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Steve
Writers have had trouble with Steve. What can they do to make him interesting? I mean come on. Your telling me that with all the time Steve and Diana spend he wouldnÂ’t have give knowledge on certain magical things or Diana teaching Steve to fight like a amazon? Steve using any magical weapon to try at least fight some of her foes. We can get a good version of Steve itÂ’s happened.
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[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4508215]What can they do to make him interesting? [/QUOTE]
Giving him a personality would be a good start.
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I think the key to making Steve work isn't in his skillset but in his personality.
He's already a badass soldier who's worked with Argus and the League. Sure, some Amazon training would make him even more effective and unique and there's definitely some appeal to a "military battle mage" sort of direction, but that's not gonna get you very far outside of action sequences.
No, what Steve really needs is character development. We need to see what his hobbies are, what his favorite music/food/vacation spot is. We need to see what he does when he's not at work and not with Diana. Does he play an instrument? Does he like art? Play video games? Baseball? Hunting? Fishing? How does he fill his hours? We need to see his family and friends, his own supporting cast beyond Diana (the Oddfellows are a great start, but again, tied up in Steve's military aspects). We need to know what his character traits are; what are his flaws, his goals, his hopes, his virtues, etc, and those need to go beyond the basic archetypes of "love interest" and "good soldier."
And all of that takes time to develop, especially when comics these days spend more time on the main plot and action and less time on the characters' down time.
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One thing in the early days is he did like cooking, did like working with children. He loved to travel and work with people. The two best example of Steve are movie Steve and LoWW. He is wide eye, adventurous, quick to act. His flaws could be he is also loyal to his job at times despite what the military has done. Now outside of military flaws can be who be truth and maybe he is bias toward certain things not something racist just a little bias. Something like when he works with his sister he often he is bias towards the softball team because he has trained his niece
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[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4508275]One thing in the early days is he did like cooking, did like working with children. He loved to travel and work with people. The two best example of Steve are movie Steve and LoWW. He is wide eye, adventurous, quick to act. His flaws could be he is also loyal to his job at times despite what the military has done. Now outside of military flaws can be who be truth and maybe he is bias toward certain things not something racist just a little bias. Something like when he works with his sister he often he is bias towards the softball team because he has trained his niece[/QUOTE]
I definitely think the idea of Steve being a spy works well in conjunction with Diana's whole "truth" shtick. It works for creating tension between them since they view the world differently (and the movie played on that very well). But as important as it is for Steve to have traits, hobbies, and beliefs that compliment and/or challenge Diana's, he also needs opinions and views that aren't based on how they'll impact his girlfriend but are "his" alone. If that makes sense?
Back in the day, a lot of his hobbies (like cooking) seemed to be taking female social roles (keeping in mind the era these were written) and putting them on a guy. And honestly I think that still works today, just to a much lesser extent. It's not weird anymore for a guy to enjoy cooking or taking care of kids. But it does add to his character and it does play against traditional gender roles, which might not be as firmly set as they once were but are still in the public consciousness, and that helps balance his "military alpha male" archetype and makes him a little more rounded.
But I think you need to go further than that too. Steve can't just be a soldier who likes "womanly" things. What's his favorite sport? Does he care about sports at all? Who's his favorite team? Does he have an eye for art or an ear for music? Does he pay attention to politics or does he just follow orders? What are his political views? Is he left, right, or centrist? Stuff like that, which is "gender neutral" needs to be included too, I think.
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Maybe he is a baseball and basketball type of guy. He like classical, jazz, rocks and blues kind of guy. He tries to be neutral on political views. But hates when the military or government going after the innocent people despite being illegals l. Maybe another big thing is his religious views
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Oh I didn't consider what his religion might be. That's a fascinating idea, given who he hangs out with. How do you justify your religion when your girlfriend is literally a god (or demigod, depending on the continuity and era) from a different faith?
