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[QUOTE=LordUltimus;4154228]While I don't hate her, that's mostly because I think a retconned-in character has since taken the place of the earlier one, as seen in things like Marvels and Spider-Man: Blue.[/QUOTE]
And see, [I]Spider-Man: Blue[/I] is the best for classic Gwen in my mind. She was actually a character that I saw Peter actually loving. It did wonders for her character.
[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4154190]I honestly thought I was alone in my dislike of Gwen! I always felt she was such a bad character, even without Sins Past, that I was like: "How did Peter ever love her???"[/QUOTE]
In a character sense, in so far as Peter's love for Gwen goes, it's probably not flattering. But if you look at the AU where Peter and Gwen have a "happy ending", I am thinking especially of Mark Waid's House of M Spiderman but there's also that episode in the Fox cartoon in the final season...you will find that the stories don't revolve around Peter and Gwen having this great life affirming love that's at the core of the Peter/MJ love story. Instead most of the time, the fantasies about Peter and Gwen involve the American Dream...you know Peter being successful, having social status and stability, a wife and homemaker at his beck and call.
In short, I think based on House of M: Spiderman, to the extent that Peter loved Gwen it has to do with the fact that she's rich and was his only ticket to marrying to a higher station. Gwen Stacy is the only girl Peter ever dated to come from a higher social background than him. The only real "out of his league" girl. Mary Jane is working class, as was Betty Brant, as was Felicia Hardy. And that applies I guess to the Post-OMD rebounds. Basically I think the entire subtext of the Peter and Gwen romance in the Lee-Romita era was social climbing and Peter was a gold digger. I mean if you think about the fact that after they get together, Peter and Gwen never have fights that he's practically a doormat who lets Gwen do whatever she wants. After she insulted Aunt May, May actually ran away and went for a long time not talking to Peter and Peter's response is "welp Gwen accidentally hurt Aunt May's response" when the response should be "Nobody smack talks my fam"...I mean that sucks.
Obviously none of this stuff will ever be acknowledged in page since it's all you can interpret and infer from the material, and obviously saying Spider-Man and Peter Parker was only dating Gwen because of her class and wealth would not really be heroic. Instead people are saying that Gwen was a science major (which was never really established or touched back then). But to the extent people are attracted to the Peter/Gwen romance and to the extent that romance and "why is this a thing" needs to be explained that's the most logical thing you can get from that. Spider-Man: Blue did do a better job but even then the Gwen there wasn't really a character.
IN Gwen's defense, Peter was a terrible boyfriend to her and fundamentally Peter lied to her repeatedly, and those lies, his not telling her his secret identity, got her killed.
[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4154018]...[/QUOTE]
Dang, even Roger Stern laid her out? Wow, I didn't know that. But he's right on the money.
[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4154268]In a character sense, in so far as Peter's love for Gwen goes, it's probably not flattering. But if you look at the AU where Peter and Gwen have a "happy ending", I am thinking especially of Mark Waid's House of M Spiderman but there's also that episode in the Fox cartoon in the final season...you will find that the stories don't revolve around Peter and Gwen having this great life affirming love that's at the core of the Peter/MJ love story. Instead most of the time, the fantasies about Peter and Gwen involve the American Dream...you know Peter being successful, having social status and stability, a wife and homemaker at his beck and call.
In short, I think based on House of M: Spiderman, to the extent that Peter loved Gwen it has to do with the fact that she's rich and was his only ticket to marrying to a higher station. Gwen Stacy is the only girl Peter ever dated to come from a higher social background than him. The only real "out of his league" girl. Mary Jane is working class, as was Betty Brant, as was Felicia Hardy. And that applies I guess to the Post-OMD rebounds. Basically I think the entire subtext of the Peter and Gwen romance in the Lee-Romita era was social climbing and Peter was a gold digger. I mean if you think about the fact that after they get together, Peter and Gwen never have fights that he's practically a doormat who lets Gwen do whatever she wants. After she insulted Aunt May, May actually ran away and went for a long time not talking to Peter and Peter's response is "welp Gwen accidentally hurt Aunt May's response" when the response should be "Nobody smack talks my fam"...I mean that sucks.
