-
One possibility to consider is that the lasso may be... Well, not sentient, but capable of following directions and self propulsion. It does a lot to explain the physics not making sense, what with all the web swinging shenanigans, and why she could spin the lasso to deflect bullets when she was failing to do so with the bracers.
Kind of like how pre-Mother Storm Mjolnir functioned. The wielder has an almost telekinetic like control over it. In fact, the spinning lasso shield was pretty reminiscent of Thor's hammer spin as a shield move.
It also isn't much of a stretch given the level of absurd things the lasso does. Catching the jumbo jet and a lightning strike are easier to explain as the lasso being hella magic than physical movement on Diana's part.
-
I agree with all of that. The lasso is an incredible plot device / crutch. I'm sure in the next film it will have transmutation powers and can style Diana's hair when she's feeling a bit hungover in the morning while also cooking a delicious vegan breakfast for her and whatever avatar of Steve Trevor they've summoned back since Diana clearly isn't capable of dealing with a situation without a dude's help.
-
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5309031]You really seem to be intentionally misunderstanding my point.
Wonder Woman has never, in any context, including this film, been someone who is thousands of times faster than "bullet timer."[/QUOTE]
That point don't even makes any sense, because even a full lightning timer is not nearly thousands of times faster than a bullet timer, much less a high-end bullet timer like weakened Wonder Woman was.
Bullets from more modern weapons go up to multiple Mach speed, and lightning bolts stay typically below Mach 300, also have i mentioned already that it makes sense to interpret her as a not full lightning timer even at full power.
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5309031]
And...
You literally see clouds moving a lot during the lighting strike.[/QUOTE]
So your actual point is that a full power Wonder Woman has cloud speed, and is magnitudes slower than a weakened Wonder Woman, and what are that for crazy clouds anyway?
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5309031]
So...
It seems like we have a combination of things, but notably:
1. The lightning in the scene doesn't behave like lightning;[/QUOTE]
In what way?
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5309031]
2. It's a weird outlier anyway;[/QUOTE]
In comparison to what?
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5309031]
3. She's got reasons to explain why lightning wouldn't be like lightning for her, given that she's the freaking daughter of Zeus;[/QUOTE]
Are you trying to give Wonder Woman never shown or even mentioned abilities?
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5309031]
4. Again, the lightning doesn't act like lightning.[/QUOTE]
In what way?
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5309031]
5. Again, it's an insane crazy outlier that she doesn't live up to anywhere else, INCLUDING THIS FILM, given her fight shortly after with Cheetah and her situation with Max.[/QUOTE]
Was Superman's Justice League feat a crazy outlier too?
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5309031]
So, to sum up again, this "feat" just isn't one by the standards of the board we are sharing.[/QUOTE]
But we make up never shown or even mentioned abilities, and use wonky comparisons, like a Wonder Woman with a broader power-set and even weakened kind of better speed feats in Wonder Woman 1984 with an apparently downgraded Wonder Woman in Justice League?
-
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5328561]That point don't even makes any sense, because even a full lightning timer is not nearly thousands of times faster than a bullet timer, much less a high-end bullet timer like weakened Wonder Woman was.
Bullets from more modern weapons go up to multiple Mach speed, and lightning bolts stay typically below Mach 300, also have i mentioned already that it makes sense to interpret her as a not full lightning timer even at full power.[/QUOTE]
Oh the pain. Here goes: you seem to be intentionally mis-stating what I presented across multiple posts above, partially quoting and clearly either not reading or not understanding all of them. First, lighting doesn't not work the way you think it does. It doesn't move at mach 300 - it's a charge from source to ground that flashes visibly.
It doesn't necessarily go from point A to point B. The flash you see is a side efffect. Lassoing a lightning bolt (already - it's not really a thing you can lasso, but, magic money) from kilometers away if you don't know it's coming means picking it out and snagging it in the very brief moment it's there. So it's not just the speed of it forming, it's reacting to it, and hitting that target from a huge distance, all before the plasma fades away. It's not a hundred times faster than bullet timing, it's thousands of times faster.
