[QUOTE=comicstar100;4529638]So did Apocalypse actually lose?[/QUOTE]
If both him and his adversary being pulled into a singularly is loosing. So no, not really.
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[QUOTE=comicstar100;4529638]So did Apocalypse actually lose?[/QUOTE]
If both him and his adversary being pulled into a singularly is loosing. So no, not really.
[QUOTE=comicstar100;4529638]So did Apocalypse actually lose?[/QUOTE]
I like to think Hickman left it up to us to decide since both Nimrod and Apocalypse got in some big shots. In my head Apocalypse had the upper hand until Logan hit the reset button we call Moira.
[QUOTE=Wolverine12;4529677]I like to think Hickman left it up to us to decide since both Nimrod and Apocalypse got in some big shots. In my head Apocalypse had the upper hand until Logan hit the reset button we call Moira.[/QUOTE]
Without spoiling anything, another thing that was going on at the same time makes the idea of "Winner..."/"Loser..." a non-issue.
[QUOTE=numberthirty;4529684]Without spoiling anything, another thing that was going on at the same time makes the idea of "Winner..."/"Loser..." a non-issue.[/QUOTE]
Very true, again, reset button.
I don't think anyone really written Apocalypse (including Nur and others bearing the Apocalypse force) well since Remender and the AoA writer from around the same time (and hell it was a while before them that the character was written with any decency).
The character has had access to and has studied and modified Celestial technology for at least 2,000 years and has had access to and has studied and modified 30th Century Kang/Rama-Tut/etc. technology for over 5,000 years, so why would 22nd century tech like Nimrods and Sentinels be a threat to him or something he couldn't technologically overcome (nevermind why would he even join up with the X-Men, don't bring up X-Cutioner's Song because Stryfe was his problem)?
He created The Harbinger way back in the Joe Casey/James Robinson Cable era and that thing had instantaneous adaptation powers and fought Cable, Blaquesmith, and a pretty damn strong Avengers team (Thor, Wonder Man, Iron Man, Vision, Captain America), and toyed with them. What's Nimrod if not a non-instantaneous adapting robot that has already been defeated numerous times including when Bastion merged with yet another Nimrod and then further upgraded with the transmode virus.
I know the character of Apocalypse isn't exactly consistently written, but I hate it when characters are just used to pump up another character without taking into account their continuity.
[QUOTE=Chainsaw Vigilante;4529690]I don't think anyone really written Apocalypse (including Nur and others bearing the Apocalypse force) well since Remender and the AoA writer from around the same time (and hell it was a while before them that the character was written with any decency).
[B]The character has had access to and has studied and modified Celestial technology for at least 2,000 years and has had access to and has studied and modified 30th Century Kang/Rama-Tut/etc. technology for over 5,000 years, [/B]so why would 22nd century tech like Nimrods and Sentinels be a threat to him or something he couldn't technologically overcome (nevermind why would he even join up with the X-Men, don't bring up X-Cutioner's Song because Stryfe was his problem)?
He created The Harbinger way back in the Joe Casey/James Robinson Cable era and that thing had instantaneous adaptation powers and fought Cable, Blaquesmith, and a pretty damn strong Avengers team (Thor, Wonder Man, Iron Man, Vision, Captain America), and toyed with them. What's Nimrod if not a non-instantaneous adapting robot that has already been defeated numerous times including when Bastion merged with yet another Nimrod and then further upgraded with the transmode virus.
I know the character of Apocalypse isn't exactly consistently written, but I hate it when characters are just used to pump up another character without taking into account their continuity.[/QUOTE]
I'm ok with writers ignoring trite like this as long as it's done in a well written way. I hate when past "feats" get in the way of a good storytelling, besides Apocalypse is still every bit a powerhouse in Life 9 it just so happened that the AI were better. Considering the heavy sci-fi in this event that doesn't surprise me Artificial Intelligence tend to be REALLY OP in these stories.
Hello to everyone in this forum.
I’m not new here, but it’s been a long time since I last posted something here. I’m an X-Men fan since forever, but it’s been ages since I was this interested in the X-Men titles. I think Remender’s Uncanny X-Force was the last x-book I really enjoyed. But Hickman’s X-Men brought me back to this forums. Love reading about all this theories and speculation. So, here’s some of my ideas:
About the different timelines (or lifes)…
I don’t think that Hickman would show us a possible future that has no connection to the current life (10). Showing a possible future in Marvel comics doesn’t make much sense if there is no time travel involved (cause what we see would only be a divergent timeline). And Hickman stated there is no time travel in this story.
We now know that X^2 is life 9. And I think Hickman want us to believe both X^2 & X^3 are the same lifetime, since they both have Cylobel on them. But I think that X^3 is another Moira life (most surely life 6, not listed in the infographic), and what we are seeing in X^3 is one of the possible outcomes for mutantkind and information Moira would use for her big plan in life 10. If not, what’s the point of even showing us that future?