Obviously none of this stuff will ever be acknowledged in page since it's all you can interpret and infer from the material, and obviously saying Spider-Man and Peter Parker was only dating Gwen because of her class and wealth would not really be heroic. Instead people are saying that Gwen was a science major (which was never really established or touched back then). But to the extent people are attracted to the Peter/Gwen romance and to the extent that romance and "why is this a thing" needs to be explained that's the most logical thing you can get from that. Spider-Man: Blue did do a better job but even then the Gwen there wasn't really a character.
IN Gwen's defense, Peter was a terrible boyfriend to her and fundamentally Peter lied to her repeatedly, and those lies, his not telling her his secret identity, got her killed.[/QUOTE]
So what I'm gathering, the short version, is they were extremely toxic for each other.
Roger Stern is on record of not liking Gwen, Felicia Hardy, or Mary Jane as Peter's girlfriends. He thinks MJ is the best of the three but that she and Peter would be better as friends. He once said that he thought that Peter hadn't really found his final girl yet, but he thinks it should be someone who has more common interests with him but he never elaborated on that.
[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4154280]So what I'm gathering, the short version, is they were extremely toxic for each other.[/QUOTE]
Every relationship Peter had with his girlfriends, with one exception, is toxic : Betty Brant, Gwen, Deb Whitman, Felicia Hardy, Carlie Cooper, Lian Tang.
Mary Jane is the only girl Peter has known with whom he has had a relationship that has been entirely honest with, never really lied to, and been entirely open with.
[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4154376]Roger Stern is on record of not liking Gwen, Felicia Hardy, or Mary Jane as Peter's girlfriends. He thinks MJ is the best of the three but that she and Peter would be better as friends. He once said that he thought that Peter hadn't really found his final girl yet, but he thinks it should be someone who has more common interests with him but he never elaborated on that.
Every relationship Peter had with his girlfriends, with one exception, is toxic : Betty Brant, Gwen, Deb Whitman, Felicia Hardy, Carlie Cooper, Lian Tang.
Mary Jane is the only girl Peter has known with whom he has had a relationship that has been entirely honest with, never really lied to, and been entirely open with.[/QUOTE]
Only one out that list I liked was Felicia. MJ it is.
I do wonder, back to the thread topic, how this limited series will handle that transition.
[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4154433]I do wonder, back to the thread topic, how this limited series will handle that transition.[/QUOTE]
We'll have some idea in Issue #1.
Peter was a teenager in the 60s, and if he aged in real-time then he's in his twenties in the '70s, thirties in '80s, forties in '90s, fifties in the '00s, and sixties in the 2010s, and not accounting for overlap and so on.
The main thing that I am curious is how are you going to deal with Mary Jane in particular. Because Mary Jane as a character was created to be the embodiment of the 60s an 70s originally. Hence Stan Lee's bizarre attempt at slang, her liberated and free spirited character and so on who had an interest in acting and so on, and then Roger Stern brought her back as a girl who had some professional success, and Defalco/Frenz made her out to be a runaway model but then Michelinie and others made her this super-famous supermodel and TV actress and so on. Then in the '90s she studied psychology for a bit at the university, and then she became an actress/model and then came to the stage, and then she became a night club owner, and after that Stark business executive. That parallels the trajectory Peter has had in terms of different jobs: I mean you can do the photographer thing, Peter being a high school teacher, Peter working for a R&D which he did many times in the 90s and then Horizon, and then Parker Industries.
I guess Peter could be a businessman in the 80s, you know as the embodiment of the Bill Gates/Steve Jobs and emerging computer revolution.
By the nineties, I kind of want to see Mary Jane as this semi-retired Sigourney Weaver kind of actress.
[QUOTE=LordUltimus;4154632]By the nineties, I kind of want to see Mary Jane as this semi-retired Sigourney Weaver kind of actress.[/QUOTE]
Or a writer and novelist like Carrie Fisher was. Carrie Fisher after Star Wars never found roles as good and so on...and she became a writer and script doctor. So that's a good analogy for an actress who had some success but that didn't lead to a long career and they had to switch streams. Mary Jane at heart is an artist and a creative person...she designed the costumes of Ricochet, Dusk, and others during Identity Crisis. And I tend to think that even if she had success as an actress/model for a long time, eventually when the parts and gigs dry up and they go in for younger girls, which happens to every actress and model certainly in that era thought given the Me Too movement and the current new wave of feminism this might well change...and I hope it does. I tend to think that when that happens, MJ would eventually move on and do something new. And becoming a writer would be a way to tie in to her journalist persona from the Ultimate Comics and others.
