-
[QUOTE=Ka-Zar;1402360]Let's look at the facts:
1. Hercules first appeared in the pages of "Thor" in 1965.
2. Since 1965, Hercules has been known for his numerous affairs with beautiful women.
3. Also since 1965, Hercules has been shown as the kind of character who isn't shy about his emotions (or lust).
4. While the character was dead, there was a hint that the character had a sexual encounter with gay hero Northstar in 2010. This was a comment made by She-Hulk.
5. Since that reference in 2010, Hercules has continued to show interest only in women.
I think we can all agree that the Marvel Comics version of Hercules has been clearly established as a straight hero. I get that you feel like Marvel has taken away something from the character. I feel like you've invested a lot in a character because of his sexual identity and based most of this on a reference made in one comic that could have been just a joke by She-Hulk, or it could be that this was just one writer trying to change a character and then the other folks at Marvel looked at it afterward and said "Hey wait a minute...you can't do that!"
[B]If Hercules being bisexual became official, Marvel would have changed 50 years of comic book history in order to stay true to one reference made by another character that could have been a joke.[/B]
Now that Hercules being straight is official, Marvel has stayed true to 50 years of comic book history and has dismissed only one line of dialogue.
I don't see a problem with that.[/QUOTE]
Most of the big names have been around for over 50 years, so when you make a change of significance chances are you're "changing the way things have been for 50 years". Unless you want the 1940s version of Batman (and, bless 'em, some do) things are going to change from time to time. If they'd said Hawkeye was coming out, or Spider-Man, or Daredevil, then I'd have a harder time accepting it. With Herc, it just fits.
-
[QUOTE=CSTowle;1402460]Most of the big names have been around for over 50 years, so when you make a change of significance chances are you're "changing the way things have been for 50 years". Unless you want the 1940s version of Batman (and, bless 'em, some do) things are going to change from time to time. If they'd said Hawkeye was coming out, or Spider-Man, or Daredevil, then I'd have a harder time accepting it. With Herc, it just fits.[/QUOTE]
How about Captain America?
-
well written article. it's nice to see these things written about without an inherent marvel bashing to it.
-
[QUOTE=Ka-Zar;1402360]Let's look at the facts:
1. Hercules first appeared in the pages of "Thor" in 1965.
2. Since 1965, Hercules has been known for his numerous affairs with beautiful women.
3. Also since 1965, Hercules has been shown as the kind of character who isn't shy about his emotions (or lust).
4. While the character was dead, there was a hint that the character had a sexual encounter with gay hero Northstar in 2010. This was a comment made by She-Hulk.
5. Since that reference in 2010, Hercules has continued to show interest only in women.
I think we can all agree that the Marvel Comics version of Hercules has been clearly established as a straight hero. I get that you feel like Marvel has taken away something from the character. I feel like you've invested a lot in a character because of his sexual identity and based most of this on a reference made in one comic that could have been just a joke by She-Hulk, or it could be that this was just one writer trying to change a character and then the other folks at Marvel looked at it afterward and said "Hey wait a minute...you can't do that!"
If Hercules being bisexual became official, Marvel would have changed 50 years of comic book history in order to stay true to one reference made by another character that could have been a joke.
Now that Hercules being straight is official, Marvel has stayed true to 50 years of comic book history and has dismissed only one line of dialogue.
I don't see a problem with that.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. I accompany him in the titles of Thor, Avengers, Champions and his own titles and only happened this mention .
-
Herc didn't come out as bisexual. It was a one page joke, similar to the way Living Lightning was outed in Great Lakes Avengers. I think it should bother people more that bi and gay is used as a punchline at Marvel rather than a joke being ignored afterwards...
-
[QUOTE]Let's look at the facts:
1. Hercules first appeared in the pages of "Thor" in 1965.
2. Since 1965, Hercules has been known for his numerous affairs with beautiful women.
3. Also since 1965, Hercules has been shown as the kind of character who isn't shy about his emotions (or lust).
4. While the character was dead, there was a hint that the character had a sexual encounter with gay hero Northstar in 2010. This was a comment made by She-Hulk.
