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[QUOTE]Does Deadpool have decades of stories in a long-running series and a high-profile TV show or animated series? If so, then maybe it's possible to add new players to the marquee level and make them stick 10+ years. My outside view was that the film really "made" Deadpool a star, which is no guarantee that he'll still be an "it" character 10 or 20 years from now.[/QUOTE]
No what Deadpool has is Consistent usage since 1997. He has had a mini or ongoing or some project with him as a lead or co-lead almost every year.
If you only base your view on comic book sales than your view is VERY narrow. Because comic book are become a NONFACTOR in who gets to be an "it" character.
Because the public does not CARE about worthless long running books because many are now understanding how certain folks got to where they are versus others.
The battle Deadpool faced is NOT the same one Black Panther, Wonder Woman, Static or others face.
[QUOTE]I'd love to see almost any of DC's secondary characters become viable both in and outside comics in a sustainable fashion, whether it's Cyborg, the Green Lanterns, Swamp Thing, and so on. I just don't know that it's realistic.[/QUOTE]
They already ARE-stop letting comic book store owners and entitlement groups tell you OTHERWISE.
Cyborg has been there. As have John Stewart, The Young Justice kids, Wally West, Titian and so on.
Dc for years has made it an either or issue. Excluding Cyborg-when it comes to POC of DC-you are LUCKY to see them in both medias.
Bumblebee was SHOWCASED on Teen Titans GO this summer along wit DC Super Hero Girls. She has toys now and a DSHG book about her (I think). Where is she in comics?
Static only ONCE has appeared in comics and tv at the same time.
John Stewart was on the scrap heap when Justice League started and it was not until season 2 that you saw him in the comic.
Aqualad was MIA when Young Justice started. He is still MIA with the new show on the air.
Luke Fox will be MIA in comics when Batwoman show starts.
The comic book side is a JOKE when it comes to many of these guys. Because there is always a PUSH BACK to them. In many cases it's management and/or fans.
Black Panther made a billion dollars and owns 3 Oscars. The PUSH BACK to Marvel doing ANYTHING with him beyond his own book has been SWIFT and lead by bigots and even comic book store owners. Who QUESTION why was Killmonger, Shuri, Okeye & others under his watch given books. They demand JUSTIFICATION for those books being made.
Meanwhile they were SILENT when we saw DEAD properties like Barbarella, Bettie Page & Elvira get books. Kudos to DC for New Age Heroes, Young Animal and other companies who DARED to be different. By doing books NO ONE asked for. Many of whom did books with POC leads. Like Cellies-a book about a cell phone store and the lead was a black slacker-who had a white girlfriend and had the bosses's daughter INTERESTED in him.
But we are going to throw a fit about 7 Black Panther spinoff books. Books that as trades/digital have outsold DC books including Batman.
[QUOTE]It's just hard to jump into an established market and compete long-term [/QUOTE]
Not for everybody else. The issue is YOU have to make a choice to compete and how you do it.
Titan Comics does Rivers of London (about a black Harry Potter) in mini series format.
Valiant does x number issues and then end the book for a time.
One shots every 4 months don't hurt.
A season format like Image does works too.
Because you HAVE to compete. There is no "I ma not interested." That excuse gets you FIRED.
You need viable books with POC because that HELPS your company more than not doing it.
Naomi is going to HELP Superman books in the long run if she keeps appearing in them.
Miles Morales is HELPING the Spider-Man franchise.
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[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;4453459]And you would assume wrong.
The last time I bought a white led book that did not have a POV as a lead was the final issue or Tim drake robin series in 2009.
Understand something I am not buying dc books because of dc management. It does not matter how much support certain characters get management does not care. They will trash or bury who they don’t like no matter what. See Wally west.
The only exception is if those books are in 25 cent bins.[/QUOTE]
Ergo
Wont support black writers
Wont support black artists
Wont support creator of miles Morales
Wont support creator led imprints
Etc etc
Thank you for proving my point.
So you are asking for books you wont buy. Makes perfect sense.
And 1000s of posts on DC forum while reading nothing they are putting out.
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[B]Vampire savior[/B].... you kinda hit it on the head with "I'm not pro-black" I buy comics based on the writers merit NOT race.
If not for the internet, or their books with the picture on the inside cover... I'd never know neil gaiman was white or christopher priest was black
Lee is a white AND asian so I woulnd't think Jim Lee = Asian anymore than I'd think "Christopher Lee = England".
Its really quite irrelevant to your writing ability, but... in the us historically it DOES matter if you get the chance get the job AT ALL.
So yeah, I'll give one a chance because I know that someone somewhere will say: Black guy writing deathstroke? "WE WUZ MERC'S, pass on that"
and that is real so I know i don't have to be problack to acknowledge that.
The thing is having a black division may or may not work but no... D.C. doesn't owe anyone anything other than the investors, I guess-. I learned that from marvel, with the initiatives they
set out the last few years, and how they dealt with the backlash and how even though it pushed away a LOT of people what can those people do but move on?
