[QUOTE=Aula_Magna;1507445]As a woman, I would sooner forgive my mother's murderer than a man who slapped my bum...[/QUOTE]
Hyperbole aside I dont think Wonder Woman would agree with you.
im just supposing you want to see all the current Amazons dead? Their crimes must surely rate as unforgiveable. Donna Troys especially.
All drama is derive from a level of conflict, and romantic drama is no different.
Conflict in romance can come from two sources. Either external [wave to Romeo and Juliet] or internal [David Addison and Maddie Hayes say hi].
Realistically how do you stop two of the most incredible beings on the planet being together if that's what they want? The problem is its difficult to have internal conflict if both characters in a romance are written as saints.
At some point they are [B]both[/B] going to have to make mistakes in the long road they have to travel, but in the end it will make Diana and Steve's romance that much more rewarding.
[QUOTE=brettc1;1507464]Hyperbole aside I dont think Wonder Woman would agree with you.
im just supposing you want to see all the current Amazons dead? Their crimes must surely rate as unforgiveable. Donna Troys especially.[/QUOTE]
well she forgave the amazons and will probably forgive donna troy, she also was ok with that aliens murdering people. so a slap on the butt shouldn't be the worse crime committed agains ww
Its not a crime. I'm not saying he did anything to deserve to be burned at the stake. While I thought he was over-the-top at the beginning, as time went on I started to find him fun. Its not about any of that. It just appeared as if the intention early on was for Azz to make his childish behvavior somehow charming to Diana, which would have been a huge mistake and something editorial was right to squash. The message that this strong, honorable woman would fall for a guy who acts like he's 12 would have just been inexplicable. His intentions were not malicious, but he was disrespectful and immature nonetheless.
[QUOTE=brettc1;1507464]Hyperbole aside I dont think Wonder Woman would agree with you.
im just supposing you want to see all the current Amazons dead? Their crimes must surely rate as unforgiveable. Donna Troys especially.[/QUOTE]
After their battle against the First Born, the Stymphalian birds and the slaughter fest that was GodKiller, I'm surprised there are Amazons left. It's time to go fetch some baby gravy and replenish their numbers!
Now would be a good time for the great warmongering nation of USA to use their crimes as a pretext to invade Themyscira, steal their resources, kill them all while their pregnant and at their most vulnerable and pin it on ISIS, while Superman's still got Wonder Woman's undivided attention!
And since Hades is without a King, the Amazons would conquer the Underworld and live there.
[QUOTE=LoveStar;1507339]There's a double standard here. Orion isn't a cute little puppy. He is a grown man who is disrespectful and think it's funny and cute. Making excuses and accepting that is not right at all.
Clark hasn't acted this way until his life turned to hell. I've already said I think this whole Truth storyline with all 4 books is contrived and the conflict is petty. Over reactions and over dramatic.
But Diana has not shown any sign of being obsessive. The scene is like an old movie or something, the last kiss before the tragic ending.[/QUOTE]
Orion isn't a puppy, but for sure he is the dog of war bam dumm tsss
it's not because his life turned into hell that he have to treat people who love him badly. I always thought he was relapse on the relationship.
orion life is like hell, he looks like a demon, has to constantly police himself to avoid rage episodes, darkseid son, not being good enough for his father. I'm not big on wonder woman dating orion, but I identify myself with him at least about looks and his relation to his father.
[QUOTE=brettc1;1507417]I don't thinks its entirely fair to suggest that my wife lacks self respect because she was okay with Princess Leia falling for Han Solo.[/QUOTE]
God forbid a woman fall for a less than perfect guy!!!
Conflict of falling in love with a less than perfect guy is a good one to explore. women that Fall for those types aren't lacking self respect, they just fall. it's very understable that people will fall or feel attraction for problematic types. It's the rules of attraction, it just happen.
[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;1507548]Its not a crime. I'm not saying he did anything to deserve to be burned at the stake. While I thought he was over-the-top at the beginning, as time went on I started to find him fun. Its not about any of that. It just appeared as if the intention early on was for Azz to make his childish behvavior somehow charming to Diana, which would have been a huge mistake and something editorial was right to squash. The message that this strong, honorable woman would fall for a guy who acts like he's 12 would have just been inexplicable. His intentions were not malicious, but he was disrespectful and immature nonetheless.[/QUOTE]
Despite what some folks here may say, though, there seems to be a lot of mileage to get out of women who "fix up" the men they are with. 50 Shades of Grey may be not be viewed a great stride forward for feminism by many, and I might agree with them. Nevertheless, the success of the book series is strong evidence that women at least like to read about the flawed hero who is saved from his own failings by the virtues of the heroine.
Again, I am not saying this message is a good one. But the evidence is that can be, at least, a very profitable one.