In the Spider-Girl comic, the older MJ was a business owner and a boss, and later worked as a student counselor using the psychological degree she earned. And becoming a business owner is what Spider-Man writers are doing once the '60s party girl and model/actress thing got played out.
[QUOTE=Revolutionary_Jack;4154376]Every relationship Peter had with his girlfriends, with one exception, is toxic : Betty Brant, Gwen, Deb Whitman, Felicia Hardy, Carlie Cooper, Lian Tang.
Mary Jane is the only girl Peter has known with whom he has had a relationship that has been entirely honest with, never really lied to, and been entirely open with.[/QUOTE]
Technically, he wasn't being completely honest with her doing their first relationship before she told him she already knew his secret. And I would argue he was honest and open to both Felicia and Bobbi when they were together, those relationships just went bad for completely different reasons, Felicia for being too sketchy and not wanting to commit, and Bobbi just not having alot in common with him.
[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4154433]Only one out that list I liked was Felicia. MJ it is.
I do wonder, back to the thread topic, how this limited series will handle that transition.[/QUOTE]
Yeah that's what I was thinking. I wonder if during the 80s period they'll go with him being together with Felicia and also having the black suit, and then the 90s will have him married with MJ.
[QUOTE=Inversed;4154764]Technically, he wasn't being completely honest with her doing their first relationship before she told him she already knew his secret. And I would argue he was honest and open to both Felicia and Bobbi when they were together, those relationships just went bad for completely different reasons, Felicia for being too sketchy and not wanting to commit, and Bobbi just not having alot in common with him.[/QUOTE]
I never really got that they didn't have a lot in common thing, because on paper they have plenty in common.
It's just they weren't really all that well written together...
[QUOTE]Yeah that's what I was thinking. I wonder if during the 80s period they'll go with him being together with Felicia and also having the black suit, and then the 90s will have him married with MJ.[/QUOTE]
That seems pretty reasonable if they're following the actual comic events of those eras, just with real-time aging.
I guess the 2000's will be where we see how Zdarsky handles the dissolution of the marriage, if he covers it.
peter has only had one non-toxic relationshop and it's with boomerang have the last issue be old man pete and fred chilling
[QUOTE=Frontier;4154766]That seems pretty reasonable if they're following the actual comic events of those eras, just with real-time aging. [/quote]
It's a 6 issue series, and Issue #1 is set in the 60s, Issue #2 is set in the 70s, so based on the one issue per decade pattern, I'd say Issue #6 would be the 2010s, the current decade which makes sense since 2019, year of publication, is the last year of the 2010s decade and by the time Issue #6 rolls out provided schedule doesn't slip, it would be August with just a few months left for 2020.
By the time the final issue rolls out Peter would be in his late 70s, near the same age Uncle Ben was when he died or maybe older.
Speaking of which would Aunt May die by issue #3 or #4? Because if Peter is allowed to age and grow up, she's not long for the world.
Zdarsky said he wanted to blend Spider-Man's history with real history. The problem is that some of Spider-Man's early work did touch on real history. Like Flash went to Vietnam and came back in the '70s. Real history took a back seat for the 80s and 90s for the most part but then you had the 9/11 issue, and after that you had the Peter meeting Obama thing. So Zdarsky is retreading old ground in Issue #1 and Issue #2, going into untapped territory for Issue #3 and Issue #4, and then in Issue #5 (2000s) where obviously 9/11/Obama/Occupy were the big things and all of that was touched on before.
I think the final issue will have the Trump Presidency, or maybe the Osborn Presidency. Peter dies of old age and Miles Morales will become the new Spider-Man.
