the kickass commander Cain of the battlestar Pegasus.
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Which Star Trek shows are on Netflix UK, does anyone know? I've only ever seen the intial episode of Enterprise and couldn't really get into it, but I guess if it was on Netflix I could give it a chance.
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[QUOTE=GLFan5994;34427](second side note: I hate that magic sex ghost episode)).[/QUOTE]
Nooooooooo don't remind me!
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[QUOTE=John Ossie;34753]Whatever happened to the actress who played Ro Laren? I haven't heard anything about her since she left TNG. Does she even do conventions?[/QUOTE]
Last time i recall seeing her on tv was in the 2nd season of true blood where she was the maenad , the evil big bad of that season.
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[QUOTE=Vidocq;34681]I just learned that in the TNG Episode the Offspring there were supposed to be same sex couples around the bar for Lal to see, not making a big deal out of it, they would just be there in the background, not even kissing just there and the [B]producers [/B]fought against.
What happen to you, Star Trek? You used to be cool.
[url]http://sfdebris.com/videos/startrek/t164.php[/url][/QUOTE]
WOOHOO, SFD finally reviews The Offspring, one of my favorite episodes!
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In the other thread before the BBS reboot I mentioned the ill-fated Lt. Hawk from First Contact was supposed to be gay (and was in the Trek EU).
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[QUOTE=John Ossie;34753]Whatever happened to the actress who played Ro Laren? I haven't heard anything about her since she left TNG. Does she even do conventions?[/QUOTE]
Wasn't she in like Season 2 of 24? If that floats your boat.
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[QUOTE=John Ossie;34753]Whatever happened to the actress who played Ro Laren? I haven't heard anything about her since she left TNG. Does she even do conventions?[/QUOTE]
She was in 15 episodes of In Treatment, 15 episodes of True Blood, 26 episodes of the Killing, 3 episodes of BSG, 18 episodes of 24 and, apparently, has a reoccurring role on both Orphan Black and Chicago Fire.
[QUOTE=steve2275;35951]anyone read the novels?[/QUOTE]
Judith and Garfield Reeves-Stevens are two of my favorite authors, so I adore the Shatnerverse.
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i still like MY? idea of earth gaurded by thousands of galaxy class starships
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The novels have been decent lately, they're basically continuing the TNG/DS9/VOY plotlines past Nemesis. Not canon of course but some are still pretty good.
They've also fleshed out in the Lost Era series what happens between Generation's prologue and Encounter At Farpoint (TNG pilot) . Most of those books are also well done and often feature the crews of Excelsior, Enterprise B, Enterprise C and the Stargazer in this era. There's some gap novels between TOS/TMP and TMP/TWOK as well.
It's also kind of interesting how the ST movie novels also contained a lot of material that was not in the films-Star Trek II features a lot of extra background on the Genesis scientists; Search for Spock has a whole romantic storyline between David and Saavik. Even the TFF novel is interesting in that it reveals what the 'secret pains' are of the crew apart from those seen in the movie.
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[QUOTE=steve2275;35951]anyone read the novels?[/QUOTE]
I read the novels. I love the post series books for TNG, DS9, Voyager and Enterprise. Also the Star Trek: Titan books were excellent as well.
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[QUOTE=Vidocq;29107]The first gay kiss on TV should've been done in TNG or DS9 and not in Will and Grace[/QUOTE]
Did they beat Jadzias kiss with her ex-wife?
[QUOTE=Vidocq;33671]The Prime Directive was considerably more laxed in the 23th century, it wasn't a breach to save a planet without being seen, or you could breach it to avoid the destruction of a civilization.[/QUOTE]
Which I like a hell of a lot better than some of the 24th century "oh well, too bad for them" attitude, as much as I agree with the Prime Directive in general.
[QUOTE=steve2275;35951]anyone read the novels?[/QUOTE]
Novels, comics, video game walk-throughs on Youtube...
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i never understood why tng era on up the ships never fired phasers like they did in the original series and original movies