[QUOTE=Aula_Magna;1507429]As a woman with self respect, it pains me to see a feminist icon reduced to a witless, codependent imbecile who's a burden to her man and less than him in every way imaginable, in a comic where she's not treated equal to him[/QUOTE]
I would agree with the others - time after time in the brief history of this book WW has been given equal or better billing than SM - look at the fight with Zod/ Faora or even with Magog / Circe
[QUOTE=brettc1;1507500] but in the end it will make Diana and Steve's romance that much more rewarding.[/QUOTE]
You presume Diana and Steve will get together again?
[QUOTE=brettc1;1507585]Despite what some folks here may say, though, there seems to be a lot of mileage to get out of women who "fix up" the men they are with. 50 Shades of Grey may be not be viewed a great stride forward for feminism by many, and I might agree with them. Nevertheless, the success of the book series is strong evidence that women at least like to read about the flawed hero who is saved from his own failings by the virtues of the heroine.
Again, I am not saying this message is a good one. But the evidence is that can be, at least, a very profitable one.[/QUOTE] But the movie wasn't a big hit!! It ashame that anyone would find that a positive message to send to young women and young girls! I thought it was insulting and demeaning for WW to have to put up with his behavior, and for Azz. to disrespect WW by making her accept being called by a bodypart " legs". I think it shows no matter how far we think we have come when it come to treating women with respect and as equals, we still have a long way to go!! I think Azz. run with WW prove that!! His run also shows that there are still a lot of women with little to no respect for themselves that have self esteem issues!! As least to me no self respecting women would ever accept being treated that way!! There was never anything funny or charming about the way Orion was treating WW!! That was one of the big reasons I stopped reading her solo comic!! The way WW was made to put up with Orion in Azz. run caused me to lost respect for WW and the writer!
[QUOTE=chlj1;1507682]But the movie wasn't a big hit!! It ashame that anyone would find that a positive message to send to young women and young girls! I thought it was insulting and demeaning for WW to have to put up with his behavior, and for Azz. to disrespect WW by making her accept being called by a bodypart " legs". I think it shows no matter how far we think we have come when it come to treating women with respect and as equals, we still have a long way to go!! I think Azz. run with WW prove that!! His run also shows that there are still a lot of women with little to no respect for themselves that have self esteem issues!! As least to me no self respecting women would ever accept being treated that way!! There was never anything funny or charming about the way Orion was treating WW!! That was one of the big reasons I stopped reading her solo comic!! The way WW was made to put up with Orion in Azz. run caused me to lost respect for WW and the writer![/QUOTE]
The movie cost $40 million to make and grossed $565 million world wide. Hardly a financial catastrophe.
What's more, if you go to IMDB and analyze its ratings the data is extremely interesting.
[url]http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2322441/ratings?ref_=tt_ov_rt[/url]
Although the movie only scores 4.2 out of 10 overall, it gets its BEST scores [averages of 5.8, 5.1 and 5.2] from female reviewers under 18, 18-29 and 30-44. It's overall low score is attributable to average scores of between 3 and 4 for MALES reviewing it, and the fact that male reviewers make up about 60% of the reviews. It's average scores among females is 5.2. Still not great, but not a resounding rejection of the story line either.
What this may suggest is this - no matter how much we think we have changed the attitudes of people generally, that there are significant number of women who DON'T see a problem with the virtuous female lead paired against the flawed [and sometimes deeply flawed] male romantic interest.
Or, to put it at is most colloquial - [I]"A lot of girls still like bad boys."[/I]
I'm not defending that premise, I am just looking at the data and making logical conclusions. I don't believe that the majority of women enjoy being in abusive relationships by any means. Nor should they.
However, in the same way that lots of males seem to gravitate towards stories about guys who have super powers or punch out villains, lots of women seem to gravitate towards stories about a woman who falls in love with a flawed man who is initially abrasive towards her but is ultimately "saved" by his relationship with her. For these women, fixing an attractive but somehow broken man with love is like a super-power they dream of having.
You can argue the logic or the political correctness, but it's difficult to argue the figures from the box-office and book sales. And I don't just mean this story.
Looking at it that way, Azzarello is hardly a devil in disguise for writing this kind of story. It happens quite a lot, and has even appeared in Wonder Woman before during the Kanigher years, though in that case I think it was far, far more demeaning to the books hero.