I mean this is probably the last time you can do real-time aging Spider-Man. Spider-Man is approaching 60 years of its publication history (1962-2022). So you can play with 6 decades and show a full life. By 2062 on the other hand, it would be hard to do. There are still readers alive who were there for August 10, 1962 when AF#15 was out, but it won't be the case later on. Maybe in 2062, you can do Miles Morales: Life Story.
[QUOTE=WebSlingWonder;4153920]I'm not going to lie: Gwen Stacy was a horrible girlfriend to Peter. She constantly worried over him, then hated him, then hated Spider-Man, kept ghosting on him, slept with his best friend's father...why do people like her?[/QUOTE]
Can we have a beer sometime?
One factor we have to remember.
They are fictional.
They only as strong or weak as the writer making them. They are not real people but writers are and writers have bais, infunces good and bad and desires. I honestly felt both Mary Jane and Gwen had alot of negative aspects to them in how Stan Lee wrote them in the 60's. This I feel was due to how culture norms were and how women were advertised plus other factors that influenced Stan.
According to Gerry Conway Gwen and the Invisible woman (who had defensive or from the sideline powers and while a superhero was also normally a damsel still many times) was based on Stan's wife [url]https://comicbook.com/blog/2012/10/03/gerry-conway-blasts-gwen-stacy-criticizes-stan-lee-in-new-book-on-marvel/[/url] . Stan Lee want Peter and Gwen together but while I love Stan Lee's newspaper strip MJ much later in the future how he began writing some of the female characters during that time felt a bit like the Betty and Veronica style that Stan was probably influenced by (and 'Betty and Veronica' shifted by other writers in time) plus many point out how a few times Peter, Gwen, and MJ were jerks sometimes in the comics.
When Conway took over he want Peter and MJ together because he felt MJ was 'damaged' and so was Peter and only damaged people can get together. How he came to the belief MJ was damaged I'm not certain. If he had ideas that could make MJ showcased as damaged is one thing but based on how she was just before he took over is debatable. He wanted to kill Gwen to help boost sales and eliminate the opposition to his ship. Writers are people and fanfic writers do this also or make 'Ron the Death Eater' [url]https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RonTheDeathEater[/url] out of the love opposition to thier ships. If he didn't get the ok to kill Gwen he said he would have them break up.
To me that is a 'WHAT IF' and a preferable outcome in itself as then the tragedy of possibilities is removed and further writers could of taken Gwen in new directions, growth and charazations. Lactour made 617 Gwen which supposedly is just like a copy of 616 Gwen. From Lactour 617 Gwen lived and she and Peter separated at some point (though remain on good terms and friendships with Peter and MJ) and Gwen would eventually bond with the symbiote and become a superhero hero herself. Following in her late father's footsteps Gwen would join the NYPD and rise to the position of 'forensic detective' using her science geneticist skills and other factors becoming one of the best.
Conway favored MJ and I felt that of course help her as Conway felt positive to her and start her to a devipment in her character to becoming a MJ I began to love fully (I like the party girl for the fun aspect but Conways began the steps to have her go further). Honestly I would of found it interesting if sometimes writers think and ask questions to WHY they dislike a character then based on finding the answers think about how instead what types of character they would prefer and make the personal disliked for them likable and then draw an non straight pathway in character development the doesn't involved death or bashing but character journey arc.
By killing Gwen to remove opposition for his ship he remove the realm of possibilities for other writers to explore with her if they might of had ideas. The next writer after Conway I don't know his feelings to shipping or as a independent character to MJ or neutral and just decided to run with what he got. Then insutionzation that only 616 Peter and 616 MJ had to be set in which means for me I never really fear long term bad things for MJ as she has a sort of tenure now for this. Bendis flavored MJ as a character and the MJ and Peter ship though he didn't have anything against Gwen it seems and made a Gwen that many liked plus also a big fan/liked Kitty Pride/Shadow Cat and had her version become for the first and only time apart of the cast/world of Peter in the Multiverse. Other writers might try to buck the trend of the Multiverse and have a original or other person hook up with Peter (while the other gals found love with somebody else also). 'Chat' from Spider-man Marvel Adventures is a original character and never appear before or after a part of a Peter's world and it was this one Chat and Peter that was the true ship for the Multiverse (further showcasing while their might have constiants their are not true destinies or how characters as a individual might be overall). For me Chat was one of my favorite 'love interests' of a Peter and a Love Interest character presented. When people say 'MJ or Gwen' in terms of love interests I say: Chat.
