Who’d win ?
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Who’d win ?
Thanos. Telepathy for a 10 count as DD gets stunned long enough for the win. Or Thanos teleport him into deep space. Or space toss. Any number of things really.
Thanos has way too many options.
If he fights like an idiot and doesn't use the many options he has, DD could feasibly adapt enough to kill him a la Drax but that'd take a while.
[QUOTE=The Arbiter;4438706]Thanos. Telepathy for a 10 count as DD gets stunned long enough for the win. Or Thanos teleport him into deep space. Or space toss. Any number of things really.[/QUOTE]
Haven't weaker versions of him trashed Martian manhunter? Also he’s survived the omega beams just fine, I don’t see Thanos getting any easy wins.
If we're talking about Death of Superman, where Doomsday beat up the Justice League (and punched Ice when she was unconscious, miraculously doing nothing serious to her given that she turned up again, ready to fight later on), and Manhunter was playing at being 'Bloodwynd' (oh, 90's, I'm not sorry to see you gone), then Manhunter's only attempt at using any telepathic power during that entire situation was trying to locate Doomsday using telepathy.
Everything else was him punching Doomsday and using Zap-Beams (rather stupidly, given the entire team had hit Doomsday with whatever energy generation powers they had and accomplished something between squat and zip).
So it's not really an indication of anything, except for PIS that J'onn didn't try to use his telepathy to shut Doomsday down. But the PIS was very, very strong in that entire storyline.
Maybe there's another time where he fights Doomsday, I don't know.
[QUOTE=Sharpandpointies;4439023]If we're talking about Death of Superman, where Doomsday beat up the Justice League (and punched Ice when she was unconscious, miraculously doing nothing serious to her given that she turned up again, ready to fight later on), and Manhunter was playing at being 'Bloodwynd' (oh, 90's, I'm not sorry to see you gone), then Manhunter's only attempt at using any telepathic power during that entire situation was trying to locate Doomsday using telepathy.
Everything else was him punching Doomsday and using Zap-Beams (rather stupidly, given the entire team had hit Doomsday with whatever energy generation powers they had and accomplished something between squat and zip).
So it's not really an indication of anything, except for PIS that J'onn didn't try to use his telepathy to shut Doomsday down. But the PIS was very, very strong in that entire storyline.
Maybe there's another time where he fights Doomsday, I don't know.[/QUOTE]
He fought him in... I think it was OWAW... he tried to go into Doomsday's mind and he was such a "maelstrom of rage," that J'onn got taken out or at least stunned with the psychic feedback.
This was also the same fight where Doomsday apparently tore Plastic Man because he pulled him hard enough to overcome his stretching powers.
Which is completely ridiculous given other things Plastic Man has done, so I would advise a big grain of salt there.
This would be, presumably, be a different version of Doomsday than H/P, right? As I recall H/P ended up with Doomsday being time dumped into the all consuming void at the end of time. OWAW was a clone of him... I think? H/P never really had much TP tried on him.
[QUOTE=Nik Hasta;4439040]He fought him in... I think it was OWAW... he tried to go into Doomsday's mind and he was such a "maelstrom of rage," that J'onn got taken out or at least stunned with the psychic feedback.
This was also the same fight where Doomsday apparently tore Plastic Man because he pulled him hard enough to overcome his stretching powers.
Which is completely ridiculous given other things Plastic Man has done, so I would advise a big grain of salt there.
This would be, presumably, be a different version of Doomsday than H/P, right? As I recall H/P ended up with Doomsday being time dumped into the all consuming void at the end of time. OWAW was a clone of him... I think? H/P never really had much TP tried on him.[/QUOTE]
No. After H/P, DD was taken from the end of time by Braniac and had his body taken over and controlled by Braniac who used it to beat the JLA. This is where tearing of Plas occurred. Which is incidentally just fine considering that DD history, which was basically same as H/P, written by the same writer as a sequel
Later that DD died in OWAW and the explicitly weaker clone that Jonn fought beat him, as well as beating back his TP assault
[QUOTE=The Arbiter;4438706]Thanos. Telepathy for a 10 count as DD gets stunned long enough for the win. Or Thanos teleport him into deep space. Or space toss. Any number of things really.[/QUOTE]
I don't think TP would work. Braniac was shown to be a stronger Telepath than Jonn in DD Wars and even he barely kept control through some device. Manchester Black was also shown to be a stronger telepath than Jonn
Thanos is arguably not, so telepathy is unlikely to work as anything other than maybe slowing him down, but then again Jonns experience against the weaker clone indicates otherwise
[QUOTE=The Dork Knight;4439065]I don't think TP would work. Braniac was shown to be a stronger Telepath than Jonn in DD Wars and even he barely kept control through some device. Manchester Black was also shown to be a stronger telepath than Jonn
Thanos is arguably not, so telepathy is unlikely to work as anything other than maybe slowing him down, but then again Jonns experience against the weaker clone indicates otherwise[/QUOTE]
Thanos is generally portrayed as more defensively potent with his TP then offensively, so I suppose that tracks.
Also, J'onn fought H/P Doomsday outside of the Watch Tower on the moon (alongside Orion) and barely lasted 1 minute. No obvious attempt at telepathy though.
[QUOTE=The Dork Knight;4439065]I don't think TP would work. Braniac was shown to be a stronger Telepath than Jonn in DD Wars and even he barely kept control through some device. Manchester Black was also shown to be a stronger telepath than Jonn
Thanos is arguably not, so telepathy is unlikely to work as anything other than maybe slowing him down, but then again Jonns experience against the weaker clone indicates otherwise[/QUOTE]
Does Doomsday have any feats for resisting telepathy?
Edit...you might be right inasmuch as only top level telepaths have controlled DD. I think Dr Psycho did it as well, who in turn traded blows with Saturn Girl, another high end telepath. But I'm hard pressed to say DD can only be controlled by high end telepaths if there are no TP resistance feats to begin with.
Also...didnt Thanos defeat Moondragon rather quickly in Avengers vs Thanos?