As for his politics....I think I'd actually make him something *other* than a centrist. Most heroes are apolitical or centrist so they can appeal to the widest possible audience but supporting characters have more freedom and I think it might be interesting to use Steve to explore some topics. Nothing too heavy handed of course, no need to go all-in on the commentary (and few writers can do it well these days and even fewer readers can see an opinion they disagree with without losing their sh*t).
I dunno, just for the sake of novelty I might want to see Steve as a conservative. Not the crazy BS the Republican party has devolved into, but right leaning without toeing the party line. Of the handful of heroes who do express political beliefs, 99% of them are left leaning (which is fine with me since I am too) but it'd be interesting to see a character speak from the other side of things. And since political policy has a big impact on the military and a soldier's life Steve probably *should* have opinions of his own rather than ignoring it (I never understood some guys who didn't pay attention while serving; those politicians decide when and where we go! How can you *not* pay attention to that?). But this isn't anything I'm really hungry to see either, so Steve could remain totally apolitical and it won't bother me. Still, given how Diana's story is so deeply wrapped up in social issues and politics it'd seem odd for her main love interest to have nothing to say on the matter.
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When you mean conservative. Actually how much because Steve for many years has been large support of women's rights and immigrants rights. So a conservative with some left-leaning views. Now for religion, I neither thought about him as an atheist or Christan. However, given the story, I think an atheist would work better. However, without being Diana's foes what should his flaws be? I mean yea your girlfriend is demigoddess but I feel that would be too easy. I feel that Steve due to him hanging out with Diana enough times would be interesting to see him actually holding his own a few times due to him knowing how to use certain artifacts. Now not for super long but long enough to where it's clear that he isn't someone you should mess with. Plus the Amazon training would make him pretty much a superhuman. One thing would be him finding out he killed innocent people. That someone like Waller or someone else had tricked him into committing some crimes. However, whatever flaws? PTSD but that is also linked to miltary.
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How should Steve feel about the Amazons? Even after leaving?
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[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4508377]When you mean conservative. Actually how much because Steve for many years has been large support of women's rights and immigrants rights[/QUOTE]
Well, despite what the current Republican party indicates, support of equal rights for women and immigrants isn't actually a left-only view. I have a number of conservative friends who totally support equally for all (even gay people! :D ). But if you want to say it's a left-only view, okay. Can't really argue against that given how modern Republicans act.
But yes, I'd maybe write Steve as a conservative with some left-leaning views. Only fools toe the party line completely, most people might consider themselves on one side of the aisle but still agree with the other side on certain topics. And beyond that, it would make him look more rounded as a character (it's actually a shorthand trick for character development).
I think where I might hone in on Steve being conservative, and I've given this absolutely no thought at all so Im just firing from the hip, would be support for smaller government and States rights (which no one talks about anymore but is generally considered a right-leaning view), responsible fiscal spending (which again, neither party really bothers with anymore, stupid $15 Billion wall) and gun rights. Not that I'd want to see Steve toeing the NRA's moronic hard line but I'd make him a firm believer and defender of the 2nd (but not blind about it, he'd probably approve of background checks and whatnot). I might also play into the immigration debate and have Steve be totally fine with immigrants coming into the country legally (paying their taxes, getting citizenship, etc) but have less tolerance for those who do it illegally. I wouldnt have him support crap like separating families and not keeping track of whose kid is where (what a crime against humanity that BS is!), nothing that extreme, but I could see Steve saying "Come to America, by all means....but do it the right way or not at all."
[QUOTE]Now for religion, I neither thought about him as an atheist or Christan. However, given the story, I think an atheist would work better.[/QUOTE]
Maybe Jewish?
Whatever his religion might or might not be, I definitely agree with you that you could pull some really interesting stories out of him having to reflect on and confront his faith after meeting Diana and discovering the Greek gods are real. Maybe he thinks they're just very powerful beings and not actual gods, but even that would force him to consider his beliefs, which could be a great exploration of his character and a quality story. I've often wanted to see DC (and Marvel) tackle this issue; in a world where regular men can become god-like and there are actually gods out there, how does that impact religion around the world? Are there temples to Thor in the MU? Stuff like that yknow?