5. Since that reference in 2010, Hercules has continued to show interest only in women.
I think we can all agree that the Marvel Comics version of Hercules has been clearly established as a straight hero. I get that you feel like Marvel has taken away something from the character. I feel like you've invested a lot in a character because of his sexual identity and based most of this on a reference made in one comic that could have been just a joke by She-Hulk, or it could be that this was just one writer trying to change a character and then the other folks at Marvel looked at it afterward and said "Hey wait a minute...you can't do that!"
If Hercules being bisexual became official, Marvel would have changed 50 years of comic book history in order to stay true to one reference made by another character that could have been a joke.
Now that Hercules being straight is official, Marvel has stayed true to 50 years of comic book history and has dismissed only one line of dialogue.
I don't see a problem with that.[/QUOTE]
You forgot fact '0'.
That the mythological character that Marvel's Hercules is based on is bisexual.
So, that mention in 2010 was less about making Hercules bisexual, and more to do with making the character line up with what was established in mythology.
Not that everything in the Marvel Universe has to line up with mythology (Thor's hair being blonde instead of red, for example) but you can't really claim that this came out of nowhere.
And there is nothing in his long history with Marvel which shows that Herc isn't bi. Yes, he's slept with a lot of women. Yes, he clearly prefers women. But never have you seen a man come onto Herc and have him say 'No, thank you'.
[QUOTE]Herc didn't come out as bisexual. It was a one page joke, similar to the way Living Lightning was outed in Great Lakes Avengers. I think it should bother people more that bi and gay is used as a punchline at Marvel rather than a joke being ignored afterwards... [/QUOTE]
True. Except that joke led to Living Lightning being officially established as being gay.
-
Marvel Comics Hercules doesn't have to follow every myth. There are so many myths about Hercules...a lot of them probably contradict each other... so no one is going to try to make them all true. All they can do is pick one version of him and stick with that.
[QUOTE=Pauul;1402664]You forgot fact '0'.
And there is nothing in his long history with Marvel which shows that Herc isn't bi. Yes, he's slept with a lot of women. Yes, he clearly prefers women. But never have you seen a man come onto Herc and have him say 'No, thank you'.
[/QUOTE]
If that's the argument you're going with, you might as well say that Captain America could be revealed to be bisexual just because he has never denied having an interest in men.
-
[QUOTE=Pauul;1402664]You forgot fact '0'.
That the mythological character that Marvel's Hercules is based on is bisexual.[/QUOTE]
As someone with a classics minor from college, this is one of two arguments which really bugs me. The mythological representation of Hercules is nothing like what the modern identity of bisexuality. The Greco-Roman concept of masculinity wherein many married men would have monogamous sexual relationship with their wives *except* in the context of mentoring (and being sexually involved with) teenage of younger boys in a power relationship is NOT the sort of adults in consenting relationship that modern LGBT context presumes –*it's honestly the ancient version of what the coaches at Penn State were arrested for and many priests and scoutmasters remain under investigation by their organizations about on account of substantial accusations. There *was* historical and literary depictions of same-sex romance and intercourse in the classical world between adults (be mindful that not all emotional interaction between men in old sources is sexual –*prior to about WWI and the changes in masculinity brought about by total warfare, close male friends interacted much more like how we still things of heterosexual "girlfriends" interacting in terms of emotional contact –*and that Roman satire in particular played with the device of male romance became of the lack of actresses in theater), but we don't see any examples of Heracles/Hercules among them.