[QUOTE=Cronus;4440592]Does Doomsday have any feats for resisting telepathy?
Edit...you might be right inasmuch as only top level telepaths have controlled DD. I think Dr Psycho did it as well, who in turn traded blows with Saturn Girl, another high end telepath. But I'm hard pressed to say DD can only be controlled by high end telepaths if there are no TP resistance feats to begin with.[/QUOTE]
A weaker clone kicked out Martian Manhunter from his head
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/BZDHQv8Z/RCO020.jpg[/url]
He was also kicking out Braniac who was using a device to control him, he broke free the minute the device was removed
[url]https://m.imgur.com/QpHKr3r[/url]
In this story Braniac was able to shield himself from Jonns TP scan of the threat (him possessing Doomsday) which seems to indicate him being a better telepath
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/tRtdNT9S/RCO050-w.jpg[/url]
[QUOTE]
Also...didnt Thanos defeat Moondragon rather quickly in Avengers vs Thanos?[/QUOTE]
Is that a new feat?
The only time I remember Thanos beating Moondragon was quite a while ago. They had a psychic duel of sorts that he eventually wore her down through. It was suggested that it took quite a bit of time. That's still a really good feat mind you, but I tend to view that as suggesting his defensive TP won the day. His offensive stuff is less common/good then his defensive and seems to be more individual then wide scale. Still, he controlled the Hulk to hit Thor iirc.
Thanos also took out Moondragon in short order during Annihilation. She mind blasted him, he mostly ignored it and then smacked her to knock her out.
[QUOTE=The Dork Knight;4441155]A weaker clone kicked out Martian Manhunter from his head
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/BZDHQv8Z/RCO020.jpg[/url]
He was also kicking out Braniac who was using a device to control him, he broke free the minute the device was removed
[url]https://m.imgur.com/QpHKr3r[/url]
In this story Braniac was able to shield himself from Jonns TP scan of the threat (him possessing Doomsday) which seems to indicate him being a better telepath
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/tRtdNT9S/RCO050-w.jpg[/url]
Is that a new feat?[/QUOTE]
The version of Doomsday you indicate in the first link is from Superman 175...written by Loeb. That whole interaction was strange. Jonn appears to hit him with some TP shenanigans...then physically engaged him. Doomsday speaks and Jonn, surprised, exclaims, "Sentient!"
So...Jonn didnt discern this right away? At any rate I took that to mean that Jonn's surprise caused him to stop with the TP, at which point...bye bye Jonn.
As far as the second link, that is from the issue mini...Brainiac maintained control of Doomsday for most of those books...a significant period of time...despite his indicating degree of difficulty....so, eh.
As to the third, wasn't the reason for Brainiacs superiority due to the same device that helped him maintain control of Doomsday throughout that arc?
[QUOTE=The Arbiter;4441218]The only time I remember Thanos beating Moondragon was quite a while ago. They had a psychic duel of sorts that he eventually wore her down through. It was suggested that it took quite a bit of time. That's still a really good feat mind you, but I tend to view that as suggesting his defensive TP won the day. His offensive stuff is less common/good then his defensive and seems to be more individual then wide scale. Still, he controlled the Hulk to hit Thor iirc.[/QUOTE]
Mmm. Not so sure myself. The narration presented Moondragon and Thanos as "two mental titans vying for control over the other". You're right inasmuch as Thanos is typically shown resisting high end telepaths...but this early feat from Captain Marvel 31 lays groundwork to the effect that Thanos offensive TP is also high end. And as you mention, he also controlled the Hulk with TP.
[QUOTE=Cronus;4441625]The version of Doomsday you indicate in the first link is from Superman 175...written by Loeb. That whole interaction was strange. Jonn appears to hit him with some TP shenanigans...then physically engaged him. Doomsday speaks and Jonn, surprised, exclaims, "Sentient!"[/QUOTE]
Yes but if we are considering what Jonn says we have to consider what DD says as well. And DD quite clearly tells him to get out of his head
So Jonn attempted to " Get in his head" and it didn't work [I]before[/I] there was any physical contact
[QUOTE]So...Jonn didnt discern this right away? At any rate I took that to mean that Jonn's surprise caused him to stop with the TP, at which point...bye bye Jonn. [/QUOTE]
It also means that Jonn's initial TP attack didn't work since DD gets the chance to speak out afterwards instead of instantly becoming his thrall
[QUOTE]As far as the second link, that is from the issue mini...Brainiac maintained control of Doomsday for most of those books...a significant period of time...despite his indicating degree of difficulty....so, eh.[/QUOTE]
Actually I rechecked. Braniac never got a chance to use the extra support. It was all him, but it was through a mind transfer
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/pLWcwpvF/RCO087.jpg[/url]
[QUOTE]As to the third, wasn't the reason for Brainiacs superiority due to the same device that helped him maintain control of Doomsday throughout that arc?[/QUOTE]
Crucially the mind transfer was [I]on Doomsday [/I] not J'onn such that a psi blocker immediately ended control over DD. Ergo it couldn't have been a factor on any mental interactions with J'onn
Besides he clearly was using TP in this story on his own
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/Yqwsxdy8/RCO078.jpg[/url]
So to recap- J'onn's mental attack didn't work on a weaker clone, and even a stronger telepath than J'onn was having trouble keeping control of the real deal, even after a literal mind transfer, a process that was supposed to "destroy" any trace of the creature's mind
DD also resisted commands from WW's lasso which J'onn couldn't.
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/kMSH80wB/RCO047.jpg[/url]
[url]https://m.imgur.com/94E2CDm[/url]
I suppose you could attribute that to Braniac instead but either way it shows Braniac was a stronger telepath than J'onn or DD has greater resistance than J'onn.