[QUOTE]However, without being Diana's foes what should his flaws be?[/QUOTE]
I think you can do a lot with the differences between how Steve views the world and how Diana does. Steve's pragmatic and utilitarian, Diana's an idealist. Stuff like that, which has been talked about before. But as for "Steve only" flaws that have nothing to do with Diana or his job? I think you can have a nice selection of weird and silly flaws (he loves to play guitar, but is really damn bad at it?) and more serious ones (maybe he has a temper and can't think about things rationally when he's angry....but not to an abusive level or anything of course). Maybe Steve's been a spy for so long he's become a habitual liar, even about things he doesn't need to lie about? Maybe he drinks more than he should, like a MCU Tony Stark level of drinking, but not a "Demon in the Bottle" comic Iron Man level of drinking? At this point Steve's largely a blank canvas so I feel like you could insert almost any medium-sized flaw into his character and make it work.
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[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4508503]How should Steve feel about the Amazons? Even after leaving?[/QUOTE]
Respect, admiration, and not a small amount of awe I would think. They're pretty fantastic, after all.
But this could be a potential divide between Steve and Diana too. Maybe Steve agrees with much of the Amazon philosophy (a lot of it is basic common sense and basic respect) but he isn't down with their idea of "loving submission." I mean, even I hesitate about that one the way it's often been defined by the Amazons. Loving submission to my wife? Yes, she is my sun and (along with our kids) the reason I do anything. Loving submission to a caring and considerate governing body/authority? Not a chance in hell.
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I think the trouble with Steve is less the lack of details as it is with the lack of personality. Original Steve was crafted as the audience self-insert character, and those tend to be rather bland. But the Wonder Woman comic has evolved since then, as has the genre, but he is still stuck there.
We didn't get much personal information about Steve in the movie, but we got the most important parts: he got some ideals, some personality, and most importantly a story arc of his own.
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Going back to Perez’s steve. His mother seems to be a big part of his life. What if she didn't die? His mother telling him stories of these creatures and women. I don't know I feel some parallels of the two should be important. Diana’s mother and Steve moms as important. She is the reason he wanted to be a pilot. Unlike Diana his father is important but maybe he comes from a divorced family. I don't know what to do with his dad unless we add his movie dads origins too.
I often wonder since we don't get too see a lot of Steve’s backstory, what would make something interesting to do with him? What if his mother was pregnant with steve? I don't know I find this one panel of Diana calling Steve her secret boy. But that would be too easy.
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Steve's backstory? Hmmm.
Well first off I think I'd want to avoid the "military family" thing. Almost every soldier in comics comes from a long line of soldiers (most of whom died before their time). It's a solid route and everything but it's like the basic bitch of comic book solider origins.
I definitely agree with making Steve's mother important to him. Don't think I'd do anything spectacular with her, or Steve's father. Just make them good, normal people living good, normal lives who had a son who joined a cause and stumbled into the greatest adventure and woman anyone could hope to come across.
But Steve's mom.....yeah, there's something viable to work with there. Hell, just giving them a strong, healthy relationship in the current day would be almost novel by comic book standards! I'll kick some ideas around but at the moment the only thing I got is that Steve's mom adores Diana but does not treat her any differently than she would any other girlfriend. Steve's mom is not impressed by Diana's royal heritage, god-like powers (or god status, if that's where Diana's at in the story), etc. So many people in the DCU (and real world) don't see Diana the person, they see Diana the icon. And I'd make Steve's mother an exception to that. She'd love Diana, because Di is lovable as hell, but she'd still make Diana clean her own plate after dinner and make her wear a coat outside because it's cold.
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The only reason why I mentioned military is what Perez did with the mother. I liked the idea of Diana being named not by a God but by someone the Amazons respected. So something like Nessie and her family?
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......Im drawing a total blank on what Perez did. Been a very, very long time since I read any of his WW run. Refresh my memory?
