Should The Outsiders Be Always Associated With The Batman Franchise?

Pros

1. There is historical precedent for this. Their first iteration was founded by Batman and their first title was "Batman and the Outsiders."

2. This would give The Outsiders brand an advantage in terms of sales.

3. The title could be reworked into a Batfamily book, which would, much like Tynion's Detective, become a fan favorite for shining a spotlight on neglected Batfamily members

Cons

1. The Bat brand is overexposed.

2. The Outsiders would be overshadowed by Batman or some other high profile Bat-Member on the team.

For what its worth if anything, I liked Nightwing and The Outsiders

[COLOR="#B22222"]The team doesn't really have a 'core identity' besides Batman's team. The outcast thing is done way better in Doom Patrol and there are multiple spy/special ops team already operating in the DCU. Unless someone comes up with something better, that's what the team is about.

They've tried giving the team to other characters though but with mixed results. With Nightwing, it just turns into another Titans Redux. With Green Arrow, it wasn't even the Outsiders, just an excuse to use the name plus include Katana and giving him the team only makes him Batman-lite when he could be so much more. With Tim Drake, well, he's too young and he's more closely associated with Young Justice and the 4th gen heroes, unless you drastically change the roster you would have full grown adults like Black Lightning and Katana taking orders from a kid. They gave the team to Alfred but thats not viable for long term.

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I always preferred the Outsiders being characters who operated on a more classified level and had a lower profile than the Justice League. Batman having a network of underground heroes is cool and I think you can really do anything with that concept without having to really involve Batman. However the idea that they have to be outcasts and actual "outsiders" as opposed to my definition, heroes working outside the Justice League parameters, gets worn out quickly.

I think the big problem is that the Outsiders simply lack the "star power" to sustain a book on their own.

Without a connection to Batman they probably need something else to generate interest and sales.

[QUOTE=John Venus;4304770][COLOR="#B22222"]The team doesn't really have a 'core identity' besides Batman's team. The outcast thing is done way better in Doom Patrol and there are multiple spy/special ops team already operating in the DCU. Unless someone comes up with something better, that's what the team is about. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]The thing is that at least in it's original incarnation the the team never really did much special ops and spy stuff, and the majority of the classic members is not even particularly skilled in stuff like that. And the Outcast thing does also not work that well, since apart from Metamorpho all of the member were relativity normal humans. One was even a Prince of a small european nation and another was a former olympic athlete and school teacher.

For me a general problem of that book is, that the iconic members are just a really poor fit for the their mission statement.

Rather than the anti-social jerk that is Batman (whom is incredibly spread out anyway), perhaps Nightwing would lead them?

[QUOTE=Jackalope89;4304955]Rather than the anti-social jerk that is Batman (whom is incredibly spread out anyway), perhaps Nightwing would lead them?[/QUOTE]

I think a Nightwing-led Outsiders would be a pretty perfect ticket. BUT it would have to be composed of characters who are not new creator-owned vehicles; otherwise, the "creator" concentrates solely on his new toys and ignores what's driving the sales. The Nightwing and Outsiders book was a good idea, but the writer would just stick Nightwing on the cover and he was hardly in the book at all. A Nightwing and the Outsiders book would have to be like Red Hood and the Outlaws--strictly a support system/surrogate family for Nightwing.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4304926]I think the big problem is that the Outsiders simply lack the "star power" to sustain a book on their own.

Without a connection to Batman they probably need something else to generate interest and sales.

The thing is that at least in it's original incarnation the the team never really did much special ops and spy stuff, and the majority of the classic members is not even particularly skilled in stuff like that. And the Outcast thing does also not work that well, since apart from Metamorpho all of the member were relativity normal humans. One was even a Prince of a small european nation and another was a former olympic athlete and school teacher.

For me a general problem of that book is, that the iconic members are just a really poor fit for the their mission statement.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="#B22222"]In Barr/Aparo run, yes they were more about being outcasts but the Dixon and Tomasi incarnations of the team were more about special ops/espionage angle.

I do support the idea of a more street level version of the team. I played around with the idea at some point. It looks like DC has decided to follow a similar route as well. I like the idea of making them essentially the Defenders equivalent of the DCU.

The problem with making it into Nightwing's team, at least in my pov, is that it ends up feeling like Titans 2.0. Dick should all about being his own man and not following in daddy's foot steps.
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[QUOTE=oasis1313;4305250]I think a Nightwing-led Outsiders would be a pretty perfect ticket. BUT it would have to be composed of characters who are not new creator-owned vehicles; otherwise, the "creator" concentrates solely on his new toys and ignores what's driving the sales. The Nightwing and Outsiders book was a good idea, but the writer would just stick Nightwing on the cover and he was hardly in the book at all. [B]A Nightwing and the Outsiders book would have to be like Red Hood and the Outlaws--strictly a support system/surrogate family for Nightwing.[/B][/QUOTE]

That won't happen.