Some speculation about this life 6:
- Life 6 would focus on Moira trying to integrate mutants with machines. That’s why they seek Ascension, but clearly that doesn’t work. That would also explain why in life 7 she is so determined to kill all possible AI creation.
- Mister Sinister is involved, maybe Moira try associating with him this time. That would explain the existence of Chimeras (Rasputin & Cardinal) and Hounds (Cylobel).
- I also think the Hellfire Club would be involved. That would explain Emma & Shaw on some covers.
- How Moira manage to live for that long is a mistery. Maybe she is transformed into a Hound (Cylobel) or a Machine.
So we know life 9 is X^2; and is pretty safe to affirm that X^0 is life 10 (or X) since Moira has all the memories and information from life 9 when she met Charles at the carnival.
Now the question is… is Earth-161 life 10/X^0??
We are all assuming it is, but at the same time there are some discrepancies with the current events and there are characters who shouldn’t be alive. Also: Creeppy Xavier, pod X-Men, the Cuckoos are alive, Karima is a sentinel and has not red skin as in X^2, Sabretooth is a good guy, Xorn is in his Ultimate uniform, etc
Could it be possible that life 10/X^0 is another possible timeline, and life 11 (Moira possible last life) is Earth-161?
About the new characters…..
I think it’s not the last we have seen of them. Moira mentioned Rasputin to be a girl with one foot in two worlds. And we don’t really know for sure what happens when Xorn’s singularity is activated.
I like these new characters, but as much as I enjoy them I also think it would be hard to make them work on a book.
Rasputin is waaay too overpowered: she has intangibility, telekinesis, metal skin, force field and healing factor (metal skin, healing factor and forcefield seems redundant). And to make her even more powerful, she is a magician (as stated by Moira) and possess a Soulsword.
Cardinal, on the other hand… it would be hard to make him work on a team. He is basically design to be a pacifist, so unless he has hundred of terminal Apocalypse’s seeds on that pouch of him, he wouldn’t be much help on a fight.
I’m also a little confused on the chimera’s powers. I thought Rasputin powers were supposed to be more offensive and Cardinal’s more defensive. Healing factor and force field aren’t very offensive powers.
Sorry for my English, it’s not my mother language
[QUOTE=xSonOfTheAtomx;4529898]Hello to everyone in this forum.
We now know that X^2 is life 9. And I think Hickman want us to believe both X^2 & X^3 are the same lifetime, since they both have Cylobel on them. But I think that X^3 is another Moira life (most surely life 6, not listed in the infographic), and what we are seeing in X^3 is one of the possible outcomes for mutantkind and information Moira would use for her big plan in life 10. If not, what’s the point of even showing us that future?
Some speculation about this life 6:
- Life 6 would focus on Moira trying to integrate mutants with machines. That’s why they seek Ascension, but clearly that doesn’t work. That would also explain why in life 7 she is so determined to kill all possible AI creation.
the question is… is Earth-161 life 10/X^0??
Could it be possible that life 10/X^0 is another possible timeline, and life 11 (Moira possible last life) is Earth-161?
About the new characters…..
I think it’s not the last we have seen of them. Moira mentioned Rasputin to be a girl with one foot in two worlds. And we don’t really know for sure what happens when Xorn’s singularity is activated. [/QUOTE]
I agree with your theory that X^3 may be Life 6 in which Moira makes a very long play and seeks to integrate mutants with machines however the Ascension fails and she returns to Life 7 determined to kill all the Trasks.
I think Life 10 ends with Moira finally realising she's making the entire universe reset after 10, 100 or 1000 years and this has to stop with her dying at age 13 in Life 11, which then becomes the 616 (1963) timeline that we know - except she doesn't die but loses her mutant power together with all memory of her past lives.
(Alt-theory: Note that the latest diagram shows the very info which Moira died in Life 9 to transmit to herself in Life 10 --that Nimrod came online in Year 50-- but this will only come to pass if she does nothing to change events. If this is so, then Life 10 (HOX) could be our 616 timeline and Moira submits to making the same mistakes (such as falling into the abusive arms of Joseph MacTaggart etc) because, if she did otherwise, then Nimrod may not come online in Year 50. The only bait-and-switch she was forced to do was to use a Sh'iar golem to fake her death in our 616 history.)
I also suspect Rasputin and Xorn got sent to our 616 timeline through the singularity, and your English is 100% comprehensible, great job on all counts!
Does anyone know where I can find the most updated version of the Krakoa translation key?