Meanwhile for 'Gwen' being dead had locked her in for some minds that she was only the 'dead former love interest' and thus only presented as such with other Gwens but for other writers they knew that with Gwen away from the public eye not used in such a amount of time would mean creative freedom and allowing them to make alterations and in turn more imagination and showing new for their new Earth's Gwens to fit their narrative and charazations. I think the early 90's began having a wide range of Gwens more so then most characters presented in the Multiverse. In doing so 'Gwen' now has a advantage of have more diversity of showcasing the powers of the Multiverse with Gwens in each world possibly different (while MJ and Peter versions are usually stuck in certain ways due to how people are use in seeing them). This for me made the Multiverse Gwens fascinating as you don't really know whom you might find and directions. SOme Gwen I disliked and some I love. That is true for other character versions such as MJ but Gwen just seems more flexible for writers imagination and presentations. Tomboy/girly girly/princess/punk/ect.
One constant is that the Multiverse Peter's, Mj's and Gwen's (and now Miles starting to be incorporated into the fold) if shown to exist in a Multiverse will come together out of all the casts they could be/been placed in these three characters per Earth find each other and become bonded having a 'spiritual ties that bind' in a way. But for 'Gwen' and 'Peter' another bond it seems they share is tragedy. If 'Peter' lives 'Gwen' dies. If 'Gwen' lives 'Peter' dies. If 'Gwen' is actually resurrected than 'Peter' once agian is in danger.
This has been a theme that both 1610 Gwen and 65 Gwen has stated outright.
Gwen 1610 (after Peter died): "I'm cursed!" Gwen 65 (recent issue #4): "Death loves Gwen Stacy".
[IMG]https://2.bp.blogspot.com/-LgYNbFk9GOg/XDYKORht3hI/AAAAAAAACdo/9m4EAtJ3sIwQt6BFf6gU8rYqDdwQQ-WBwCHMYCw/s1600/RCO005.jpg[/IMG]
Both Gwens are not just referring to them dying but how death and Gwen are linked in some dark form of a spiritual relationship and those linked to her might be affected that Death loving Gwens eiter takes her or make Gwen immune but then others linked to her pay the death toll. Death in fact seems to have a grasp for all three as well plus setting the stage in some way for all Spiders in the Multiverse.
Peter often has a dead Uncle that transforms him into Spider-man (he might have powers but Peter didn't become 'Spider-man' hero till usually that major death impacting him and he makes the choice)
MJ always has a reboot in priorities and directions and thinking per death (on 616 it was written by Conway i think that when her mother died it jump started MJ down a road of party girl lifestyle and no held down by any man but then when Gwen died it hit MJ and she then felt 'the party ends eventually' and set her on another path that had MJ change and Peter and MJ to come together then with Flash's death made her recall how time is felting and to decide to try agian with Peter).
Also the 'House of M Gwen' put her life on the line for Peter equipping web shooters and going out to find and save him so I can see Gwen and Peter truly loving each other and not for 'social power' that would make Peter a jerk in that regard.
Recently due to Spider-Gwen of earth-65 and now Spider-man Enter the Spider-verse many new generations know Gwen as Spider-Woman and set towards that character and thinking fate vs the 616 version and fate so that diresity of charazations for multiverse Gwen's might not be in danger but on the flip side now new Multiverse Gwens made either now some people see fated towards dying or become a superhero it seems based on how you first known her version set in (one writer making a Multiverse might do both killing a Gwen/falling but then by comics magic/science resurrecting her into a superhero/rising)
This 'life story' earth version will most likely follow the traditional 616 pathways and charazations despite being a different world thus possibilities of different choice and charazations and 'destinites' open but most likely this new version gwen made will die in the same way 616 did and not devatied. Still it is possible the writer might decide to pull a trick and play on our expectations instead but I feel low on those odds. Curious how MJ might be presented older in the time going by as I don't recall seeing older looking MJs in the comics as even old Peter Parker had a young looking picture of MJ by his bed vs them both old.