As a Wonder Woman Fan, Does it Bother You if Diana Kills?

[QUOTE=Pinsir;5626938]I'm of the opinion that she shouldn't, though it is not a make or break thing for me. I don't like it when she kills sentient "monsters" either (like Medusa from the first Rucka run).[/QUOTE]This is one of those things that DC gets super-fickle on. Aliens often just get whacked by characters that otherwise speechify about never committing murder... It's like: what????

[QUOTE=marhawkman;5627360]This is one of those things that DC gets super-fickle on. Aliens often just get whacked by characters that otherwise speechify about never committing murder... It's like: what????[/QUOTE]

Yeah, when I first began to read GL, I was actually kind of shocked Hal killed aliens.

[QUOTE=Pinsir;5627668]Yeah, when I first began to read GL, I was actually kind of shocked Hal killed aliens.[/QUOTE]It REALLY makes it hard to take the "heroes don't kill" mantra seriously when you realize DC doesn't consistently apply it. Green Lantern is just an easy example too. It actually affects all of the comics to some degree. Which makes that stuff just... why?

Do any Wonder Woman fans feel like she should never kill under any circumstances? Out of each member of the Trinity she is the one who is most associated with pacifism. It would make the most sense in my eyes if Wonder Woman was portrayed as fantatically against killing as Batman.

[QUOTE=Timothy Hunter;5628535]Do any Wonder Woman fans feel like she should never kill under any circumstances? [B]Out of each member of the Trinity she is the one who is most associated with pacifism.[/B] It would make the most sense in my eyes if Wonder Woman was portrayed as fantatically against killing as Batman.[/QUOTE]

I would say that's more Superman tbh.

It [I]should[/I] be Batman. But some creators/fans would act like he's less manly or emasculated or not 'badasszz' if they made that aspect more explicit.

[QUOTE=Timothy Hunter;5628535]Do any Wonder Woman fans feel like she should never kill under any circumstances? Out of each member of the Trinity she is the one who is most associated with pacifism. It would make the most sense in my eyes if Wonder Woman was portrayed as fantatically against killing as Batman.[/QUOTE]

Batman fans are super attached to the no-kill rule, like I once met somebody here who claimed that since the Golden Age stories where Batman murdered people were rewritten, the original intent of the authors to have a character that kills...no longer mattered? It was a weird argument. Superman fans are just as hardline.

I remember hearing a story that the creators basically pulled straws as to who would kill Maxwell Lord and WW got the short end, but I can't imagine that to be true, the other 2 fanbases would have gone insane. Also, if the powers at be were fine with Batman killing, he would have done so explicitly by now. At this point the 'no-kill' rule is baked into Batman's DNA (except for the live action movies of course :p)

[QUOTE=Pinsir;5630061]Also, if the powers at be were fine with Batman killing, he would have done so explicitly by now. At this point the 'no-kill' rule is baked into Batman's DNA (except for the live action movies of course :p)[/QUOTE]Or if you aren't Human. 'cause Batman is happy to kill non-humans a lot of the time.

[QUOTE=Pinsir;5630061]Batman fans are super attached to the no-kill rule, like I once met somebody here who claimed that since the Golden Age stories where Batman murdered people were rewritten, the original intent of the authors to have a character that kills...no longer mattered? It was a weird argument. Superman fans are just as hardline.

I remember hearing a story that the creators basically pulled straws as to who would kill Maxwell Lord and WW got the short end, but I can't imagine that to be true, the other 2 fanbases would have gone insane. Also, if the powers at be were fine with Batman killing, he would have done so explicitly by now. At this point the 'no-kill' rule is baked into Batman's DNA (except for the live action movies of course :p)[/QUOTE]

DC, especially in the period this story was written, has done plenty of things they knew would piss off a character's fans.

I'm not saying the story of how Diana ended up being the to kill Max was true but it wouldn't surprise me if it were. It certainly wouldn't have been the first time Superman or Batman had killed.

I'm really just not a fan of this whole idea that killing makes you morally compromised as character. I remember someone on here saying that its difficult to have a nuanced take on killing within the big 2 comic universes.

Does it bother me if Diana kills someone? Yes, it does, but that's because it should bother you if anyone kills.

But when it comes to Diana as a character, what bothers me most is if she would be defined by killing or by not having a no-kill rule. She is not, and should never be, DC's executioner.

[QUOTE=kjn;5653259]

But when it comes to Diana as a character, what bothers me most is if she would be defined by killing or by not having a no-kill rule. She is not, and should never be, DC's executioner.[/QUOTE]

Ironically, this problem only manifests when the writer is specifically going out of their way to villify Diana for killing. In other words, Diana being defined as an executioner is a result of writers trying to fix a problem they created.

I am not sure I have a hard rule against Diana ever killing, but I definitely have an investment in the idea that Diana's beliefs in transformation and compassion mean that she should be accomplished in (and dedicated to) finding alternatives.

It does make me wonder where, in the Modern Era of comics, Diana is supposed to have learned this transformative and compassionate philosophy from. There's often a sort of handwave explanation of "she is the pinnacle / representative of Amazon ideals and beliefs", but we're actually rarely shown an Amazon culture that is intentionally practicing the techniques of peacemaking and transformation in the Modern era.

Prior to being on the island of Themyscira what we're usually shown of Amazon culture is very little - usually Amazons in armour, with weapons, who are warriors. There's sometimes an explicit mention that they were created to change the world or promote peace, but I struggle to recall when they're ever depicted actually doing it, or why they're then kitted out for war as warriors in that mission.

Following their conflict with and enslavement by Herakles, and subsequent departure to Themyscira, it seems like the focus on them being dedicated to peace really comes into its own, but again we don't actually see how that is practiced other than as withdrawal and isolation from the world (which reads more as either a protective response to what they went through, or a punishment depending on who writes it). Mileage tends to vary depending on the writer, but most default to showing the Amazons as having a default martial response to any conflict that they become involved in. We don't often see any Amazon other than Diana respond to an enemy or an attack by trying to subdue, talk down, and/or ultimately seek to help an opponent.


Are we then to understand that Diana's philosophy and approach is in contrast to her sisters rather than one she learned from them? And if she got it from them, how do the Amazons come by their ideas about what it takes to make peace? Why do we never see them practicing it? Why are forgiveness and compassion so important as principles to them? How do they transform someone away from doing harm and where did they learn to practice that in centuries alone? Was it mediating conflicts among one another?

Rarely since the Golden Age are we shown specific cultural practices or beliefs that would indicate where Diana's own philosophy on peace, transformation and compassion would even come from. I love that she stands for those things, and it *seems* like she does so because she was taught to by her many sisters, but I'd love to know more about where it all actually comes from and what it means in practice for them as a whole culture.

Now that's an interesting topic. I'm not a big fan of how much Wonder Woman space is dedicated to Greek Mythology, but one of the many strengths of the Marston era in particular (but I believe this also applies to Kanigher) is how Diana's view of morality was through War vs Love, Mars vs Venus. That was a clear and strong philosophy with a lot of narrative value.

Lethal force doesn't have to be Diana's only option or her first one. But there isn't anything wrong with her having it.