[QUOTE=powerpax;4528287]I can buy her turning heel given all she's now been through. I also don't see her as a purely heroic character in this new equation as is. I wouldn't want her reduced to just a black hat though, and I don't think she will be. Whatever happens I think Moira will have her reasons.[/QUOTE]
After what Hickman said about the ‘92’ X-Men and ‘91’ X-Villains, I think Moira may be the antagonist but not necessarily the villain at the end of the event. Maybe what she does want is what mutants need but the X-Men draw a line.
[QUOTE=Graphicisnovel;4528522]Well get ready because that's where the story has been headed... I don't see why it's a bad thing. it's 2019 no one is all good or all bad.
But she has said some pretty shifty sh!t, we're told she broke/will break up Erik and CHarles....and with every life she aligns with worsse and worse evils....and kills more..
The moral of the story so far has been knowledge corrupts (garden of eden), and it's in every issue, so the character who knows it all will be corrupted.[/QUOTE]
I guess not horrible as in a bad story decision, but personally bad. Like, she did all the hard work and we know the X-Men are gonna end up living off the fruits of her labor. But what she’s doing doesn’t fall into heroics/villainy, she’s trying to rescue her race from oppression and eventual destruction. In the present, we know they’ve already had that split and are now all unified in Krakoa (or at least on better terms afawk).
[QUOTE=comicstar100;4529638]So did Apocalypse actually lose?[/QUOTE]
Probably, maybe that was the point, get the info to Moira at all costs and then reset her for the 10 life.
[QUOTE=xSonOfTheAtomx;4529898]Hello to everyone in this forum.
I’m not new here, but it’s been a long time since I last posted something here. I’m an X-Men fan since forever, but it’s been ages since I was this interested in the X-Men titles. I think Remender’s Uncanny X-Force was the last x-book I really enjoyed. But Hickman’s X-Men brought me back to this forums. Love reading about all this theories and speculation. So, here’s some of my ideas:
About the different timelines (or lifes)…
I don’t think that Hickman would show us a possible future that has no connection to the current life (10). Showing a possible future in Marvel comics doesn’t make much sense if there is no time travel involved (cause what we see would only be a divergent timeline). And Hickman stated there is no time travel in this story.
We now know that X^2 is life 9. And I think Hickman want us to believe both X^2 & X^3 are the same lifetime, since they both have Cylobel on them. But I think that X^3 is another Moira life (most surely life 6, not listed in the infographic), and what we are seeing in X^3 is one of the possible outcomes for mutantkind and information Moira would use for her big plan in life 10. If not, what’s the point of even showing us that future?
Some speculation about this life 6:
- Life 6 would focus on Moira trying to integrate mutants with machines. That’s why they seek Ascension, but clearly that doesn’t work. That would also explain why in life 7 she is so determined to kill all possible AI creation.
- Mister Sinister is involved, maybe Moira try associating with him this time. That would explain the existence of Chimeras (Rasputin & Cardinal) and Hounds (Cylobel).
- I also think the Hellfire Club would be involved. That would explain Emma & Shaw on some covers.
- How Moira manage to live for that long is a mistery. Maybe she is transformed into a Hound (Cylobel) or a Machine.
So we know life 9 is X^2; and is pretty safe to affirm that X^0 is life 10 (or X) since Moira has all the memories and information from life 9 when she met Charles at the carnival.
Now the question is… is Earth-161 life 10/X^0??
We are all assuming it is, but at the same time there are some discrepancies with the current events and there are characters who shouldn’t be alive. Also: Creeppy Xavier, pod X-Men, the Cuckoos are alive, Karima is a sentinel and has not red skin as in X^2, Sabretooth is a good guy, Xorn is in his Ultimate uniform, etc
Could it be possible that life 10/X^0 is another possible timeline, and life 11 (Moira possible last life) is Earth-161?
About the new characters…..
I think it’s not the last we have seen of them. Moira mentioned Rasputin to be a girl with one foot in two worlds. And we don’t really know for sure what happens when Xorn’s singularity is activated.
I like these new characters, but as much as I enjoy them I also think it would be hard to make them work on a book.
Rasputin is waaay too overpowered: she has intangibility, telekinesis, metal skin, force field and healing factor (metal skin, healing factor and forcefield seems redundant). And to make her even more powerful, she is a magician (as stated by Moira) and possess a Soulsword.
Cardinal, on the other hand… it would be hard to make him work on a team. He is basically design to be a pacifist, so unless he has hundred of terminal Apocalypse’s seeds on that pouch of him, he wouldn’t be much help on a fight.
I’m also a little confused on the chimera’s powers. I thought Rasputin powers were supposed to be more offensive and Cardinal’s more defensive. Healing factor and force field aren’t very offensive powers.