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5328561]So your actual point is that a full power Wonder Woman has cloud speed, and is magnitudes slower than a weakened Wonder Woman, and what are that for crazy clouds anyway?[/QUOTE]
My actual point, repeated over and over and over and over and over and over is that a) this thing is a horrible outlier for her and b) the feat is rendered garbage by other many things visible in the same scene. Includding visibly moving clouds in the background, which would be impossible in the case of snagging a real world lightning bolt.
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5328561]In what way?[/QUOTE]
The same way I explained in multiple posts above.
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5328561]
In comparison to what?[/QUOTE]
In comparison to her entire catalog of things she's done over multiple movies. You know, the STANDARDS WE USE ON THIS BOARD.
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5328561]
Are you trying to give Wonder Woman never shown or even mentioned abilities?[/QUOTE]
I am most assuredly not doing that. I'm actually doing the very opposite.
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5328561]
In what way?[/QUOTE]
Second verse, same as the first. Please read what I've written already for explanations. Since you didn't read them the first time, I'm not really inspired to write them again.
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5328561]
Was Superman's Justice League feat a crazy outlier too?[/QUOTE]
Superman got a pretty ridiculously massive upgrade for Justice League, but he validates it with many, many feats in that very film at the same level. You know, something that Diana doesn't do at all in this one. It's also consistent-ish with his presentation.
[QUOTE=Rightoya;5328561]
But we make up never shown or even mentioned abilities, and use wonky comparisons, like a Wonder Woman with a broader power-set and even weakened kind of better speed feats in Wonder Woman 1984 with an apparently downgraded Wonder Woman in Justice League?[/QUOTE]
Yeah, nah.
-
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5328818]Oh the pain. Here goes: you seem to be intentionally mis-stating what I presented across multiple posts above, partially quoting and clearly either not reading or not understanding all of them. First, lighting doesn't not work the way you think it does. It doesn't move at mach 300 - it's a charge from source to ground that flashes visibly.
It doesn't necessarily go from point A to point B. The flash you see is a side efffect. Lassoing a lightning bolt (already - it's not really a thing you can lasso, but, magic money) from kilometers away if you don't know it's coming means picking it out and snagging it in the very brief moment it's there. So it's not just the speed of it forming, it's reacting to it, and hitting that target from a huge distance, all before the plasma fades away. It's not a hundred times faster than bullet timing, it's thousands of times faster.
My actual point, repeated over and over and over and over and over and over is that a) this thing is a horrible outlier for her and b) the feat is rendered garbage by other many things visible in the same scene. Includding visibly moving clouds in the background, which would be impossible in the case of snagging a real world lightning bolt.
The same way I explained in multiple posts above.
In comparison to her entire catalog of things she's done over multiple movies. You know, the STANDARDS WE USE ON THIS BOARD.
I am most assuredly not doing that. I'm actually doing the very opposite.
Second verse, same as the first. Please read what I've written already for explanations. Since you didn't read them the first time, I'm not really inspired to write them again.
Superman got a pretty ridiculously massive upgrade for Justice League, but he validates it with many, many feats in that very film at the same level. You know, something that Diana doesn't do at all in this one. It's also consistent-ish with his presentation.
Yeah, nah.[/QUOTE]
You truly love to lowball WW don't you?
Diana was seen to have reaction time fast enough to tag lightning. That is what she did in WW84. And it won't go away just because you don't like it. Her fight with Cheetah doesn't contradict anything because WW was holding back against her the whole time.
-
[QUOTE=Slade1;5308097]Agreed with this. The alternative is that she has lightening speed reflexes which we know isn't the case. The scene was just used for a cool visual; from a story point it makes no sense why she would do that as she could already fly. But then again, this movie wasn't anywhere close to being as good as the first one. It's not AS bad as some people have been saying but it's clearly worse than the first. I don't want to derail the thread so I'll stop there.[/QUOTE]
Yet that is WW did. She reacted to lightning. That is how she tagged lightning in the first place. Actual feats prsented in the film>>>>>>the opinion and theory of internet forum people.
-
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5320780]Yeah, the lasso is definitely the most powerful thing in the DCEU, outside of Clark. She also does the "swingy so fast in circles" thing that she makes a 3M diameter shield that stops bullets easily.