Even in "Batman and the Outsiders", they will likely use Batman to get sales, but it will probably focus more on the other characters.

For the overall origin of the team...I would say that Batman is needed, but outside the first two or three adventures...no as Batman would trust them enough to back off and form on their own as team.

Always? No, DC doesn't need every property to orbit Batman or some other "bigger" character; some things need to able to stand on their own. Batman is part of their origin, sure, but the Outsiders should be allowed to exist as it's own entity within the DC lexicon.

Should or could.

I've always been into the idea of Batman asking Catwoman, and Black Lightning to run a special ops team in the shadows. We've seen Lightning take on a leadership role in the past, but I think this could be something new, and very interesting for Selena to lead a team. She definitely has the covert skills, and we'd get to see her utilize her underground connections.

[QUOTE=lemonpeace;4310141]Always? No, DC doesn't need every property to orbit Batman or some other "bigger" character; some things need to able to stand on their own. Batman is part of their origin, sure, but the Outsiders should be allowed to exist as it's own entity within the DC lexicon.[/QUOTE]

The thing is that Outsiders can have problems to survive without Batman, especially in the current market.

Good quality won't guarantee that the comic survive.

If The Outsiders doesn't have Batman for a lead, it should have Green Arrow.

[QUOTE=lemonpeace;4310141]Always? No, DC doesn't need every property to orbit Batman or some other "bigger" character; some things need to able to stand on their own. Batman is part of their origin, sure, but the Outsiders should be allowed to exist as it's own entity within the DC lexicon.[/QUOTE]But I kind of doubt that the Outsiders can exist on their own (unless DC really massively pushed the book). The franchise doesn't really have a big fan base.

The team was founded by Batman it wouldn't exist without his involvement. Trying to pawn the name off to other characters won't work

In fact DC has experimented with the idea trying to use other characters(green arrow,nightwing, alfred,etc) and mission statements for the group but the only thing that works is Batman's recruited group of heroes who operate outside the JL's purview of justice

Batman and the Outsiders is the selling point

Well that's not necessarily true. Not that I'm advocating for it but the Outsiders with Nightwing was the longest lasting run.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4313246]Well that's not necessarily true. Not that I'm advocating for it but the Outsiders with Nightwing was the longest lasting run.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't that the roster with a lot of Titans characters or am I confusing it with a different series?

[QUOTE=king81992;4313249]Wasn't that the roster with a lot of Titans characters or am I confusing it with a different series?[/QUOTE]

Not a lot, but there was Roy and eventually Starfire for bit.

But that book had also barely any members of the classic Outsiders on the team (you had this wired thing with Shift/Metamorpho and Katana joined at some point in the second half of the run), and it were mostly Dick and Roy, who where carrying the book.

And the Batman lead runs were usually cut short, because of other reasons than poor sales.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4312905]But I kind of doubt that the Outsiders can exist on their own (unless DC really massively pushed the book). The franchise doesn't really have a big fan base.[/QUOTE]

eh, no offense but I think that too often is used as an excuse with a lot of DC's properties. It's has enough brand power to function without Batman on YJ: Outsiders and they've been ramping up to Outsiders on Black Lightning for the last season, it has enough of a fanbase to show there is something there worth exploring as it's own thing. DC's constantly chaining the team to Batman is a crutch imo. For all of Marvel's faults, it does know how to take a hit (if necessary) to establish their properties without chaining it to another one; which DC's been too easily spooked to do. Batman should be a launchpad but that should be the extent of it.

[QUOTE=lemonpeace;4314641]eh, no offense but I think that too often is used as an excuse with a lot of DC's properties. It's has enough brand power to function without Batman on YJ: Outsiders and they've been ramping up to Outsiders on Black Lightning for the last season, it has enough of a fanbase to show there is something there worth exploring as it's own thing. DC's constantly chaining the team to Batman is a crutch imo. For all of Marvel's faults, it does know how to take a hit (if necessary) to establish their properties without chaining it to another one; which DC's been too easily spooked to do. Batman should be a launchpad but that should be the extent of it.[/QUOTE]

You would use a TV cartoon that still use Young Justice as first name and Nightwing as a leader to prove that the brand Outsiders is strong. I don't see that.

Not to mention that the success in other media doesn't seem to translate in comic sales.

Outsiders without Batman (or Nightwing) had been bad sales in the past. So, it will pretty difficult DC can trust the brand on its own.

They shouldn't but you would need a new hook to compensate for the lack of Batman's presence. Maybe the movies or the Black Lightning show could show us how and the comics could pick up if it works.