The lasso has also broken mental control on numerous occasions yet it didn't do so for DD
[QUOTE=The Dork Knight;4441949]Yes but if we are considering what Jonn says we have to consider what DD says as well. And DD quite clearly tells him to get out of his head
So Jonn attempted to " Get in his head" and it didn't work [I]before[/I] there was any physical contact [/quote]
I respectfully disagree. Jonn was already in Doomsday's head or else Doomsday wouldn't have told him to get out. But he was definitely inside Doomsday's head. Again, I read that whole exchange to mean this: J'onn got inside Doomsday's head, Doomsday speaks and J'onn realizes he's not dealing with the mindless, rampaging monster he has always dealt with in the past. This surprise allows newly evolved, sentient Doomsday to get his mits on J'onn and the rest is clearly indicated in your scan.
[quote]It also means that Jonn's initial TP attack didn't work since DD gets the chance to speak out afterwards instead of instantly becoming his thrall [/quote]
Disagree completely as I can think of examples with Superman, for example, who was being controlled telepathically, yet was able to speak and resist to some degree, even if little. Yet clearly, Clark was under mental domination (I'm thinking Despero in JLA). So, being able to speak is not conclusive evidence that one is not being mentally dominated.
[quote]Actually I rechecked. Braniac never got a chance to use the extra support. It was all him, but it was through a mind transfer
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/pLWcwpvF/RCO087.jpg[/url][/quote]
Very true. I re-read the issues myself. The intent was to use a techno-chemical assist so DD's mind wouldn't constantly be fighting Brainiac. It never happened because Doomsday reacted to quickly for the two Coluans to do what needed to be done.
[quote]Crucially the mind transfer was [I]on Doomsday [/I] not J'onn such that a psi blocker immediately ended control over DD. Ergo it couldn't have been a factor on any mental interactions with J'onn[/quote]
Yes, also true as the story unfolded. The same psi blocker Clark used at the beginning of the story to block Fine also worked later in the story to interrupt Brainiac's control of Doomsday.
[quote]Besides he clearly was using TP in this story on his own
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/Yqwsxdy8/RCO078.jpg[/url]
So to recap- J'onn's mental attack didn't work on a weaker clone,[/quote]
Agree to disagree for reasons I mention above.
[quote] and even a stronger telepath than J'onn was having trouble keeping control of the real deal,[/quote]
And here is the part where I'm having trouble with all this: the idea that Brainiac (Milton Fine Brainiac) is a more powerful telepath that J'onn. Maxima, was able dominate Fine with TP. In fact, IIRC, wasn't Maxima faking being controlled by the enhanced Brainiac and biding her time to strike later? I seem to remember something like that in that story.
[B]EDIT: just checked Action Comics 674 and 675. Maxima was already faking being controlled by Brainiac.[/B]
And I don't recall Maxima being a dominant telepath. In fact, she tried to exert influence of Clark once but failed because Eradiactor was already controlling him.
[quote]even after a literal mind transfer, a process that was supposed to "destroy" any trace of the creature's mind[/QUOTE]
It was the techno chemical assist that was supposed to do that, not the transferring of Brainiac's psi essence per se.
I suppose in all this I'm saying I'm having difficulty believing the version of Brainiac used to control Doomsday in SSDD Wars (Fine) is a powerful enough telepath to block Martian Manhunter as he did in that story line, and also be able to throw off the effects of WW's lasso. Just seems like a big stretch. The Martian, has you likely recall has some pretty impressive TP feats, one's I've never seen (Fine) Brainiac replicate.
But even if we say that version of Brainiac sits at the same table as what? Saturn Girl? Dr Psycho? Is he superior to Thanos as a telepath? That might be a stretch if we accept that Thanos indeed defeated Moondragon, a powerful telepath in her own right, who I surmise is on par with someone like MM or Xavier. Xavier was unable to control a very angry Hulk in WW Hulk, yet as mentioned earlier, Thanos controlled Hulk telepathically something Xavier was incapable of doing in WW Hulk story line. Also, it took Cable with Storm's assistance to muck about with an angry Hulk's mind way back in the Onslaught storyline. Also, maybe worth mentioning Dr Strange has been pushed out of Hulk's mind as well by Hulk. Honorable mentions: Thanos controls the Fallen One and mind whammy's the post retconned Beyonder. I might be forgetting one or two more, but I think Thanos is a more formidable offensive telepath than he is given credit for.
[QUOTE]But even if we say that version of Brainiac sits at the same table as what? Saturn Girl? Dr Psycho? Is he superior to Thanos as a telepath? That might be a stretch if we accept that Thanos indeed defeated Moondragon, a powerful telepath in her own right, who I surmise is on par with someone like MM or Xavier. Xavier was unable to control a very angry Hulk in WW Hulk, yet as mentioned earlier, Thanos controlled Hulk telepathically something Xavier was incapable of doing in WW Hulk story line. [/QUOTE]
That was a storyline where Emma Frost of all people could psi block Xavier and basically shut him down as an active factor despite his wishes. He was not exactly being portrayed at his best. Taking that storyline as some especially valid portrayal of Chaz doesn't track considering what he's done in other places.
[QUOTE]Also, it took Cable with Storm's assistance to muck about with an angry Hulk's mind way back in the Onslaught storyline.[/QUOTE]
It's not like that was Jesus Mode Cable, so that's not really a grand showing of requiring tons of oomph.
[QUOTE]Also, maybe worth mentioning Dr Strange has been pushed out of Hulk's mind as well by Hulk.[/QUOTE]
No, not really, considering Strange himself has managed to take Moondragon to a mutual KO in a mind duel.
[QUOTE] I might be forgetting one or two more, but I think Thanos is a more formidable offensive telepath than he is given credit for.[/QUOTE]
Eh. "He mind controlled the Hulk" is not the way to promote his offensive telepathy as being on some Xavier scale of things. He has it, it's decently potent, it's hard to weigh because almost his only showings ever of it are basically putting the whammy on someone. If he actually managed to take out Moondragon in a psi duel, that might be something.
[QUOTE] Thanos controls the Fallen One and mind whammy's the post retconned Beyonder.[/QUOTE]
The Maker, while powerful, was only /so/ powerful, which was kind of the specific point of them. Their oomph was limited by the form they occupied.