Of course, it also turns literally all of her fight scenes in WW84 into complete jokes of CW-level-awful PIS. If she can bullet-speed-plus with the rope and bullet-time her reflexes, she should just use the rope to KO all the enemies before they can react with their puny human reflexes, even if they are multiple km away from her (given the rope-a-jet and rope-a-cloud scenes, range is trivially that). Movie would have been better with fewer action set pieces, given how godawful the choreography and design were. Plus, they just went on forever. I feel that terrible road fight scene lasted like an hour and a half. Ugh.[/QUOTE]
Nice try. But even in comics. Characters like WW, Superman etc aren't allowed to use super speed in every battle because it would end the fights way too fast. So don't act like that is not a factor to consider. Unless of course you want to say that comic WW can't react to lightning speed either. Which i'm sure you will try to suggest based on the way i have seen you talk about this character.
-
[QUOTE=Captain Morgan;5322938]One possibility to consider is that the lasso may be... Well, not sentient, but capable of following directions and self propulsion. It does a lot to explain the physics not making sense, what with all the web swinging shenanigans, and why she could spin the lasso to deflect bullets when she was failing to do so with the bracers.
Kind of like how pre-Mother Storm Mjolnir functioned. The wielder has an almost telekinetic like control over it. In fact, the spinning lasso shield was pretty reminiscent of Thor's hammer spin as a shield move.
It also isn't much of a stretch given the level of absurd things the lasso does. Catching the jumbo jet and a lightning strike are easier to explain as the lasso being hella magic than physical movement on Diana's part.[/QUOTE]
Unless you have evidence that the lasso moves by its own and boost Diana's speed, then she tagged that lightning based on her own reaction time.
-
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5303598]It was all over the place, plus it was visibly faster moving than the convoy scene from WW84 is all I was saying. Cap has others from the Ultron fight as well. Plus of course there is the famous "on your left" scene, and BP and Cap accelerating away from the rest of the charging army as if they were standing still in Infinity War.
[B]Again, I'm not claiming that Cap is as fast as Diana, I'm not saying that this movie invalidates Diana's other feats, I'm not hinting that Diana isn't a badass.[/B] I'm just saying that the feats in WW84 aren't more impressive than feats she already had, with the exceptions of flying and turning shit invisible.[/QUOTE]
Yeah right. Keep telling yourself that. Reacting to lightening and tagging the bullet with her lasso(while severaly weakened). And running at 50mph while pushing a truck while also severaly weakened are all very good feats.
-
Whole lotta bias up in this piece.
-
[QUOTE=Captain Morgan;5320717]Setting aside whatever was going on with the lightning, one thing that doesn't seem to have gotten much attention is just how fast the lasso moves.
Consider the scene on the highway where she lassos the bullet.
1. Bullet is fired, she knows it won't hit her so she ignores it. She turns and watchs the bullet mid flight. Good, but pretty in line with first movie showings.
2. She realizes the bullet is going to hit her friend. Bullet is halfway to said friend now.
3. She grabs the lasso off her hip.
4 Diana flicks the lasso as the bullet.
5. The lasso OVERTAKES A BULLET IN FLIGHT.
6. Lasso doesn't merely hit flick bullet out of the way. It wraps around the bullet and plucks it out of the air.
Her reaction time alone there is maybe marginally better than most of her feats, but within sight of it. The key thing is that her lasso attacks travel faster than bullets. This basically circumvents the "how fast can Diana cross 100 feet" and opens some true speed blitz options. That bumps up her rumbles standing significantly.
She can also enemies that have gotten air born, given her grabbing a jumbo jet virtually from the ground.[/QUOTE]
WW while weakened was still seen reacting to bullets in that road scene. And she catched that bullet that was going to steve because she reacted and moved fast enough. The lasso doesn't move at super speed, unless you have proof. Otherwise it was Diana throwing the lasso fast enough to catch that bullet.
-
[QUOTE=big_adventure;5309060]That was the reason for the point, really: she doesn't just have one film or 3 total fights. She's in 3 and a half films and a couple of dozen battles now, plus non-fight scenes where that would ALSO be really useful to be a couple of thousands of times faster then normal. :D And when you combine that with all of the other points made over multiple posts now (lightning not behaving like lightning, gravity still having visible effects despite travel, speed of surrounding objects showing that she and the rope aren't moving at CLOSE to lightning speeds in nature, etc.) all combine to throw shade all over that feat.[/QUOTE]
The fact that you are trying to suggest she doesn't have super speed or that characters like cap america are just as fast as WW because she doesn't blitz every opponent in her path is just ridiculous. Superman doesn't go around speedblitzing 24/7 either. Yet i don't see you suggesting he is not super fast. DCU WW has proven time and time again that she can easily react faster than bullets speed. And she also just got a new feat reacting to lightning. JL or Bvs won't change that. Since WW84 ignores those movies by giving her powers that she didn't have in those movies.
