[QUOTE=Raijin;4706905][B]It’s very telling[/B] that some folks on here have a problem with people suggesting that the Satellite era should be more inclusive. Why does that bother you guys so much? Comic continuity in superhero universes always had hidden history. Play around with that.[/QUOTE]
Of what is it telling? Exactly.
[QUOTE=Kaijudo;4706843]I would say that, as a writer, you should work with the characters you want to work with and not feel dictated to by meeting certain numbers of representation. [/QUOTE]
Sounds like the Satellite League to me.
The cast of each story was chosen from the pool of available members based on the plot.
[IMG]https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EKQ4JMlUUAAlTCn?format=jpg&name=large[/IMG]
[QUOTE=Raijin;4706905]It’s very telling that some folks on here have a problem with people suggesting that the Satellite era should be more inclusive. Why does that bother you guys so much? Comic continuity in superhero universes always had hidden history. Play around with that.[/QUOTE]
The problems aren't about being inclusive. It's about loving certain characters and wanting to see them and not others. I don't care if you're pushing for Vixen or Animal Man... I want to see classic Hawkman and Atom friendship. Barry, Hal, Ollie, and Ralph all together again?? Yes PLEASE!
ESPECIALLY with decompressed storytelling. In the old days if the lineup wasn't the greatest... next issue or the issue after you got another shot. Now? 5-6 issues and half a year following a story you don't like.
That's why I say this stuff is just outdated and built upon outdated ideals. I mean, all white heroes!? [I]That many heroes, and they're all white[/I]? Even if they were to come from only America, for whatever reason, that's still pretty unrealistic. It's not even just about being inclusive (although that is important), it isn't even particularly believable, to the point where it actually looks like whoever made that stuff was consciously gating off everyone else (and they probably were).
I'm kind of for letting DC be DC. I'm not one of the people who is crying for them to change this and that, or do this or that (I'd sooner just create newer stuff that doesn't suffer from the same problems). But at the same time, I realize their entire universe is wildly outdated, and there isn't much that can be done about that, because DC's fans more or less like it that way.
1) Any revival of the Satellite JLA would be modeled on the [I]Justice League Unlimited[/I] show, not on the Bronze Age concept (which would have unquestionably developed into a more diverse assemblage had it existed longer).
2) People who want the comics version are not necessarily racist (as has been implied here). Reactionary or overly nostalgic maybe, but not white power advocates. Their viewpoint is no different than those who want everything reverted back to the DCU days.
[QUOTE] I mean, all white heroes!? That many heroes, and they're all white? Even if they were to come from only America, for whatever reason, that's still pretty unrealistic.[/QUOTE]
I don't know where you are but there are a lot of places in the u.s. that if you go to your local fire dept, you'll see all white faces.
[url]https://hbr.org/2018/12/making-u-s-fire-departments-more-diverse-and-inclusive[/url]
Its not unrealistic at all. I'm not even in the "lets demand" (or however you want to put it) diversity crowd, I don't pray at that altar. Yet there's an article from 2018 explaining how "Caucasian" fire Fighters really really are for example.
Not that I have a problem with that reality. I can see a lot of people saying "Fight fires? Nah, I'm good". So there exist a LOT of insular communities unless acted upon by outside forces, its definitely realistic if nothing else. YMMV
That being the case the idea that the "Satellite Era" didn't get returned to because its "Too white" sounds stupid or mildly racist in and of itself, because there is nothing inherently racial about having the
heroes based out of the Satellite. Someone posted a picture of JLU cartoon and thats I'm certain what people would like more often than not.
[QUOTE]The problems aren't about being inclusive. It's about loving certain characters and wanting to see them and not others. I don't care if you're pushing for Vixen or Animal Man... I want to see classic Hawkman and Atom friendship. Barry, Hal, Ollie, and Ralph all together again?? Yes PLEASE!
ESPECIALLY with decompressed storytelling. In the old days if the lineup wasn't the greatest... next issue or the issue after you got another shot. Now? 5-6 issues and half a year following a story you don't like.[/QUOTE]
Yeah I kinda figured a big part of the era is more about having different characters spotlighted and going on adventures together.
I don't know how a scenario where the bulk of heroes are on ONE TEAM would affect the overall narrative of D.C. comics but maybe theres a "Worlds Finest" book out there just waiting and the dream of the Satellite Era is just a place holder for wanting to see more super-hero team ups, more frequently. Although, honestly I wonder what the solo books are doing if not that.
[QUOTE]1) Any revival of the Satellite JLA would be modeled on the Justice League Unlimited show, not on the Bronze Age concept (which would have unquestionably developed into a more diverse assemblage had it existed longer).