I digress.
[B]So for me... its... Its the characters...[/B]
I don't like DC's Black/Minority Characters overall...
I like Jon Stewart, I like Jaime Reyes ( I like Ted Kord TOO, but to me he had his arc, and his death felt poignant and perfect and dc should allow things to stick and change to occur)
... and I like Mr.Terrific visually and conceptually... phantasm balls and all... but the execution of his writing shows me they don't understand him.
I like the black firestorm from the Gods Among us game.
I like Micheal Cray, and I've supported it but to be honest I had every issue of the original Death Blow as well.
[B]I don't like[/B] Vixen, Jakeem thunder, or STEEL and... I intensely dislike Cyborg. More for the PUSH they gave him than anything else... I mean.. THIS guy THATS who you come up with? Smfh.
Come to think of it... I kind of roll my eyes when I see Vixen too nowdays, don't like Black Lightning when its Static that people really wanted blah blah blah. . .
Often I'm not a big fan of race, gender, politics bending at all and legacy characters often are too thin for my liking. (I can't take another Robin. Especially with batman being unaging)
but obviously its not a hard rule for me ala Jaime Reyes.
So I'm going to risk getting the post removed and say something that's truly relevant.
DC: Give me what I WANT and I'll pay you. Comicsgate books... all those crowdfunding jobs that are mediocre in writing, or in art, OR in delivery making 6 figures?
HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS? Its sure as hell not a hundred thousand people buying them its a motivated consumer base OVER paying for a book.
If you gave me:
Jon Stewart: The Darkstar.
Mr.Terrific the "Ominous Latin Phrase" arc.
written by johnathan hickman (and I say that based on his FF, and rather acclaimed avengers run)
I'd over pay. I'd buy 3 copies of each just to support.
If they gave me book that is Firestorm, Beetle, and Stargirl written with [B][I]Gravitas[/I][/B] not as kids but as they were the next superman, batman, wonderwoman... I'd pay tripple.
I don't expect them to do a COLDCAST BOOK, or Mohammed X (or any of the associated characters mentioned in that book) but... teen titans season 3 is pretty diverse without feeling silly but the people that need to see it
(young folk) aren't subscribed to DC streaming service.
But if they did? I'd put my money where my mouth is. Thats new 52 Mr.Terrific? I bought 5 copies of the first issue but that turned to ash in my mouth.
Still at the end of the day. Yes.
DC's bread an butter characters will always be the default big six. Bats,WW,Supes,GL,Flash, Aquaman....
changing that is beyond the scope of one book, one writer, or one editorial staff. . . maybe one lifetime.
John came the closest, the cartoon... everything about him... but Cyborg to avoid the lantern wars.
DC... has some issues in this area, but it can't be everything to everyone always either.
[QUOTE=Iron Chimp]
So you are asking for books you wont buy. Makes perfect sense.
And 1000s of posts on DC forum while reading nothing they are putting out.[/QUOTE]
Your wrote that during my long post about putting your money where your mouth is...
YIKES!
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[QUOTE=skyvolt2000;4455836]Black Panther made a billion dollars and owns 3 Oscars. The PUSH BACK to Marvel doing ANYTHING with him beyond his own book has been SWIFT and lead by bigots and even comic book store owners. Who QUESTION why was Killmonger, Shuri, Okeye & others under his watch given books. They demand JUSTIFICATION for those books being made.[/QUOTE]The thing is that it doesn't help the comic publishing part of Marvel or the comic book shops that when "Black Panther made a billion dollars and owns 3 Oscars", they don't get any of this money, they just get the money from the comics they sell, and currently Back Panther sells only sells 20K copies and all Spin Off books end below the cancellation line after the first few issues.
The #1 issues may have sold 100K+ copies (to the comic book store owners) but there is apparently not enough demand for the books to sustain those sales.
And I'm not really following Marvel comics, but was the push back not at least partly because of the writer and the direction?
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[QUOTE=Aahz;4457090]The thing is that it doesn't help the comic publishing part of Marvel or the comic book shops that when "Black Panther made a billion dollars and owns 3 Oscars", they don't get any of this money, they just get the money from the comics they sell, and currently Back Panther sells only sells 20K copies and all Spin Off books end below the cancellation line after the first few issues.
The #1 issues may have sold 100K+ copies (to the comic book store owners) but there is apparently not enough demand for the books to sustain those sales.
And I'm not really following Marvel comics, but was the push back not at least partly because of the writer and the direction?[/QUOTE]
'Writer and direction' are always the excuse that certain websites and people on the internet hide behind when a female or minority character get a book. The real reason for their criticism is a lot uglier than 'writer and direction'.
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[QUOTE=Aahz;4457090]The thing is that it doesn't help the comic publishing part of Marvel or the comic book shops that when "Black Panther made a billion dollars and owns 3 Oscars", they don't get any of this money, they just get the money from the comics they sell, and currently Back Panther sells only sells 20K copies and all Spin Off books end below the cancellation line after the first few issues.