[QUOTE=Pendaran;4442175]That was a storyline where Emma Frost of all people could psi block Xavier and basically shut him down as an active factor despite his wishes. He was not exactly being portrayed at his best. Taking that storyline as some especially valid portrayal of Chaz doesn't track considering what he's done in other places.
It's not like that was Jesus Mode Cable, so that's not really a grand showing of requiring tons of oomph.
No, not really, considering Strange himself has managed to take Moondragon to a mutual KO in a mind duel.
Eh. "He mind controlled the Hulk" is not the way to promote his offensive telepathy as being on some Xavier scale of things. He has it, it's decently potent, it's hard to weigh because almost his only showings ever of it are basically putting the whammy on someone. If he actually managed to take out Moondragon in a psi duel, that might be something.
The Maker, while powerful, was only /so/ powerful, which was kind of the specific point of them. Their oomph was limited by the form they occupied.[/QUOTE]
As usual, good points all :p
But, the duel with Moondragon in Captain Marvel 31...wasn't that a telepathic duel that Thanos won?
[QUOTE=Cronus;4442162]I respectfully disagree. Jonn was already in Doomsday's head or else Doomsday wouldn't have told him to get out. [/QUOTE]
He was already in DD's head and threw a punch yet DD stopped him. At the very least DD's resistance to J'onn's punch was unaffected by J'onn getting in his head. Or in other words, "getting in his head" helped him not at all in the physical fight
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/BZDHQv8Z/RCO020.jpg[/url]
[QUOTE]So, being able to speak is not conclusive evidence that one is not being mentally dominated. [/QUOTE]
But being able to resist the physical attack accompanying the mental attack is evidence
[QUOTE]Agree to disagree for reasons I mention above.[/QUOTE]
But what exactly do you disagree with? Clearly DD used telepathy on Superman in the scan there
Besides that, DD continuing to resist while J'onn is "in his head" shows DD's resistance to TP
[QUOTE]And here is the part where I'm having trouble with all this: the idea that Brainiac (Milton Fine Brainiac) is a more powerful telepath that J'onn. [/QUOTE]
Yeah ok. Firstly that's not Milton Fine Braniac, that's Braniac after he got a new body. Secondly the whole shtick with Braniac and Milton Fine was that his TP was limited by the body, which was improved upon in every version, DD representing the latest upgrade
[url]https://m.imgur.com/a/j44w7[/url]
[QUOTE]The Martian, has you likely recall has some pretty impressive TP feats, one's I've never seen (Fine) Brainiac replicate.
[/QUOTE]
I think it's interesting to talk about a dude who has so few appearances and in them constantly switches bodies, having no non fight TP feats of note when your entire argument for Thanos seems to rest on "he did well against X telepath". When did Thanos control millions on a planet to justify the stuff against Moondragon?
Also the Moondragon mind war thing followed from after he had the cosmic cube in his hand though it's unclear if he actually used it
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/FHkynXpZ/image.jpg[/url]
Since we are comparing performances, it's worth noting in Annihilation itself Moondragon read his mind even in a weakened state
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/YCyp0JBJ/image.jpg[/url]
Thanos has also (briefly) invaded Galactus' mind. Yes, he was forcibly cast out in short order, but he at least got a rise out of the guy.
Edit: Actually, upon reflection, Moondragon set up that particular mental Skype call between them, didn't she?
[QUOTE=The Arbiter;4442633]Thanos has also (briefly) invaded Galactus' mind. Yes, he was forcibly cast out in short order, but he at least got a rise out of the guy.
Edit: Actually, upon reflection, Moondragon set up that particular mental Skype call between them, didn't she?[/QUOTE]
Yea the "Let's become one, Thanos" was different.
[QUOTE=The Dork Knight;4442407][B]He was already in DD's head [/B]and threw a punch yet DD stopped him. At the very least DD's resistance to J'onn's punch was unaffected by J'onn getting in his head. Or in other words, "getting in his head" helped him not at all in the physical fight
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/BZDHQv8Z/RCO020.jpg[/url][/quote]
Previously, you said this:
[QUOTE=The Dork Knight;4442407]Yes but if we are considering what Jonn says we have to consider what DD says as well. And DD quite clearly tells him to get out of his head
So [B]Jonn attempted to " Get in his head" and it didn't work[/B] before there was any physical contact [/quote]
Not sure which one to go with here, but here is what I said and still stick by:
[quote]I respectfully disagree. Jonn was already in Doomsday's head or else Doomsday wouldn't have told him to get out. But he was definitely inside Doomsday's head. Again, I read that whole exchange to mean this: J'onn got inside Doomsday's head, Doomsday speaks and J'onn realizes he's not dealing with the mindless, rampaging monster he has always dealt with in the past. This surprise allows newly evolved, sentient Doomsday to get his mits on J'onn and the rest is clearly indicated in your scan.[/quote]
Later in the same story (Superman 175), we see Clark's conversation with the Martian:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]84204[/ATTACH]
So clearly, Jonn was inside sentient Doomsday's head. Once he was inside and ascertained Doomsday was sentient, it gave Doomsday the pause he needed to bring down the Martian.
[quote]But being able to resist the physical attack accompanying the mental attack is evidence[/quote]
As I mentioned, I don't see that specifically as proof of much given the context of Superman 175. As the scan above clearly indicates, Jonn appeared more interested in discovering what was motivating Doomsday to attack and "SURPRISE!", that he was sentient. He even tells Clark, "he's learning". As far as PIS moments go, and given it was Jeph Loeb, not a bad cover over for J'onn not explicitly trying to control Doomsday from the get go. But that wouldn't work on Rumbles since there is no PIS.
[quote]But what exactly do you disagree with? Clearly DD used telepathy on Superman in the scan there
Besides that, DD continuing to resist while J'onn is "in his head" shows DD's resistance to TP [/quote]
Again, the evidence indicates that J'onn wasn't trying to control him but was more interested in what was going on inside his mind.
[quote]Yeah ok. Firstly that's not Milton Fine Braniac, that's Braniac after he got a new body.[/quote]
Sure, details, details and what not.