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Diana Trevor(Steve’s mom) much like her son crashed landed. She helped the Amazons fight doing the doom gate and died. Due to this Hippolyta names Diana due to Steve’s mom
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Oh yeah, that's ringing a bell now, thanks for the reminder.
Yeah, hard pass from me on that. I generally dislike it when connections are retroactively added into a character's backstory. I tend to really hate the whole "Oh, you thought it was this, but all these years you never knew it was actually that!" or the "here's the childhood friend you've never heard of before who was always there but somehow off-panel and now they're a villain! Oh noes!" stuff.
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The only reason why I said that is I actually think it would be nice not to have Diana name after a God but someone the Amazons respect. But yea. Also, I do think Steve should hold his own on some of Diana's foe. Maybe even surprise Cheetah a few times. Not winning but just hold his own. For example, Diana gave Steve some of her magical items. He trains with them and uses them on her. I mean what if Steve uses the atlas sandals or a few others.
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[QUOTE=Psy-lock;4508250]Giving him a personality would be a good start.[/QUOTE]
Word.
..........
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It's difficult to give a supporting character long-lasting development in today's stories, especially since Wonder Woman hasn't been given a strong foundation compared to the other two in the trinity of heroes. They keep half-assing Diana's development, so they'll do even worse with Steve.
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So far rebirth has avoid the trope of rebooting her every time a new writer comes in
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If Steve is to be a conservative. What would some of his views be? Especially if it’s to conflict with Diana’s?
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Maybe it’s just me, but I’ve never known a conservative with a personality I’ve liked personally:p
I’d start with the qualities that Diana admires in him and go from there. He’s a normal human willing to fight for noble causes. Superman does the same thing, but Steve has the edge over him because he doesn’t have super powers. Unfortunately, that doesn’t do much to differentiate him from someone like Batman, who also doesn’t have super powers (plot armor notwithstanding). Steve doesn’t have the wealth, the high level knowledge of various academics or fighting styles, and isn’t the playboy the ladies lust after. How would you make him different than that?
I want the focus on Steve to be that people in the future more naturally associate he and Diana as an item, rather than pursuing wonderbat or superwonder ships.
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[QUOTE=Amazon Swordsman;4523054] Unfortunately, that doesn’t do much to differentiate him from someone like Batman, who also doesn’t have super powers (plot armor notwithstanding). Steve doesn’t have the wealth, the high level knowledge of various academics or fighting styles, and isn’t the playboy the ladies lust after. How would you make him different than that?[/QUOTE]
Ummm...no. Just no.
Women don't 'lust after the guy who has money and sleeps around.' Guys want to *be* that guy (Batman), but for women? That's a male fantasy that women really 'want' that kind of man.
Batman is a dark, paranoid brooding man who is obsessed with justice to the point that he neglects his normal life. Steve couldn't be more different as he's generally shown as being the 'average man who became a hero.' If you were to compare him to another hero, Captain America is more on the right track. He's much more positive and upbeat, doing what he can to help others despite the obvious risk to himself *without* all the armor/toys/vehicles that Batman uses.
Batman doesn't leave time for a love life while Steve makes the time for Diana. He genuinely cares for her and loves her and doesn't bury his feelings in his obsessions and gruff, don't-give-a-damn personality.
Given a choice between a wealthy playboy or a compassionate monogamous hero? It's the nice guy every time ;)
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I wonder if we want Steve to be more flesh out, his family needs to come back. He had a sister and a niece. His hobbies outside of the military were cooking and helping children. We need more of him just interacting with normal people. I still think him learning Amazonian training would be nice. The first man in modern history.
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[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4521528]If Steve is to be a conservative. What would some of his views be? Especially if it’s to conflict with Diana’s?[/QUOTE]
I posted a bit on the idea of Steve as a conservative on the first page....but views that conflict with Diana's?
I imagine if Steve were a fan of small, non-intrusive government that would likely seem very odd and counter-intuitive to Diana. Her background as the heir of a matriarchy, and the way her mother ran the Island, probably leaves her feeling that rulers/leaders should involve themselves in their subject's day-to-day to ensure their lives are productive and happy. Steve's desire for government to stay out of everyone's lives would definitely put them at odds on the topic.