[QUOTE=lemonpeace;4314641]eh, no offense but I think that too often is used as an excuse with a lot of DC's properties. It's has enough brand power to function without Batman on YJ: Outsiders and they've been ramping up to Outsiders on Black Lightning for the last season, it has enough of a fanbase to show there is something there worth exploring as it's own thing.[/QUOTE]Success in other Media rarely translates into comics sales.
Just look the Marvel Netflix shows, were quite popular, but only Daredevil and Punisher sell enough books to keep their series going, and those two were already successfull before the show.

Or look at Black Panther, his movie had the biggest domestic Box Office of all the Marvel Movies, but his comic his hardly a top seller.

And an Outsiders series without a batman connection (or something that compensates for that), would probably end up with similar sales as Terrifics (which sold only 15,838 issues in February).

[QUOTE=Konja7;4314827]You would use a TV cartoon that still use Young Justice as first name and Nightwing as a leader to prove that the brand Outsiders is strong. I don't see that.

Not to mention that the success in other media doesn't seem to translate in comic sales.

Outsiders without Batman (or Nightwing) had been bad sales in the past. So, it will pretty difficult DC can trust the brand on its own.[/QUOTE]


We got to get to a point of comic book store don't MATTER. Everybody wants to us that excuse way too much.
Comic book stores are not the end all like some entitlement trolls on Twitter want to think it is.

Especially since some of those stores have agendas towards certain books even existing. Which is why many books are now going graphic novel route like Sex, Astro City, Goldie Vance & Motor Crush.
If you got stores who don't care for Cyborg-get ready to see low order numbers from the start.

Part of the reason success in other media does not work is because of WHO IS BEING USED.

Black Lightning has a show with his DAUGHTERS. Who have not been seen in DC for now 9 years.
Ms Martian was on Supergirl when she was MIA in comics for almost 8 years.
Most of the Young Justice kids were MIA in comics.

The BIGGEST complaint I have heard from folks is "I like so-so on so-so-where is there stuff with them in it?" Lead by folks who don't live near comic book stores or have comic book stores that are so RACIST, SEXIST, RUDE & LGBTQ unfriendly they won't go to them.


[QUOTE]For all of Marvel's faults, it does know how to take a hit (if necessary) to establish their properties without chaining it to another one; which DC's been too easily spooked to do. Batman should be a launchpad but that should be the extent of it.[/QUOTE]

Marvel does those books for a reason. It is to get material out there in trades. So IF someone is interested in Rocket Raccoon-there is something with him as a solo. I was at a book store and there was folks looking for that solo series.

Look at trade sales. Carol, Black Panther, Ms Marvel, GOTG, Jane Foster and others are up there with Batman.

And here is some food for thought

Batman and the The Outsiders Vol. 1 Paperback – December 17, 2019
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #126,598 in Books
#477 in DC Comics & Graphic Novels
#1691 in Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels
#29869 in Science Fiction & Fantasy (Books)
Book is not even out yet and somehow it's already being preordered as a trade.

Maybe the goal is get the book out there and stop worrying about numbers. Just get a book out there and see what happens. WHo knows maybe it might inspire the writer who CAN give you a long run in the future.

[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;4316361]And here is some food for thought

Batman and the The Outsiders Vol. 1 Paperback – December 17, 2019
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #126,598 in Books
#477 in DC Comics & Graphic Novels
#1691 in Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels
#29869 in Science Fiction & Fantasy (Books)
Book is not even out yet and somehow it's already being preordered as a trade.

Maybe the goal is get the book out there and stop worrying about numbers. Just get a book out there and see what happens. WHo knows maybe it might inspire the writer who CAN give you a long run in the future.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if I understand your point in this part.

I mean is a book called "Batman and the Outsiders", it isn't surprised it will have good sales.

The discussion is if Outsiders could sell without Batman.

[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;4316361]
And here is some food for thought

Batman and the The Outsiders Vol. 1 Paperback – December 17, 2019
Amazon Best Sellers Rank: #126,598 in Books
#477 in DC Comics & Graphic Novels
#1691 in Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels
#29869 in Science Fiction & Fantasy (Books)
Book is not even out yet and somehow it's already being preordered as a trade.[/QUOTE]The thing is that we have idea, to how many sales this equates in absolute numbers. This could really be just a hand full of issues.
That seems actually quite likely since that it has drop to currently:
#817 in DC Comics & Graphic Novels
#2981 in Superhero Comics & Graphic Novels
#41818 in Science Fiction & Fantasy (Books)
And with larger sales numbers behind these Rankings, the ranks would probably be more stable.

And this incarnation of the Outsiders is more Batfamily centric than any previous incarnation. 3 out of the 5 team members are Batfamily members (previous incarnations had usually only one Batfamily member and a larger team), and they even used TEC to do a back door pilot for the book.