2) People who want the comics version are not necessarily racist (as has been implied here). Reactionary or overly nostalgic maybe, but not white power advocates. Their viewpoint is no different than those who want everything reverted back to the DCU days.[/QUOTE]
You slipped this post in on me. 100% agree.
[QUOTE=Midnight_v;4711776]I don't know where you are but there are a lot of places in the u.s. that if you go to your local fire dept, you'll see all white faces.
[url]https://hbr.org/2018/12/making-u-s-fire-departments-more-diverse-and-inclusive[/url]
Its not unrealistic at all. I'm not even in the "lets demand" (or however you want to put it) diversity crowd, I don't pray at that altar. Yet there's an article from 2018 explaining how "Caucasian" fire Fighters really really are for example.
Not that I have a problem with that reality. I can see a lot of people saying "Fight fires? Nah, I'm good". So there exist a LOT of insular communities unless acted upon by outside forces, its definitely realistic if nothing else. YMMV[/QUOTE]
I'm sure there are a lot of places in the U.S. where you will see almost nothing but white people, but they tend not to be very large population centers, relatively speaking. There are some exceptions, like Salt Lake City, but they are only exceptions. And for what it is worth, these characters are often based in cities with large population. So when you see nothing but white people choosing to put on tights and join the JLA, it looks pretty weird. White people over, and over and over and over and over and over again. You can only do that so many times before people start noticing. Oh, it [I]can[/I] happen that way, but would it [I]likely[/I] happen that way? I believe no, especially when factoring in that the closest real life person to a superhero I know of with the highest profile is a [I]black man from Seattle[/I]. So, when I look at actual [I]real life[/I], it flies directly in the face of those old comics.
It's like WWE, where, for a super long time, The Rock was the only black WWE champion, and even now, you can probably count the black ones on one hand (I don't keep track of WWE anymore). I would say it is unlikely that would happen if those competitions weren't scripted. Oh, it [I]can[/I] happen that way, but I would say it is [I]very unlikely[/I] when we look at other professional sports that are actually real.
[QUOTE=Vampire Savior;4711817]I'm sure there are a lot of places in the U.S. where you will see almost nothing but white people, but they tend not to be very large population centers, relatively speaking. There are some exceptions, like Salt Lake City, but they are only exceptions. And for what it is worth, these characters are often based in cities with large population. So when you see nothing but white people choosing to put on tights and join the JLA, it looks pretty weird. White people over, and over and over and over and over and over again. You can only do that so many times before people start noticing. Oh, it [I]can[/I] happen that way, but would it [I]likely[/I] happen that way? I believe no, especially when factoring in that the closest real life person to a superhero I know of with the highest profile is a [I]black man from Seattle[/I]. So, when I look at actual [I]real life[/I], it flies directly in the face of those old comics.
It's like WWE, where, for a super long time, The Rock was the only black WWE champion, and even now, you can probably count the black ones on one hand (I don't keep track of WWE anymore). I would say it is unlikely that would happen if those competitions weren't scripted. Oh, it [I]can[/I] happen that way, but I would say it is [I]very unlikely[/I] when we look at other professional sports that are actually real.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE] Oh, it can happen that way, but would it likely happen that way?[/QUOTE]
Yeah. Its likely. Its likely and before affirmative action type laws meant anything there really WAS hegemony like that. Might be a different time now, maybe you weren't alive for it but the "good old" boys system existed in polive and fire depts long into the 2000's and in many places to this day. Someone had to FORCE them to break it up. Colleges really didn't diversify in the way you'd think till My lifetime. So... if there wasn't a real situation existing in that manner then there would have never been laws like that.
Still... that kind of thinking is outside the scope of a make believe world isn't it? Or did the avengers actually have an issue where they were government mandated have a more diverse roster? 3-d man, maybe, Triathalon?
No. Also despite the antics of Phoenix Jones, most average people if in the next breath got he power to Idk, read minds and be bullet proof are not going to go join the justice league.
There's a sliding timescale in comics but the difference between a minority having super powers, and going to join the justice league is the difference between being in shape and joining the Marine Corps reserves.
That being said, and let it be known that whats RELEVANT in this thread isn't: "racial bias as the reason we don't want the satellite era"
Its: "Satellite Era? What people REALLY want is the Justice League Unlimited as one of the Main Titles in the DC comics verse."
That way its all upside. Sometimes its Vixen, and Hawkman, sometimes its the Atom, but BUILDING new stories about a broad ensemble cast of note worthy heroes is a worthwhile and economically desirable thing.
Lastly as long as you made sure the things occurred in continuity it could have the perfect "Shonen Jump" or "Marvel Comics Presents:" format.
Thats what I'd do anyway. Considering for example you get the guy that wants Vixen, AND the guy that wants Hawkman and the Atom to buy the same book.