[quote]Secondly the whole shtick with Braniac and Milton Fine was that his TP was limited by the body, which was improved upon in every version, DD representing the latest upgrade
[url]https://m.imgur.com/a/j44w7[/url][/quote]
So the link you provide from Action 649, Fine's body was indeed improved upon to moderate Fine's resisting of Brainiac taking him over and the new body. But Fine also had latent psionic abilities. So how was Doomsday's body an upgrade from the one shown in Action 649, Doomsday's original body [I]or[/I] the one Brainiac planned on growing? What indication is there that either of these was a [I]psionic[/I] uprgrade over Fine's?
[quote]I think it's interesting to talk about a dude who has so few appearances and in them constantly switches bodies, having no non fight TP feats of note when your entire argument for Thanos seems to rest on "he did well against X telepath". When did Thanos control millions on a planet to justify the stuff against Moondragon?[/QUOTE]
I don't have a problem with scaling if that's what you're driving at....although, I'm still interested in Pendaran's evaluation of the fight in Captain Marvel 31 between Moondragon and Thanos. And I'm cool with it if the board is saying the feat in CM 31 isn't legit.
My problem is the evidence being used to indicate Brainiac is a more powerful telepath than Martian Manhunter. You use a scan from Superman 175, a [I]sentient[/I] Doomsday who according to you, can just flat out resist one of the most powerful telepaths in the DC universe. As well, that was not the mindless, raging Doomsday that the (edit: not Clark) JLA was used to.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]84205[/ATTACH]
[ATTACH=CONFIG]84206[/ATTACH]
So, J'onn, overconfident according to Brainiac, failed to notice the different psyche: he didn't get the raging monster he was searching for. As well, the Doomsday from Superman 175 was not the raging creature J'onn or anyone was used to, but a thinking, reasoning being.
Additionally, the clone you pointed out in OWAW was the raging creature J'onn [I]was[/I] used to. As an aside, I seem to remember some discussion on these very forums some time ago as to whether Black Adam in WWIII legitimately pushed J'onn out of his enraged mind. Maybe I'm mis-remembering, but I thought we decided that was a bit of PIS for J'onn as well.
I just don't feel comfortable saying Brainiac is a more powerful telepath the Martian Manhunter.
[QUOTE=The Dork Knight;4442615]Also the Moondragon mind war thing followed from after he had the cosmic cube in his hand though it's unclear if he actually used it
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/FHkynXpZ/image.jpg[/url][/quote]
Yeah, there is no indication that he did.
[quote]Since we are comparing performances, it's worth noting in Annihilation itself Moondragon read his mind even in a weakened state
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/YCyp0JBJ/image.jpg[/url][/QUOTE]
So, Thanos allowed Moondragon to connect to his mind.
[QUOTE]I don't have a problem with scaling if that's what you're driving at....although, I'm still interested in Pendaran's evaluation of the fight in Captain Marvel 31 between Moondragon and Thanos. And I'm cool with it if the board is saying the feat in CM 31 isn't legit.[/QUOTE]
He's holding the cosmic cube in that instance, that's a giant asterisk. I thought you might have been referring to something else instead.
[QUOTE]Since we are comparing performances, it's worth noting in Annihilation itself Moondragon read his mind even in a weakened state [/QUOTE]
That doesn't really mean much considering that when she tries stuff like full out mindblast, the result is straight up nothing. I mean let's not go wacky, dude's resistances are high up there just fine.
[QUOTE=Pendaran;4443156]He's holding the cosmic cube in that instance, that's a giant asterisk. I thought you might have been referring to something else instead. [/quote]
Fair enough. I could see that too.
[QUOTE=Pendaran;4443156]That doesn't really mean much considering that when she tries stuff like full out mindblast, the result is straight up nothing. I mean let's not go wacky, dude's resistances are high up there just fine.[/QUOTE]
Yup. The stuff from GoTG, Moondragon, Mantis and Cosmo were unable to breach a decidedly weakened Thanos just back from the dead and they did all of doodly and squat pretty much.
[QUOTE=Cronus;4443135]Previously, you said this:
Not sure which one to go with here, but here is what I said and still stick by:[/QUOTE]
If semantics over what "getting in his head" is all you've got, that's not much of an argument really.
J'onn punches DD, DD catches the punch. J'onn being inside DD's head doesn't stop him from catching the punch. Ergo "getting in his mind" didn't work
[QUOTE]
So clearly, Jonn was inside sentient Doomsday's head. Once he was inside and ascertained Doomsday was sentient,[B] it gave Doomsday the pause he needed to bring down the Martian.[/B][/QUOTE]
Except there is no "pause" in the actual comic. DD is literally catching J'onn's punch [I]before [/I] J'onn ascertained he was sentient. That's just.... the comic
[QUOTE]I mentioned, I don't see that specifically as proof of much given the context of Superman 175. As the scan above clearly indicates, [B]Jonn appeared more interested in discovering what was motivating Doomsday to attack [/B] and "SURPRISE!", that he was sentient. [/QUOTE]
Except again you're simply ignoring the comic where J'onn specifically says " you'll harm no one else" before clearly launching a TP attack on him
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/B6yCRMrW/RCO019.jpg[/url]
Did he forget the bit you think, or was he simply beaten? Was the telepath trying to find DD's "motivation" through the good ol fashioned Batman school of "punch him till he confesses"?