The other argument is an unspoken one. All the discussions are about Axel Alonso – or occasionally referencing one previous line by Pak and Van Lente. Yet, no one actually mentions Dan Abnett or his desires for the series. The focus on sexuality here is huge, as it was in the "marketing" in interviews for the latest Loki series (which, ironically, now has fans up in arms because Al Ewing didn't have Loki hook up with any guys during the run) –*Abnett has made it quite clear what the focus of the series is about in the initial interviews, and (if anything) Hercules' sexuality and who he's dating is pretty much the further thing from his mind. So, not trying to establish a new sexual beachhead for the character makes absolute sense for editorial if that's not what the writer is going for. This book has a certain narrative focus on Hercules, even in regards to his past, and his love life and sexuality are NOT that focus –*if anything, it appears that the character is seeking to avoid his sexual ways after a fashion. And, to be honest, given the focus that so many books are putting onto the love lives of characters, that's a diversity that I and many others are looking forward to!
-
[QUOTE=Pauul;1402664]You forgot fact '0'.
That the mythological character that Marvel's Hercules is based on is bisexual.
So, that mention in 2010 was less about making Hercules bisexual, and more to do with making the character line up with what was established in mythology.
Not that everything in the Marvel Universe has to line up with mythology (Thor's hair being blonde instead of red, for example) but you can't really claim that this came out of nowhere.
And there is nothing in his long history with Marvel which shows that Herc isn't bi. Yes, he's slept with a lot of women. Yes, he clearly prefers women. But never have you seen a man come onto Herc and have him say 'No, thank you'.
[/QUOTE]
yes, someone approaches him in a bathroom and he says something along the lines of "ill tell you the same thing i told alexander, i understand the desire but ill have to decline" (the quote isnt right but something very similar).
how common knowledge was mythological herc's bisexuality in the 1960's? is that something stan and jack would have known about, or would most of their herc knowledge come from pop culture, which would have surely white washed everything?
-
[QUOTE=totalsellout;1402782]yes, someone approaches him in a bathroom and he says something along the lines of "ill tell you the same thing i told alexander, i understand the desire but ill have to decline" (the quote isnt right but something very similar).
how common knowledge was mythological herc's bisexuality in the 1960's? is that something stan and jack would have known about, or would most of their herc knowledge come from pop culture, which would have surely white washed everything?[/QUOTE]
Do you think it is a common practice for gay men to hit on other men, whether they be gay or straight, in a bathroom? GEEZ....it's 2015, PLEASE get with the times. Do you know how offensive that is to gay men, of which, I am one? I would NEVER, EVER dream of doing something like that, nor have I ever been approached or even heard of someone doing that. Please adjust your perception of gay men, we have more class that that.
-
[QUOTE=Ka-Zar;1402360]Let's look at the facts:
1. Hercules first appeared in the pages of "Thor" in 1965.
2. Since 1965, Hercules has been known for his numerous affairs with beautiful women.
3. Also since 1965, Hercules has been shown as the kind of character who isn't shy about his emotions (or lust).
4. While the character was dead, there was a hint that the character had a sexual encounter with gay hero Northstar in 2010. This was a comment made by She-Hulk.
5. Since that reference in 2010, Hercules has continued to show interest only in women.
I think we can all agree that the Marvel Comics version of Hercules has been clearly established as a straight hero. I get that you feel like Marvel has taken away something from the character. I feel like you've invested a lot in a character because of his sexual identity and based most of this on a reference made in one comic that could have been just a joke by She-Hulk, or it could be that this was just one writer trying to change a character and then the other folks at Marvel looked at it afterward and said "Hey wait a minute...you can't do that!"
[B]If Hercules being bisexual became official, Marvel would have changed 50 years of comic book history in order to stay true to one reference made by another character that could have been a joke. [/B]
Now that Hercules being straight is official, Marvel has stayed true to 50 years of comic book history and has dismissed only one line of dialogue.
I don't see a problem with that.[/QUOTE]
Aside from the joke aspect, isnt this really similar to what they are doing with Iceman? I mean there's been a few hints here and there, but by in large most of the evidence with the character has been that the character is straight.
And with Hercules, it's not like being bisexual would make any of those aspects of the character any less valid. Last time I check, bisexual people prefer women as well as men. That goes with the term. Perhaps he is bisexual individual who prefers females, but doesn't mind ocassionally falling for a dude. That wouldnt be the end of the world.