I've never given Diana's thoughts on abortion any consideration at all, but just as a knee-jerk reaction I'd guess she's pro-choice, due to women's rights if nothing else (not to mention the multitude of complex, unique, and personal reasons a person might have to go through this...but I may be projecting my bias here). If Steve followed the conservative line on the issue that'd put them at odds there too.
Given that most Amazons are trained in combat I don't see Diana having a problem with the 2nd, though she and Steve might disagree about where, precisely, you draw the line with gun control. But I see both of them being *mostly* in agreement on the issue; people should be able to defend themselves but some kind of control needs to be put in place to keep weapons out of the wrong hands. Still, they could likely argue about the details, whether the issue actually is a mental health problem, etc.
If Steve lands close to the current party line he and Diana may also disagree about wealth inequality and the rights of the poor. Diana, obviously, is all about charity and lifting others up, and while Steve is too he might be a little closer to "pull yourself up by your own bootstraps" than our incredibly compassionate Diana. However, like with gun control I suspect these two would agree with each other in large part, and just disagree on the specifics.
Given her connection and reverence for nature climate change *could* be a point of contention between Diana and Steve too.....but I don't think Steve is stupid enough to deny it's happening.
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Going with golden age Steve he did a lot of charity work also. With the wealthy, I feel both of them should fall in the same line. That there is too much of it. Just how to stop that. I agree at first with climate change until Steve is in a situation. Maybe he went somewhere has a kid but comes back and due to climate change, much of what he loved is ruined. If we being the advance amazonian tech than Diana would know how the amazons use tech only has last option or just to harm never to kill.
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The Steve in the 2017 film said, in response to Diana asking him why he was fighting in [B][COLOR="#006400"]World War I,[/COLOR][/B] that he had [I]'tried doing nothing',[/I] and that it didn't work for him.
Was he the scion of a wealthy American family, who had left behind a life of leisure, a paradise of the capitalist sort, ..to confront evil in the larger world? Was it an [B]American dynasty[/B] with dark secrets in its past? Was this Steve's family profiting from the manufacture of weapons, being used in the war, ..and what did that compel Steve to do? What or whom in Steve Trevor's backstory makes him want to believe in angels - corrupt father, brother, mother? In that moment, there was the suggestion of depth and of history...just a suggestion, but brilliantly done!
I think the Steve in the comic needs a similar backstory and motivation. Is [I]'Steve Trevor'[/I] (it can't be) even his real name? Might it be [I]Cale, Domaine, Rich[/I] ..or [I]Brilyant?[/I] What context (meaning) does Steve's backstory set up for his relationship, with Diana? Might there be a brother, who happens to be a sinister industrialist, big-game hunter, politician or high-ranking military official? Might Steve and his brother be rivals or enemies? Steve needs a backstory for the comics...
Cuz he's wa-aay boring, right now.
In defining Steve, it might help to bring back Keith Griggs, who was his rival in the 1970s. Keith liked Diana's smart, resourceful secret ID, preferring her company to Wonder Woman's.
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Other than the film reason. Why should Steve want to join the military? Should he just come from a family or rather he feels he can make a difference?
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[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4544241]Other than the film reason. Why should Steve want to join the military? Should he just come from a family or rather he feels he can make a difference?[/QUOTE]
I'd personally avoid the over-used "military family" troupe. And I wouldn't go with some noble reason either; no sense of duty or serving his country or anything. I'd give Steve a "real" reason for joining, one that is more in-line with most soldier's reasons.
You could say he joined for college money (I'd perhaps make him an aspiring art major, or something else not considered alpha male macho) but once he's in the service he decides he likes it and abandons his ideas of being an artist/whatever.
Perhaps he joined to learn a trade, but quickly ended up doing more exotic things than mechanic work or filing papers in an office?