[QUOTE]
Again, the evidence indicates that J'onn wasn't trying to control him but was more interested in what was going on inside his mind.[/QUOTE]
Yes, clearly the punching, " You'll harm no one else" and quite explicit TP waves coming from his head were him trying to find out about DD's thoughts and feelings
[QUOTE]
Sure, details, details and what not. [/QUOTE]
It's strange to see how uninterested you are in details when you can otherwise base whole arguments off single panels it seems
[QUOTE]
So the link you provide from Action 649, Fine's body was indeed improved upon to moderate Fine's resisting of Brainiac taking him over and the new body. But Fine also had latent psionic abilities. So how was Doomsday's body an upgrade from the one shown in Action 649, Doomsday's original body [I]or[/I] the one Brainiac planned on growing? What indication is there that either of these was a [I]psionic[/I] uprgrade over Fine's?[/QUOTE]
It wasn't just Fine's resistance. His body was literally falling apart under Braniac's power and was unable to house him
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/pdCGcQVx/image.jpg[/url]
Even limited as he was by the body, it's worth noting Milton Fine's very contact with Braniac was through an interstellar psionic search, albeit at the cost of his mind breaking down
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/NMWzRsfr/IMG-20190706-070204.jpg[/url]
So it's not like he was as lacking in power as he turned out to be on earth in Fine's body because of the limitations.
In that sense, DD's body represents an upgrade plain and simple, simply by virtue of it being even more durable than his last one
[QUOTE]So, J'onn, overconfident according to Brainiac, failed to notice the different psyche: he didn't get the raging monster he was searching for. [/QUOTE]
Except J'onn (or the JLA) were not looking for DD... they just found him. They didn't know the nature of the threat [I]because [/I] Braniac hid it from them. There's a pretty big lead up to "hmm what could be causing this destruction? " before they finally get to DD. J'onn even went ahead
[QUOTE]
I just don't feel comfortable saying Brainiac is a more powerful telepath the Martian Manhunter.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't matter if Braniac's latest upgrade was more powerful than J'onn, what matters is [I]in the context of the story [/I] it required someone more adept than J'onn to control DD.
Which, taken with J'onn's failure to stop the clone from "harming no one else" despite starting with a TP attack proves it takes more than regular MMH to stop DD. I don't think the same can be equated with Black Adam, since the HP DD appeared in all of 2 minis and maybe an issue in OWAW, with his whole shtick being "the same thing doesn't work twice".... TP in this case
I'm not really.. much invested in anything else going on here, but just on this:
[QUOTE]
It doesn't matter if Braniac's latest upgrade was more powerful than J'onn, what matters is in the context of the story it required someone more adept than J'onn to control DD. [/QUOTE]
The thing here would be that if indeed in general Braniac is a less powerful telepath than J'onn, a showing where he's a comparatively more powerful one has a bit of an off quality.
[QUOTE=Cronus;4443144]
So, Thanos allowed Moondragon to connect to his mind.[/QUOTE]
That's literally not what's happening in the comic, even going by the scan never mind the 4 issues that preceded this. I have no idea how you arrived at the conclusion you did from that
[QUOTE=Pendaran;4443156]
That doesn't really mean much considering that when she tries stuff like full out mindblast, the result is straight up nothing. I mean let's not go wacky, dude's resistances are high up there just fine.[/QUOTE]
Yeah sure Thanos has good TP defence, good enough to stop outright control, which need not be the same thing as "good enough to have his intentions being read"
[QUOTE=The Dork Knight;4443423]If semantics over what "getting in his head" is all you've got, that's not much of an argument really.
J'onn punches DD, DD catches the punch. J'onn being inside DD's head doesn't stop him from catching the punch. Ergo "getting in his mind" didn't work[/quote]
As you noted, J'onn uses telepathy, in what form we don't know immediately, then he throws two unanswered punches, a right cross, then a left cross. His assault was a physical one.
[quote]Except there is no "pause" in the actual comic. DD is literally catching J'onn's punch [I]before [/I] J'onn ascertained he was sentient. That's just.... the comic [/quote]
I'm saying J'onn's realization that Doomsday was sentient and his surprise is what allowed Doomsday to press his physical assault and defeat J'onn, hence the "pause" I was referring to.
[quote]Except again you're simply ignoring the comic where J'onn specifically says " you'll harm no one else" before clearly launching a TP attack on him
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/B6yCRMrW/RCO019.jpg[/url]
Did he forget the bit you think, or was he simply beaten? Was the telepath trying to find DD's "motivation" through the good ol fashioned Batman school of "punch him till he confesses"? [/quote]
So, if we say your argument is valid, that J'onn's assault was a telepathic one, then we would also assume it [I]worked[/I] as J'onn threw two punches while Doomsday just stood there. Following the panels, it could be argued that Doomsday managed enough mental resistance to raise a hand, catch J'onn's punch and say,"Get out of my head Martian."
We are still left with J'onn's obvious surprise at a talking, sentient Doomsday now applying physical pressure, and fire, to a guy with a psychosomatic weakness to the same. In essence, we'd have to argue that Doomsday's "resistance" was as much the combination of J'onn's surprise and Doomsday's physical assault as much as any mental "resistance" Doomsday was able to manifest. Had J'onn kept his distance and used TP, would there have been the same result? Doubtful.
But again, you're using this ambiguous feat from a sentient Doomsday....we're talking [I]H/P Doomsday[/I] in this thread. As noted above, we see J'onn was able to ascertain Doomsday's motivation for attacking as my previous scan clearly indicates.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]84228[/ATTACH]
If it's worth noting that Moondragon was able to ascertain information from Thanos' mind, wouldn't it also be noteworthy here? The difference is Thanos willingly connected to Moondragon's mind:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]84229[/ATTACH]
[quote]Yes, clearly the punching, " You'll harm no one else" and quite explicit TP waves coming from his head were him trying to find out about DD's thoughts and feelings
It's strange to see how uninterested you are in details when you can otherwise base whole arguments off single panels it seems [/quote]
If it was actual TP assault, as I mention above, the idea that sentient Doomsday resisted Martian Manhunter should include the context I note above.
[quote]It wasn't just Fine's resistance. His body was literally falling apart under Braniac's power and was unable to house him
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/pdCGcQVx/image.jpg[/url]
Even limited as he was by the body, it's worth noting Milton Fine's very contact with Braniac was through an interstellar psionic search, albeit at the cost of his mind breaking down
[url]https://i.postimg.cc/NMWzRsfr/IMG-20190706-070204.jpg[/url]
So it's not like he was as lacking in power as he turned out to be on earth in Fine's body because of the limitations.