The #1 issues may have sold 100K+ copies (to the comic book store owners) but there is apparently not enough demand for the books to sustain those sales.
And I'm not really following Marvel comics, but was the push back not at least partly because of the writer and the direction?[/QUOTE]
Actually, it's my understanding that the comic book companies do get money from the films. I'm pretty sure that Marvel does. DC, I'm not as sure about, but I imagine it does.
But, your point is taken. A lot of these people wanting all these black books aren't facing the simple truth that the companies cannot steadily depend on these characters to move units. DC falls back on the white characters and prioritizes them because those characters have tried and true audiences that DC can depend on. This isn't to say DC is exempt from any blame. They could have and [B]should have[/B] done better with a number of their black characters. Actually, whenever a black character gets [I]any[/I] traction, DC screws it up. They squandered John Stewart and Static, and their efforts to push Cyborg have been laughable. But, the situation, as it stands now, is those characters aren't dependable. The only way DC can be confident in them is if they throw huge resources and talent at them, and they just realistically can't do that all the time. That said, they can do better. Since DC is hellbent on selling readers on a universe, they can make a black character central to the universe in some form so that DC's readers actually pay attention to them.
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[QUOTE=Midnight_v;4456312]...
[/QUOTE]
Dont think you should be worrying about having your post removed! That was a very heartfelt post. Personally I'd say DC does owe you.. you want their books, you are willing to keep trying them, and you even buy multiple copies - not owe you so much as def. keep you in the fold by giving you want you want. Personally I think the line up they've had has been strong in terms of writers recently and even if none of the books work for someone personally, it's still a good initiative.
I dont even think there is anything wrong in being pro something - I will always try out books by British/ Irish authors because they grew up in same environment as me and they usually make me laugh with their iconoclastic attitude to books and stories.
Brits had their own book in Hellblazer within DC for 30 years as a launchpad to bigger things in DC or as a place they could mess around. It was never a big seller but always a prestigious book for British writers to work on. Could easily do the same with Mohammed X and black American talent on black Label for instance - I'm sure if they could get 50 issues selling 15k an issue and break a new writer to readers theyd consider that a huge win.
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[QUOTE=Vampire Savior;4457373]Actually, it's my understanding that the comic book companies do get money from the films. I'm pretty sure that Marvel does. DC, I'm not as sure about, but I imagine it does.[/QUOTE]I honestly don't exactly know how both companies are organized, but I'm assuming at least that the comic publishing part is at least supposed to make profit on it's own.
And the comics stores are anyway not profiting from the movies. They need books that sell, other wise they have to shut down, which will again lead to less comics sold (the stores are according to comic cron still the biggest distribution Channel for comics). And the stores have to buy the books from DC/Diamond first, so unsold comics are in the end a loss for them.
And I don't know if it was mentioned here but having a successful TV show or movie rarely effects comics sales that much. Green Arrow had pretty weak sales (and was cancelled), (Teen) Titans is also not a big seller, and Supergirl's sales seem more dependent on Variant cavers than on anything else.
On the side Marvel neither Black Panther nor Captain Marvel are top sellers when it comes to comics, and the only characters from the Netflix shows that sell books are Daredevil and Punisher, but those two were already stable sellers before the show.
On the other had the Fantastic Four Movie was a massive flop, but their current book seems to sell quite good.
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[QUOTE][B]Iron Chimp[/B] = Thanks[/QUOTE] The mods don't like talk of comicsgate books is all, my thoughts is
not why, but HOW something is occurring. Its people paying $50 to 100 dollars for principle not books most of the time.
People like some of the ones saying "DC NEEDS TO DO THIS!" but haven't supported Dc for 10 years or whatever because of hard feelings
well if you don't show them when they try, the incentive isn't there to try.
[QUOTE]'Writer and direction' are always the excuse that certain websites and people on the internet hide behind when a female or minority character get a book. The real reason for their criticism is a lot uglier than 'writer and direction'.[/QUOTE]
So. What.
The world is against you. We exist on a planet with bears, sharks, plants that sting you and make you wanna off yourself, and flesh-eating bacteria.. Hell car crashes, high-blood pressure, and cancer.
Humans push on.
Some people aren't going to buy a book because racism, but they weren't going to buy the book no matter what you did if that happens to be the case.
Sometimes... they just thing the change is legitimately stupid or over reaching like the james bond thing, but people get the freedom to choose, thank god, even
without the best motivations....
Meanwhile, for the dare I say far more VAST numbers of us interested in actually buying books?
Its writing and direction that matters. So we should NEVER stop using that term because fringe elements are out there "hide behind it" oh well...
I'm gonna buy what I want, if its good... like in my sig
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Can we just put Black Vulcan into Rebirth as a separate character instead of having him be second banana as he's a Black Lightning ripoff and I never liked Lightning anyway
"GREAT LIGHTNING!"