-
[QUOTE=mystical41;5336919]Unless you have evidence that the lasso moves by its own and boost Diana's speed, then she tagged that lightning based on her own reaction time.[/QUOTE]
I specifically didn't address the lightning thing. I don't care enough to weigh into this shit show about the lightning thing. Not sure why you're quoting me. It is a weird feat and I don't feel especially strong about it.
The lasso moves on its own theory also has no real bearings on who she can beat in a fight, which is all I'm addressing. It is just me trying to reconcile the movie's poor simulation of physics. The lasso moves in truly bizarre ways on camera. It is immersion breaking in what might otherwise be pretty cool fight scenes. I'd rather excuse it with a plausible alternative rather than just say the digital choreography was bad.
Your second quote of me also seems to miss the point. Whether or not the lasso moves on its own or purely by the force of Diana throwing it doesn't really matter for who she can beat in a fight. What matters is that it can cross a distance much quicker than most opponents could react.
I've actually argued extensively against big_adventure that she could likely already do this based on the first movie. Now the point is moot because we have seen her explicitly do it.
I think you're overcompensating for the beef with big here, because you're going after people who aren't actually involved in your argument. For the record, I find big's criticism of the movie overblown and a bit distasteful, but largely for the same reasons I don't care to engage with it: it isn't actually relevant to who she can beat in a fight, which is what the thread and board as a whole is about.
For my part, while I truly loved the first movie, 1984 was pretty mediocre. That doesn't really have any bearing on the feats displayed beyond needing to make sense of some inexplicable ones.
-
[QUOTE=Captain Morgan;5337086]I specifically didn't address the lightning thing. I don't care enough to weigh into this shit show about the lightning thing. Not sure why you're quoting me. It is a weird feat and I don't feel especially strong about it.
The lasso moves on its own theory also has no real bearings on who she can beat in a fight, which is all I'm addressing. It is just me trying to reconcile the movie's poor simulation of physics. The lasso moves in truly bizarre ways on camera. It is immersion breaking in what might otherwise be pretty cool fight scenes. I'd rather excuse it with a plausible alternative rather than just say the digital choreography was bad.
Your second quote of me also seems to miss the point. Whether or not the lasso moves on its own or purely by the force of Diana throwing it doesn't really matter for who she can beat in a fight. What matters is that it can cross a distance much quicker than most opponents could react.
I've actually argued extensively against big_adventure that she could likely already do this based on the first movie. Now the point is moot because we have seen her explicitly do it.
I think you're overcompensating for the beef with big here, because you're going after people who aren't actually involved in your argument. For the record, I find big's criticism of the movie overblown and a bit distasteful, but largely for the same reasons I don't care to engage with it: it isn't actually relevant to who she can beat in a fight, which is what the thread and board as a whole is about.
For my part, while I truly loved the first movie, 1984 was pretty mediocre. That doesn't really have any bearing on the feats displayed beyond needing to make sense of some inexplicable ones.[/QUOTE]
E
Considering the fact that i'm seeing comment suggesting cap america or black panther are on par with DCEU WW. Yes i can't help but think lowballing is happening around here. DCEU WW reacting and tagging a speeding bullet while in a very weakened state already puts her speed well street levelers like the ones mentioned. That was my point. Plus reacting to lightning can't be ignore because that feat also happened.
-
[QUOTE=mystical41;5337184]E
Considering the fact that i'm seeing comment suggesting cap america or black panther are on par with DCEU WW. Yes i can't help but think lowballing is happening around here. DCEU WW reacting and tagging a speeding bullet while in a very weakened state already puts her speed well street levelers like the ones mentioned. That was my point. Plus reacting to lightning can't be ignore because that feat also happened.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, but I didn't say any of those things. So I dunno why you're trying to argue with me about it. All I've done in this thread is point out the best clean feat of the movie and offer a possible explanation for inconsistencies.