In that sense, DD's body represents an upgrade plain and simple, simply by virtue of it being even more durable than his last one [/quote]
Both hosts had limitations, and therefore inherent resistance to Brainiac's psi essence inhabiting them.
But Fine had latent psionic ability. H/P Doomsday does not.
My point is that Doomsday's body would not convey Brainiac's telepathic power as well as Fine's.
[quote]Except J'onn (or the JLA) were not looking for DD... they just found him. They didn't know the nature of the threat [I]because [/I] Braniac hid it from them.[/quote]
I didn't mean a [I]physical[/I] search. I'm saying a combination of J'onn's "arrogance" (J'onn isn't arrogant, he likely was looking for the wrong thing) and Brainiac's TP defense prevented J'onn from "seeing the truth", that H/P Doomsday was no longer a mindless monster but was in fact being controlled by a very sentient Brainiac.
[quote]There's a pretty big lead up to "hmm what could be causing this destruction? " before they finally get to DD. J'onn even went ahead
It doesn't matter if Braniac's latest upgrade was more powerful than J'onn, what matters is [I]in the context of the story [/I] it required someone more adept than J'onn to control DD. [/quote]
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you indicating H/P Doomsday's body was an upgrade...an improvement...for Brainiac to be able to operate telepathically isn't accurate. As mentioned, both Fine and Doomsday resisted Brainiac's psi essence. But Fine at least had some psionic ability. Doomsday inherently does not.
[quote]Which, taken with J'onn's failure to stop the clone from "harming no one else" despite starting with a TP attack proves it takes more than regular MMH to stop DD. I don't think the same can be equated with Black Adam, since the HP DD appeared in all of 2 minis and maybe an issue in OWAW, with his whole shtick being "the same thing doesn't work twice".... TP in this case[/QUOTE]
I'll review the OWAW stuff later.
[QUOTE=Cronus;4444049]
I'm saying J'onn's realization that Doomsday was sentient and his surprise is what allowed Doomsday to press his physical assault and defeat J'onn, hence the "pause" I was referring to.[/QUOTE]
And I'm saying DD's resistance allowed to him to stop being dropped by punches + TP in the first place, to give him that pause.
[QUOTE]Doomsday managed enough mental resistance to raise a hand, catch J'onn's punch and say,"Get out of my head Martian."[/QUOTE]
So cool, we're agreed on the basics just not on the details. And it's pretty clear what happened - DD MUST have resisted to some extent to stop being punched- ergo mental resistance to the MMH, in a fight situation no less
[QUOTE]In essence, we'd have to argue that Doomsday's "resistance" was as much the combination of J'onn's surprise and Doomsday's physical assault as much as any mental "resistance" Doomsday was able to manifest.[/QUOTE]
Not initially. He had to catch the punch in the first place.before he himself attacked Jonn.Hence J'onn's surprise. Because he caught the punch. While J'onn was trying to get "in his head"
[QUOTE]Had J'onn kept his distance and used TP, would there have been the same result? Doubtful.[/QUOTE]
No it's not doubtful since resistance from DD came BEFORE J'onn's surprise, after waves of TP coming from J'onn's head and hitting DD's body. You can argue the extent of the resistance, not the resistance itself
[QUOTE]But again, you're using this ambiguous feat from a sentient Doomsday....we're talking [I]H/P Doomsday[/I] in this thread. [/QUOTE]
I mean J'onn lost both to a DD with a mind and without in Doomsday wars but more to the point HP DD in the original story itself was sentient enough to identify Superman and Metropolis so... an explicitly weaker clone developing resistance seems proof enough of the original "adapt to everything" version doing the same especially as it was already doing so to Braniac, just more slowly
[QUOTE]If it's worth noting that Moondragon was able to ascertain information from Thanos' mind, wouldn't it also be noteworthy here? The difference is Thanos willingly connected to Moondragon's mind:[/QUOTE]
Again you're otherwise arguing in the same thread that Moondragon along with others can barely control an unconscious weakened Thanos in the GOTG in this very thread. And here you're arguing just "connecting to his mind" for a different purpose, while she is weakened would allow her to read it? Seems like a contradiction
[QUOTE]Both hosts had limitations, and therefore inherent resistance to Brainiac's psi essence inhabiting them. [/QUOTE]
Limitations enough to have the body literally start crumbling under Braniac's power.
[QUOTE]My point is that Doomsday's body would not convey Brainiac's telepathic power as well as Fine's.[/QUOTE]
But just from not falling apart, DD's body can convey said power better
[QUOTE]
That's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that you indicating H/P Doomsday's body was an upgrade...an improvement...for Brainiac to be able to operate telepathically isn't accurate. As mentioned, both Fine and Doomsday resisted Brainiac's psi essence. But Fine at least had some psionic ability. Doomsday inherently doesnt [/QUOTE]
Cropping some of that but basically that's a whole lot of speculation
For me it's as simple as character with psionic abilities (Braniac) who's proven to have different powers in different bodies, specifically gets a different body for more power, does better. Or at least, Braniac's powers in each body should be judged on their own merit rather than previous standards for instance later Braniac's become universal level beings if we are going by "feats for all Braniacs through the era". If he did better in one body than the other in the story, for me that's just it, there's no need to over analyze by comparison with earlier bodies
As for DD, he was already clearly resisting on telepath, and his whole shtick being " Adapt to stuff ", regardless of whether you believe Braniac is a better telepath, his weaker clone resisting the MMH shows that he must have "adapted" to such threats even more efficiently, since he had already adapted somewhat
[QUOTE]
As for DD, he was already clearly resisting on telepath, and his whole shtick being " Adapt to stuff ", regardless of whether you believe Braniac is a better telepath, his weaker clone resisting the MMH shows that he must have "adapted" to such threats even more efficiently, since he had already adapted somewhat [/QUOTE]
This again ties back into something. So who overall is generally the better telepath? Braniac or J'onn? If the answer is J'onn, then a comparative showing like this where Braniac considerably outperforms him feels problematic.