Sorry for my English, it’s not my mother language[/QUOTE]
Hello and welcome to the discussion! I’m very much in the same position as you, in that these Hickman books have brought me back to X-Men and these forums after several years of drifting away.
Personally I’m skeptical that X^3 could be life 6, because the next several plans after that would seem to be thinking way too small if she’s already reached the point of trying to ascend from mortal culture entirely. I strongly suspect that whatever life 6 is, it simply won’t be some grand plan that would have fit with that montage in HOX #2, but a mostly botched run that nevertheless provides some crucial piece of the plan for life 10. Of course I also strongly suspect that that involves Proteus, but I won’t bore everyone with the details of that again!
I also wrote way too much already about why I don’t think “616” is life 11, on page 24 of this thread..
I’m not sure Cardinal would need or want a bag full of terminal Apocalypse seeds because I thought the implication there was that a ‘terminal’ seed would kill him, and he only took that one because it was a suicide mission anyway.
As for all of the unexplained discrepancies in the present day of House of X... I think it’s probably still pretty similar to what most people were assuming after the first issue: that there was a bit of a time jump between the conclusion of Rosenberg’s Uncanny run and this new story, and Hickman was free to ignore anything he wanted, with the assumption that anything *could* be explained by a hypothetical unseen story between issues, though whether they actually will explain every resurrection or allegiance shift probably varies on a case by case basis. But I don’t think it’s timeline shenanigans... I think we all got fixated on that when Moira X was introduced, but I think that will fade as it goes and it will probably become clear that this story is more linear and grounded in one reality than HOX #2 had us thinking.
But I keep thinking how genius it was to put those creepy pod births on the very first page of the series. It’s like Hickman knew exactly how short our attention spans are. Ever since HOX #2 like 99% of speculation I see focuses on this or that timeline, while I hardly ever see anyone mention the creepy pods, and that’s just such a crazy thing to be on the first page and not mention at least once every day in these discussions. lollll
I can see X^3 bringing Moira up so high in attempts to combine mutants with their worst enemy only to fall back down to becoming an assassin. She loses her humanity in the Ascension and probably any connection to human morals. She no longer is here to just give mutants a home, but to also eliminate any threat that could come up against mutantkind. I think that’s the reason she has such a radical shift from trying to establish Utopia/Genosha with Xavier to ending the Trask line before they can create Sentinels which leads to Nimrod.
I’m still trying to figure out how that leads to her wearing that Bastion getup.
[QUOTE=TOTALITY;4530065]But I keep thinking how genius it was to put those creepy pod births on the very first page of the series. It’s like Hickman knew exactly how short our attention spans are. Ever since HOX #2 like 99% of speculation I see focuses on this or that timeline, while I hardly ever see anyone mention the creepy pods, and that’s just such a crazy thing to be on the first page and not mention at least once every day in these discussions. lollll[/QUOTE]
I’m maintaining that those pods are how mutants are brought back to life. I think that’s Vulcan and Wolfsbane.
[QUOTE=Maestroneto;4530033]Does anyone know where I can find the most updated version of the Krakoa translation key?[/QUOTE]
@therealcinco_ keeps his up to date and pinned at the top of his twitter feed.
[QUOTE=Tycon;4530079]I can see X^3 bringing Moira up so high in attempts to combine mutants with their worst enemy only to fall back down to becoming an assassin. She loses her humanity in the Ascension and probably any connection to human morals. She no longer is here to just give mutants a home, but to also eliminate any threat that could come up against mutantkind. I think that’s the reason she has such a radical shift from trying to establish Utopia/Genosha with Xavier to ending the Trask line before they can create Sentinels which leads to Nimrod.
I’m still trying to figure out how that leads to her wearing that Bastion getup.
I’m maintaining that those pods are how mutants are brought back to life. I think that’s Vulcan and Wolfsbane.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm, maybe, but that life 7 narration “AI isn’t an invention but a discovery like fire, and all she did was keep a Trask from being the first to burn their hand” (IIRC) doesn’t sound like the revelation of a 1000+ year old who has lived through generations of evolution to a point where the human/machine/mutant divide would probably seem almost meaningless. And I feel like her radical shift in life 7 makes perfect sense coming out of having her utopia destroyed in life 5, with life 6 being something that doesn’t fundamentally alter her perspective (at least not to the degree that attempted ascendance would seem to IMO.) But we’ll find out soon enough!
I think those pods may be used to explain the resurrections if indeed the resurrections are explained at all, but I don’t think that’s *why* that scene was there. Hickman didn’t dedicate the first page of his run to housecleaning from the previous run. I think it’s a scene whose significance to this story and its themes will become clear enough over the course of the miniseries and/or the run as a whole that it will eventually seem like the only appropriate introduction. At this point we can be sure it was purposeful, it just remains to be seen where it fits into the big picture.