Printable View
well you will have to take it up with the op as he is the one who initiated the whole rating mess instead of simply enjoying their niche place in DCU. :p he for some reason feels that there is a cause for their being overrated when they mostly enjoy low profiles in DCU. :p
[QUOTE=The Anti-Geek;4354419]I am a firm believer that good writing can fix just about anything. But in the case of Cold being the sole villain in a Flash movie. I think I could buy it. Snart is a strategist. I think there are dozens of ways that he can challenge The Flash without directly confronting him. Maybe extreme low temperatures can disrupt his speed. Give him more cold-related gadgets. Misdirection, ultimatums, etc. I honestly think it's possible. I think Cold challenging Flash on his own is way more believable than Digger doing it.[/QUOTE]
The fact that Digger can put his pants on straight in the morning is pretty impressive, so I definitely agree Cold solo-challenging Flash is way more believable. :p
I do agree; good writing can make many of the Rogues a viable solo challenge. But I think it'd require a lot more imagination and creativity than we usually see in the movies too.
[QUOTE=Ascended;4356246]
I do agree; good writing can make many of the Rogues a viable solo challenge. But I think it'd require a lot more imagination and creativity than we usually see in the movies too.[/QUOTE]
Having The Rogues individually works better in a serialized TV format then in the movies I think, and I say this acknowledging how much they have to dumb down Barry on the show sometimes.
But we've also never gotten a full-on Rogues group in the show either.
[QUOTE=theoneandonly;4355151]well you will have to take it up with the op as he is the one who initiated the whole rating mess instead of simply enjoying their niche place in DCU. :p he for some reason feels that there is a cause for their being overrated when they mostly enjoy low profiles in DCU. :p[/QUOTE]
Not what the opening poster, Zeeguy, did, though. Pretty disrespectful and definitely disingenuous. Apparently, one of the most non-toxic discussion topics, in a forum infamous for them, is seen as "rocking the boat".
Honestly, I can see how "same-y" the Flash's/Barry's rouges can seem, and they do tend get hype from their fans as the bestest thing ever, which would warrant some closer introspection on why and if that hype can reasonably be translated to non-Flash/Barry and non-comics general audience fans.
[QUOTE=J. D. Guy;4356302]
Honestly, I can see how "same-y" the Flash's/Barry's rouges can seem, and they do tend get hype from their fans as the bestest thing ever, which would warrant some closer introspection on why and if that hype can reasonably be translated to non-Flash/Barry and non-comics general audience fans.[/QUOTE]
I mean, I'd get the "same-y" issue if every Rogue was like Cold and Heat Wave where it's "has gun, shoots some kind of element" gimmick, but The Rogues powersets tend to be much more different then that and they've all developed past their Silver Sage selves where they all had similar personalities of "crooks who hate The Flash."
No, they're not.
Simple as that.
[QUOTE=J. D. Guy;4356302]Not what the opening poster, Zeeguy, did, though. Pretty disrespectful and definitely disingenuous. Apparently, one of the most non-toxic discussion topics, in a forum infamous for them, is seen as "rocking the boat".
Honestly, I can see how "same-y" the Flash's/Barry's rouges can seem, and they do tend get hype from their fans as the bestest thing ever, which would warrant some closer introspection on why and if that hype can reasonably be translated to non-Flash/Barry and non-comics general audience fans.[/QUOTE]
Thank you for stepping up to my defense.
Yeah, no, I never meant to imply that I think the Flash rogues are [B]bad[/B], per se. I, myself, am a big Flash fan and I love a bunch of his villains. But...that's because I'm a fan. I was simply asking if they should be listed among Batman's villains as one of the best rogues galleries in comics and, if not, if there can be anything done to add more diversity to the bunch.
[QUOTE=Zeeguy91;4356364]Thank you for stepping up to my defense.
Yeah, no, I never meant to imply that I think the Flash rogues are [B]bad[/B], per se. I, myself, am a big Flash fan and I love a bunch of his villains. But...that's because I'm a fan. I was simply asking if they should be listed among Batman's villains as one of the best rogues galleries in comics and, if not, if there can be anything done to add more diversity to the bunch.[/QUOTE]
I don't think anyone is putting them quite at the level of Batman's Rogues Gallery but that, among the various Rogues Galleries in comics, they are probably one of the more memorable and unique after the big ones (Batman and Spider-Man's).
[QUOTE=Frontier;4353829]For Flash it's Grodd. [/QUOTE]
I agree that Grodd is the big bruiser type, but he's not like Bane or Doomsday or Venom. Those three are famous for having burst onto the scene in a really big way. Bane broke Batman's back. Doomsday, of course, killed Superman. Venom spun out of Secret Wars and his rejection by Spider-Man and bonding with Eddie Brock is iconic. I can't really point to specific moment of Grodd's that makes him analogous to those three.
[QUOTE]Catwoman is totally a Femme Fatale. She oozes sexuality and uses that around people even when she's not around Batman.[/QUOTE]
But its more a function of Ivy's character than Selina's
[QUOTE]But Batman has the most prominent female villains of any comic hero aside from Wonder Woman, and his are arguably more famous then Diana's.[/QUOTE]
But we can still point to other prominent female villains who haven't been fridged or forgotten. I mean, Superman has Silver Banshee, Livewire, Rampage, Granny Goodness, and Maxima.
never mind
[QUOTE=Zeeguy91;4356586]I agree that Grodd is the big bruiser type, but he's not like Bane or Doomsday or Venom. Those three are famous for having burst onto the scene in a really big way. Bane broke Batman's back. Doomsday, of course, killed Superman. Venom spun out of Secret Wars and his rejection by Spider-Man and bonding with Eddie Brock is iconic. I can't really point to specific moment of Grodd's that makes him analogous to those three.[/QUOTE]
I think Grodd was the first villain it took three Flashes to beat, with Barry, Wally, and Jay needing to work together to beat him. That's pretty major in my opinion.