[QUOTE=Pendaran;4444407]This again ties back into something. So who overall is generally the better telepath? Braniac or J'onn? If the answer is J'onn, then a comparative showing like this where Braniac considerably outperforms him feels problematic.[/QUOTE]
The thing with Braniac is that his powers change with every body. So the Braniac in DD's body was more powerful than J'onn and actually come to think of it even the earlier Braniac was probably more powerful than the J'onn of that era, but not later day J'onn.
Given that was pretty much Braniac's only appearance in DD's body, there is no comparative showing
[QUOTE=The Dork Knight;4444395]And I'm saying DD's resistance allowed to him to stop being dropped by punches + TP in the first place, to give him that pause.
So cool, we're agreed on the basics just not on the details. And it's pretty clear what happened - DD MUST have resisted to some extent to stop being punched- ergo mental resistance to the MMH, in a fight situation no less
Not initially. He had to catch the punch in the first place.before he himself attacked Jonn.Hence J'onn's surprise. Because he caught the punch. While J'onn was trying to get "in his head"
No it's not doubtful since resistance from DD came BEFORE J'onn's surprise, after waves of TP coming from J'onn's head and hitting DD's body. You can argue the extent of the resistance, not the resistance itself
I mean J'onn lost both to a DD with a mind and without in Doomsday wars but more to the point HP DD in the original story itself was sentient enough to identify Superman and Metropolis so... an explicitly weaker clone developing resistance seems proof enough of the original "adapt to everything" version doing the same especially as it was already doing so to Braniac, just more slowly
Again you're otherwise arguing in the same thread that Moondragon along with others can barely control an unconscious weakened Thanos in the GOTG in this very thread. And here you're arguing just "connecting to his mind" for a different purpose, while she is weakened would allow her to read it? Seems like a contradiction
Limitations enough to have the body literally start crumbling under Braniac's power.
But just from not falling apart, DD's body can convey said power better
Cropping some of that but basically that's a whole lot of speculation
For me it's as simple as character with psionic abilities (Braniac) who's proven to have different powers in different bodies, specifically gets a different body for more power, does better. Or at least, Braniac's powers in each body should be judged on their own merit rather than previous standards for instance later Braniac's become universal level beings if we are going by "feats for all Braniacs through the era". If he did better in one body than the other in the story, for me that's just it, there's no need to over analyze by comparison with earlier bodies
As for DD, he was already clearly resisting on telepath, and his whole shtick being " Adapt to stuff ", regardless of whether you believe Braniac is a better telepath, his weaker clone resisting the MMH shows that he must have "adapted" to such threats even more efficiently, since he had already adapted somewhat[/QUOTE]
So I seem to be failing miserably in conveying accurately what I'm trying to get across. Of course, I'm American so speaking English has always been problematic for me:cool:
Here's what I'm saying bottom line: I'm not buying that Martian Manhunter cant put the TP whammy on Doomsday, particularly if Brainiac can. Across the board, J'onn performs with the best psi's in the DC universe, save Despero and Saturn Girl. Hell, J'onn has managed to outperform six white martians TP wise and outdo Bette Noir and Dr Psycho.
What about Clark? You're versed on Clark? How does J'onn TP'ing Clark stack up against Brainiac TP'ing Clark?
In fact, how does Brainiac stack up to J'onn in the TP department minus Doomsday?
Hands down, J'onn outperforms Brainiac.
I'm just not feeling Brainiac can TP Doomsday, but J'onn cant.
[QUOTE=Sharpandpointies;4439023]
Everything else was him punching Doomsday and using Zap-Beams (rather stupidly, given the entire team had hit Doomsday with whatever energy generation powers they had and accomplished something between squat and zip). [/QUOTE]
Respectfully disagree. Their "By Your Powers Combined" blast melted Doomsday's one last arm restraint, thereby freeing his other arm.
That's right. The Justice League made it [I]worse.[/I]
(and thus concludes my only contribution in this thread)
[QUOTE=Cyke;4445954]Respectfully disagree. Their "By Your Powers Combined" blast melted Doomsday's one last arm restraint, thereby freeing his other arm.
That's right. The Justice League made it [I]worse.[/I]
(and thus concludes my only contribution in this thread)[/QUOTE]
...very good point. I bow to you, sir.
[QUOTE=Cyke;4445954]Respectfully disagree. Their "By Your Powers Combined" blast melted Doomsday's one last arm restraint, thereby freeing his other arm.
That's right. The Justice League made it [I]worse.[/I]
(and thus concludes my only contribution in this thread)[/QUOTE]
Can we just talk about that feat for a second? I've got some stuff I want to get off my chest lol.
It sets a ridiculous precedent. It's 2 Class 100's (Clark and J'onn*) + a sinestro ring + Booster Gold + Fire. Not just a quick blast either, but a rather extended one. Long enough for multiple panels to go by with characters dropping from exhaustion as they dump ALL of their power into it.
It just feels weird that Doomsday fairly easily took that blast (as you say - it actually freed his arm while he was /smiling/ of all things) but then later starts to really feel blows from a more beat up Clark who just finally decided to "go all out".
*you can maybe argue J'onn was not Class 100 by his feats of the era - I dont know his early post crisis stuff very well.
[QUOTE=The Arbiter;4446082]Can we just talk about that feat for a second? I've got some stuff I want to get off my chest lol.
It sets a ridiculous precedent. It's 2 Class 100's (Clark and J'onn*) + a sinestro ring + Booster Gold + Fire. Not just a quick blast either, but a rather extended one. Long enough for multiple panels to go by with characters dropping from exhaustion as they dump ALL of their power into it.
It just feels weird that Doomsday fairly easily took that blast (as you say - it actually freed his arm while he was /smiling/ of all things) but then later starts to really feel blows from a more beat up Clark who just finally decided to "go all out".
*you can maybe argue J'onn was not Class 100 by his feats of the era - I dont know his early post crisis stuff very well.[/QUOTE]
It's almost as if you're implying they had someone job to Superman. Who would do such a thing ?!