[QUOTE=DevilBat66;4312732]If The Outsiders doesn't have Batman for a lead, it should have Green Arrow.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="#B22222"]Because there aren't enough jokes about him being Green Batman. ::eyeroll:: [/COLOR]

Isn't it true that every book, especially the less popular ones, from time to time has a big character guest-appearing, being highlighted on the cover and all? Not only to leverage sales, but also because it's a connected universe. Isn't that enough? To me it's weird that the Outsiders [I]must[/I] have Batman on the title and not only guest-appearing sometimes. In fact, to me it would seem to be more effective that way, so they can use many different characters and not just Batman to lure readers in. Besides, team books aren't easier to sell? I mean, an Outsiders book would attract fans of each of its members.

[QUOTE=paulojrmam;4318594]Isn't it true that every book, especially the less popular ones, from time to time has a big character guest-appearing, being highlighted on the cover and all? Not only to leverage sales, but also because it's a connected universe. Isn't that enough? To me it's weird that the Outsiders [I]must[/I] have Batman on the title and not only guest-appearing sometimes. In fact, to me it would seem to be more effective that way, so they can use many different characters and not just Batman to lure readers in. Besides, team books aren't easier to sell? I mean, an Outsiders book would attract fans of each of its members.[/QUOTE]

It's true that the sales increases when a big character guess appear, but these sales tend to fall in the next issue.

Also, it depends of other editors to allow guest stars to appear, so Outsiders won't control its guess stars.

Team books aren't necessarilly easier to sale. Even if you combine all fans (and ignoring that there will be overlap between fans), as these are minor characters, the sales not necessarily will be high. That's why they need Batman.

[QUOTE=paulojrmam;4318594]Besides, team books aren't easier to sell? I mean, an Outsiders book would attract fans of each of its members.[/QUOTE]The big problem is that the members of the Outsiders don't have that many fans, and most of these characters don't have that many appearances outside of team books to generate a fanbase seperate from the team.

And team books don't necessarily sell better, Batman's solo has for example higher sales the Justice League. And the sales of Titans are usually also only a bit higher than the sales of Nightwing.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4318903]The big problem is that the members of the Outsiders don't have that many fans, and most of these characters don't have that many appearances outside of team books to generate a fanbase seperate from the team.

And team books don't necessarily sell better, Batman's solo has for example higher sales the Justice League. And the sales of Titans are usually also only a bit higher than the sales of Nightwing.[/QUOTE]

I know people joked about it before, but when you put it like that, it does sound like this iteration of Titans is just "Nightwing plus some people" and that reminds me of that variant cover of Titans where Nightwing take up 90% of it front and center while the other members are posing in the gap between his legs and hands.

[QUOTE=Restingvoice;4319091]I know people joked about it before, but when you put it like that, it does sound like this iteration of Titans is just "Nightwing plus some people" [/QUOTE]Thats not sofar from the truth imo, and not only for this incarnation of the team.

Appart from Wally non of the other members are nearly as popular as him. And Wally is as meber just not as iconic. He was not that much around during Marv Wolfman's New Teen Titans run, and was not on the team in any of the TV shows.

And thats similar with most of DCS other long running team books. Teen Titans had Tim and now Damian as central character, Suicide Squad is centred around Harley Quinn, the outlaws arround Jason.
Only big exception is the Justice League.

[QUOTE=Aahz;4319111]Thats not sofar from the truce imo, and not only for this incarnation of the team.

Appart from Wally non of the other members are nearly as popular as him. And Wally is as meber just not as iconic. He was not that much around during Marv Wolfman's New Teen Titans run, and was not on the team in any of the TV shows.[/QUOTE]

True... he was in the League and his own book, which probably has a different audience, and which they refuse to put him in now.

[QUOTE=John Venus;4318396][COLOR="#B22222"]Because there aren't enough jokes about him being Green Batman. ::eyeroll:: [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

There is that but it's never bothered me.

Green Arrow is a big enough name that The Outsiders could work if it was his team book and not Batman's.

Personally, I'd like Bats outta the League and make the Outsiders his only team with fellow core members:
Batman
Green Arrow
Black Canary
Black Lightning

You could mix in other charcaters but I think with a core of those 4 the book would succeed as well as the JL.

[QUOTE=DevilBat66;4324947]Green Arrow is a big enough name that The Outsiders could work if it was his team book and not Batman's.[/QUOTE]Green Arrow is sales wise at the low end of DCs bigger characters, he could probably carry an "Green Arrow and the Outsiders" book, if it is also his main book at the same time, but that he could support his own solo and an Outsiders Books seems less likely.

[QUOTE=Godlike13;4313246]Well that's not necessarily true. Not that I'm advocating for it but the Outsiders with Nightwing was the longest lasting run.[/QUOTE]

That volume was the longest but nightwing was not leading the team for that entire run. Eventually sales dipped and they needed to go back to Bruce and incorporate more classic outsiders members