I have a feeling that Greg Pak slipped that line in without Marvel really noticing of caring too much.
-
[QUOTE=invasionforce;1402206]it's nice to think that Marvel might have the courage to one day publish [B]a Hercules miniseries in which he teams up with Shatterstar, and one thing leads to another ...[/B][/QUOTE]
C'mon be honest. You've written a slashfic about that.
[QUOTE=Ka-Zar;1402360][B]I think we can all agree that the Marvel Comics version of Hercules has been clearly established as a straight hero.[/B] I get that you feel like Marvel has taken away something from the character. I feel like you've invested a lot in a character because of his sexual identity and based most of this on a reference made in one comic that could have been just a joke by She-Hulk, or it could be that this was just one writer trying to change a character and then the other folks at Marvel looked at it afterward and said "Hey wait a minute...you can't do that!"
If Hercules being bisexual became official, Marvel would have changed 50 years of comic book history in order to stay true to one reference made by another character that could have been a joke.
Now that Hercules being straight is official, Marvel has stayed true to 50 years of comic book history and has dismissed only one line of dialogue.
[B]I don't see a problem with that.[/B][/QUOTE]
I'm sure you don't have a problem with that. Some people just [I]love[/I] the status quo. With minorities standing in the margins. The fact is that having Hercules being bi doesn't contradict continuity and actually strengthens his roots as a Greek hero.
[QUOTE=Darth Phoenix;1402409]It matters to me too. most of gay history has been straight washed or has my High school history teacher said of Alexander the great "That part about him is unimportant and and should not be brought up when teaching about such people"[/QUOTE]
Maybe he was taking a very Victorian British approach? Where proclivities were a very private matter.
[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;1402517]How about Captain America?[/QUOTE]
Well Steve Rogers has been in a few long relationships with women and I've never seen a hint of him swinging that way. However just like when we find out that the 3rd Captain America, Jeffrey Mace, was Jewish I could see [I]Bucky/Winter Soldier[/I] being gay.
[QUOTE=Steve068;1402658]Herc didn't come out as bisexual.[/QUOTE]
Being bi probably doesn't enter Hercules' mind as a preference. He's just a Greek warrior of his era. He doesn't pay it any mind. He likes what he likes.
[QUOTE=thejka;1402878]with Hercules, it's not like being bisexual would make any of those aspects of the character any less valid. Last time I check, bisexual people prefer women as well as men. That goes with the term. Perhaps he is bisexual individual who prefers females, but doesn't mind ocassionally falling for a dude. That wouldnt be the end of the world.[/QUOTE]
Exactly.
-
[QUOTE=capt usa;1402041]I liked the article, but am I the only straight guy who found the rampant use of the word queer in the article unsettling? I just have never been comfortable with that word, it has it's own meaning completely separate from gay and was altered to mean gay in a slur way, but I still think of the word queer to mean strange or unusual (see Les Nessman and WKRP in Cincinatti to know what I mean) and not about sexual orientation.[/QUOTE]
I'm gay and I'm with you. I absolutely HATE it. The word hasnt been reclaimed, and it's just a real bug bear of mine to see it used over and over like this.
GREAT article, totally agree with it, but yeah, hate the language use.
-
Hercules is bisexual from the ancient Greek myths. The whole question of whether he is or not is stupid. Amadeus Cho even references how he does not have the sexual relationship that Herc had with one of his young male companions. There's a word for their relationship. I can't remember what it was.
Also, I'm gay, and I HATE HATE HATE the word queer. It always felt to me like it was an attempt to be like black culture and the N word, but instead of using it as slang, the LGBT community decided to turn it into the official term for us all.
-
[QUOTE=RLAAMJR.;1402517]How about Captain America?[/QUOTE]
Bi? Sure. Given the s##t-storm that'd kick up, I doubt they'd go for it but it wouldn't surprise me.