My personal favorite is that Steve just wanted to travel and see the world. That plays into his adventurous spirit, he ends up getting more than he bargained for when he crashes onto the Island, and it's one of the most common reasons I've heard for people to sign up (though that was twenty years ago, who knows why people join today?).
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I don't understand why so many people want to nerf Steve and make him softer and gentler? How does that add anything to the mythos? The Wonder Woman book should challenge conventions and preconceived notions. He's best as a he-man master spy/soldier that's completely comfortable with a woman more powerful than him, someone with a noble soul and progressive political leanings normally reserved for an artist or poet. It's that dichotomy that makes him interesting. That said he shouldn't be constantly tied to Wonder Woman, he should appear in several books as head of A.R.G.U.S. and be DC's premier expert on espionage and the superhero community.
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[QUOTE=Koriand'r;4545560]I don't understand why so many people want to nerf Steve and make him softer and gentler? How does that add anything to the mythos? The Wonder Woman book should challenge conventions and preconceived notions. He's best as a he-man master spy/soldier that's completely comfortable with a woman more powerful than him, someone with a noble soul and progressive political leanings normally reserved for an artist or poet. It's that dichotomy that makes him interesting. That said he shouldn't be constantly tied to Wonder Woman, he should appear in several books as head of A.R.G.U.S. and be DC's premier expert on espionage and the superhero community.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. What should be his skills? Not just his military skills but in general. I mean DC forgets many times Steve is a full character. He has likes and dislikes. I mean what should he get from being around the Amazons and Diana? One thing that also forgets is despite Diana being stronger than him/ How should Steve deal with Diana's stronger rogues? If Diana couldn't get there in time. I wouldn't mind at times Steve can somewhat slow the enemy down.
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[QUOTE=Koriand'r;4545560]I don't understand why so many people want to nerf Steve and make him softer and gentler? How does that add anything to the mythos? The Wonder Woman book should challenge conventions and preconceived notions. He's best as a he-man master spy/soldier that's completely comfortable with a woman more powerful than him, someone with a noble soul and progressive political leanings normally reserved for an artist or poet. It's that dichotomy that makes him interesting. That said he shouldn't be constantly tied to Wonder Woman, he should appear in several books as head of A.R.G.U.S. and be DC's premier expert on espionage and the superhero community.[/QUOTE]
I think he was in Event Leviathan, so there's that. At least he showed up somewhere that kinda gives him something to do other than wait around for Diana to come home.
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I keep thinking. What if one reason is because Steve felt protesting wasn’t enough? That Steve went to join the US military was to also fight corruption in the US military? Yea he wanted to see the world. I also feel due to this he should know some languages
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[QUOTE=AmiMizuno;4551311]I keep thinking. [B]What if one reason is because Steve felt protesting wasn’t enough? That Steve went to join the US military was to also fight corruption in the US military? [/B]Yea he wanted to see the world. I also feel due to this he should know some languages[/QUOTE]
That would explain his switching branches, he wanted to make as many changes from within as he could.
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Should Steve make any changes to what branches he is in? Maybe he joined Argus not only because he is one of the best but also to keep an eye on Waller?
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What teams do you guys think Steve would fit well in?
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[QUOTE=Koriand'r;4545560]I don't understand why so many people want to nerf Steve and make him softer and gentler? How does that add anything to the mythos? The Wonder Woman book should challenge conventions and preconceived notions. He's best as a he-man master spy/soldier that's completely comfortable with a woman more powerful than him, someone with a noble soul and progressive political leanings normally reserved for an artist or poet. It's that dichotomy that makes him interesting. That said he shouldn't be constantly tied to Wonder Woman, he should appear in several books as head of A.R.G.U.S. and be DC's premier expert on espionage and the superhero community.[/QUOTE]
I agree. To broaden his appeal this is the way to go. To do the opposite would make him an even more difficult character for fans to latch on to. This is very similar to the way Pine portrayed him in the movie. He seemed pretty capable on his own, but also had no hangups about letting a woman he knows is far more powerful than he is take the lead.