He also indirectly created Zoom by crippling Hunter, and we all know how that ended for Wally...
He was also the impetus for the first big "event" story of the New 52 Flash run, and a culmination on a lot of Joshua Williamson's Flash plots.
[QUOTE]But its more a function of Ivy's character than Selina's[/QUOTE]
I don't know, I think being a Femme Fatale in her own right is a pretty important function of Selina's character.
[QUOTE]But we can still point to other prominent female villains who haven't been fridged or forgotten. I mean, Superman has Silver Banshee, Livewire, Rampage, Granny Goodness, and Maxima.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but none of them are as popular as the Gotham City Sirens.
I mean, just looking at the Flash franchise as a whole we've got Golden Glider, Magenta, Blacksmith, Peek-a-Boo, and some one-off female villains who's names escapes me (an air theif in a Christos Gage one-shot, I think somebody else Wally fought during the Waid run).
[QUOTE=Frontier;4356599]I think Grodd was the first villain it took three Flashes to beat, with Barry, Wally, and Jay needing to work together to beat him. That's pretty major in my opinion.
He also indirectly created Zoom by crippling Hunter, and we all know how that ended for Wally...
He was also the impetus for the first big "event" story of the New 52 Flash run, and a culmination on a lot of Joshua Williamson's Flash plots. [/QUOTE]
Yeah, but I wouldn't compare that to what Doomsday or Bane did. There just isn't a moment in the Flash mythology for Grodd that is equivalent to the death of Superman at the hands of Doomsday or to Bane breaking Bruce's back. The latter two are famous even to people who haven't read those stories.
[QUOTE]I don't know, I think being a Femme Fatale in her own right is a pretty important function of Selina's character. [/QUOTE]
I mean, yeah, but IMO Ivy's just [B]more[/B] of a femme fatale. Either way, though, this is kinda tangential.
[QUOTE]Yeah, but none of them are as popular as the Gotham City Sirens.
I mean, just looking at the Flash franchise as a whole we've got Golden Glider, Magenta, Blacksmith, Peek-a-Boo, and some one-off female villains who's names escapes me (an air theif in a Christos Gage one-shot, I think somebody else Wally fought during the Waid run).[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but at least they're well-known. And I'd say the fact that, of those four Flash villains you listed, one was famously fridged, another was written out of continuity, and the latter two are pretty obscure as characters and it would take a dedicated Flash fan to know them (and also were potentially written out of continuity because they first appeared when Wally was Flash) proves my point.
A lot of my favourite Flash Rogues are from the lower classes. I identify with them more than Barry Allen or Iris West. These guys turned to crime because of their hard luck lives, but they all found their own trick that could sideline the Flash and put them on easy street. They each have a back story and a personality that distinguishes them from one another. And they each have a gimmick that is different from the rest. It's cool that they're enough alike that they'll work together as a gang, but as in most crime gangs there's friction between individuals.
[QUOTE=Zeeguy91;4360695]Yeah, but I wouldn't compare that to what Doomsday or Bane did. There just isn't a moment in the Flash mythology for Grodd that is equivalent to the death of Superman at the hands of Doomsday or to Bane breaking Bruce's back. The latter two are famous even to people who haven't read those stories.[/QUOTE]
Probably becuase they've been adapted into or referenced in media enough or put into seminal "iconic" stories that get reprinted constantly, but Flash isn't at that point as a franchise yet, I think.
[QUOTE][B]Yeah, but at least they're well-known.[/B] And I'd say the fact that, of those four Flash villains you listed, one was famously fridged, another was written out of continuity, and the latter two are pretty obscure as characters and it would take a dedicated Flash fan to know them (and also were potentially written out of continuity because they first appeared when Wally was Flash) proves my point.[/QUOTE]
I would say they're nowhere near as well-known as the Sirens. Silver Banshee (who hasn't been seen in years), Livewire (who is hardly ever used these days), and Granny Goodness are probably the most prominent in that list.
Glider's fridging was undone by the New 52 so I don't think it matters anymore, especially when she's been a pretty prominent member of the Rogues as far as current continuity. She's on the team more consistently then I think Captain Boomerang has by this point.
Magenta came back so I don't think it's that big a deal.
Firstly, I think it's pointless to engage in this discussion without applying any kind of metric to what it means to "rate" a rogues gallery. The OP was wondering why Flashes rogues were considered second "best", but that's a very open category. Are we talking power levels, characterization, memorable appearances, etc. The OP wanted more diversity, but that's according to one metric.
I believe that I voted for Batman as #1 and Flash as#2, but for totally different reasons. Most of Batman's rogues aren't very powerful, but they are engaging and have interesting backstories or function almost always as an interesting counterpoint to Batman in some way, which makes their appearance s more meaningful. I don't even read the Flash, but I know of his rogues as a group - they have a collective identity that the other rogues don't and from what I've seen they seem to have a very personal relationship to the Flash in a way that most heroes don't. While Batman's' rogues reflect Batman's issues and his damage, Flash's rogues seem to reflect Barry in that they're pretty regular people who just chose to be criminals rather than heroes. They're second "best" because they have become almost inseparable from how you think of the Flash.