[QUOTE=Sacred Knight;1507548]Its not a crime. I'm not saying he did anything to deserve to be burned at the stake. While I thought he was over-the-top at the beginning, as time went on I started to find him fun. Its not about any of that. It just appeared as if the intention early on was for Azz to make his childish behvavior somehow charming to Diana, which would have been a huge mistake and something editorial was right to squash.[/quote]
If that was his intent, I agree that it would have been a huge mistake and that the editors were right to squash it.And it may be the case, for all I know. But I'm trying to understand how the book hints at this intent. Can you think of a specific instance in which she seemed charmed by that kind of behavior? Diana appreciates his encouragement at the end of 18, but when he tries to turn that into flirting, she immediately gets disgusted and shuts him down. Later (but still fairly "early on"--in issue 19), she punches him across the room for remaining disrespectful after her warnings, and she yells at him even in the middle of battle for seemingly calling her "baby." Yeah, she kisses him and...you know...but in context, I don't think this communicates that she was "charmed." More like the opposite--however inappropriate her means may have been, she was turning the tables on him as a way of objecting to his disrespect. So the idea that she was putting up with his disrespect, let along being charmed by it, mostly seemed to me to be a myth among fans.
I do realize that Azz hinted (or maybe even said) in interviews that he wanted there to be a relationship between Orion and Diana, but we don't know whether, how, or how early in the run Orion's characterization would have been different if a relationship had been greenlit. Thinking about the timing of issues 15 and 16 relative to the beginning of the WW/SM relationship, I think it's likely that by the time Azz had Orion slap Diana's butt, he already knew that the "relationship" between those two characters was going nowhere. Would he have written Orion differently even at that early point if he thought he was going to be able to get them together? Who knows?
The bad example, which would have reinforced the dangerous "I'll fix my man" myth, would have been letting Diana enter a relationship with the unreformed Orion in the hope that he would [U]later[/U] reform.In theory, I wouldn't necessarily have minded if Orion had [U]first[/U] reformed and grown up and [U]then[/U] Diana had entered a relationship with him --though a convincing "Orion grows up" narrative might have taken too long and/or taken up too much of the story space, which is why I say "in theory." On the whole, I'm glad that the relationship between Diana and Orion didn't happen. (See? I don't think all Azz's ideas were good--just the ones that made it to the page. :) )
[QUOTE=Silvanus;1507880]
The bad example, which would have reinforced the dangerous "I'll fix my man" myth, would have been letting Diana enter a relationship with the unreformed Orion in the hope that he would [U]later[/U] reform.In theory, I wouldn't necessarily have minded if Orion had [U]first[/U] reformed and grown up and [U]then[/U] Diana had entered a relationship with him --though a convincing "Orion grows up" narrative might have taken too long and/or taken up too much of the story space, which is why I say "in theory." On the whole, I'm glad that the relationship between Diana and Orion didn't happen. (See? I don't think all Azz's ideas were good--just the ones that made it to the page. :) )[/QUOTE]
It's often a chicken and egg scenario. Which comes first, the attraction or the renaissance?
Usually - as in the Han Solo/Princess Leia paradigm - the woman shows now interest in the brash and self centered male protagonist until he surprises her with some kind of grand gesture that suddenly has her seeing him in a whole new light. Usually with a look of complete bafflement after which she begins to suspect the way he has been treating her is not all there is to him.
Given Orion's actions later in the run where he not only saves Diana from various threats but also stands up to HighFather to see Zola and Zeke safely returned, I think its fair to say he qualifies in the "there's more to him than meets the eye" criteria.
[QUOTE=brettc1;1507969]Usually - as in the Han Solo/Princess Leia paradigm - the woman shows now interest in the brash and self centered male protagonist until he surprises her with some kind of grand gesture that suddenly has her seeing him in a whole new light. Usually with a look of complete bafflement after which she begins to suspect the way he has been treating her is not all there is to him.[/quote]
Sure--in fact, Diana sees another side to Orion as early as the end of 18, but again, she quickly shuts him down when switches back to his disrespectful self. And she sees another side to him in 22, but thisjust leads her to appeal to his better nature when it most counts; I don't remember any evidence that it leads her to accept his disrespect or bad behavior, which I don't think he really shows very much in that issue.
[quote]Given Orion's actions later in the run where he not only saves Diana from various threats but also stands up to HighFather to see Zola and Zeke safely returned, I think its fair to say he qualifies in the "there's more to him than meets the eye" criteria.[/QUOTE]
Absolutely And there's nothing wrong, in my view, with the idea there's more to him than meets the eye. There would only have been something wrong with Diana concluding that because there is more to him, she should overlook the bad behavior, find it charming, or jump into a relationship with him on blind faith that she can fix it [U]later[/U]. Fortuantely, whether we have Azz or his editors to thanks for it, this didn't happen.
(If she could have helped him mend his ways [U]first[/U], and then get in a relationship, then no problem--Diana has always been all about helping people reform, and I don't see why she'd need to stay out of relationship with someone who had already reformed.)
To be honest I have never liked Orion or the new Gods! One of things I didn't like was bringing a new God or the Gods into WW comic! I also don't like what it seems their trying do in the Justice League series, trying to tie the old Gods and New Gods together, don't like it. WW and Orion as a couple isn't something I'd like to see!! If WW not going to be SM, she should be with Steve, I'd rather see her with the BatGod then with Orion!! I'm not a fan of Batman!!