Hell maybe the like of one might cross OVER to the other.
I don't want to prolong this debate, but I just want to correct something said above. It wasn't the writers who were imposing so many white characters on the readers--it was the people in management (editors, distributors, publishers, business managers). They believed that comics with more diversity wouldn't sell and they feared that their comics would be dropped by distributors, especially in the south. Moreover, navigating around touchy political subjects was something DC tried to avoid. Writers were pushing to introduce more diverse characters--sometimes they won, but often they lost--yet even when they did create characters of representation, the stories were often very bad. You only have to look to the Detroit League to see how awkward those stories could get. What really needed to happen first was employing more diverse people on the creative side and on the management side--only then would you have a body of people capable of producing stories that satisfied the need for diversity.
[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;4712028]I don't want to prolong this debate, but I just want to correct something said above. It wasn't the writers who were imposing so many white characters on the readers--it was the people in management (editors, distributors, publishers, business managers). They believed that comics with more diversity wouldn't sell and they feared that their comics would be dropped by distributors, especially in the south. Moreover, navigating around touchy political subjects was something DC tried to avoid. Writers were pushing to introduce more diverse characters--sometimes they won, but often they lost--yet even when they did create characters of representation, the stories were often very bad. You only have to look to the Detroit League to see how awkward those stories could get. What really needed to happen first was employing more diverse people on the creative side and on the management side--only then would you have a body of people capable of producing stories that satisfied the need for diversity.[/QUOTE]
I agree with all of this, Jim. The fruits of the Civil Rights era were starting to show itself back in the '70s, but much more was yet to come.
[QUOTE=Jim Kelly;4712028]I don't want to prolong this debate, but I just want to correct something said above. It wasn't the writers who were imposing so many white characters on the readers--it was the people in management (editors, distributors, publishers, business managers). They believed that comics with more diversity wouldn't sell and they feared that their comics would be dropped by distributors, especially in the south. Moreover, navigating around touchy political subjects was something DC tried to avoid. Writers were pushing to introduce more diverse characters--sometimes they won, but often they lost--yet even when they did create characters of representation, the stories were often very bad. You only have to look to the Detroit League to see how awkward those stories could get. What really needed to happen first was employing more diverse people on the creative side and on the management side--only then would you have a body of people capable of producing stories that satisfied the need for diversity.[/QUOTE]
If you're talking about me (I don't know, maybe you're not, I haven't read all the posts here), I never specifically accused writers of that. I nebulously said the people making it, because I didn't feel like going into too much detail. The editors were ultimately the ones putting the comics together. The writers were just commissioned to basically do what the editors wanted. I'm well aware of the situation. Though I do hold the writers accountable for writing PoC characters in an often boneheaded fashion and frequently pigeonholing them into race driven plots and settings.
[QUOTE=Vampire Savior;4712313] Though I do hold the writers accountable for writing PoC characters in an often boneheaded fashion and frequently pigeonholing them into race driven plots and settings. [/QUOTE]
A beginner's rule to writing is to 'write what you know,' and so it doesn't surprise me terribly that the almost universally white men writers, surrounded by a bunch of other white men, wrote a bunch of white men for heroic characters, and when they did introduce a woman or person of color, they did so kind of terribly or heavy-handedly. With so many more diverse writers (and artists, and editors and publishers) accumulating over time, it should continue getting better.
I'm all in favor of a Satellite+ or Justice League Unlimited approach and include a large roster of characters. I'd go with the obvious characters as well as many who are past Leaguers:
Superman
Wonder Woman
Batman
Robin
Green Lantern - Hal Jordan
Green Lantern - John Stewart
Green Lantern - Guy Gardner
Aquaman
Mera
Hawkwoman
Martian Manhunter
Flash
Doctor Light
Black Canary
Green Arrow
Elongated Man
Vixen
Black Lightning
Cyborg
Tomorrow Woman
Zatanna
Element Woman
Fire
Ice
Shazam
Shazama (I don't know what else to call Mary Marvel these days.)
Extraño
The Wonder Twins
Longshadow
El Dorado
Conjura
Star Sapphire
Catwoman
Triumph
Isis
Steel
Aztek
If you look at the League in latter episodes of the animated Young Justice series and how that works well, I'm even less concerned about having some similarly-powered characters on the team (e.g. multiple Green Laterns) as they each have their own personalities and interact with members differently. Which is what I'm all about alongside the action and adventure - how do all these characters relate to one another.
I'm a bit more personality and diversity over powers and singularities.
Maybe after 5g there will enough equivalents to create a racially diverse satellite league. We could still have Superman, Batman, Flash,Wonder Woman, etc... but not the old school versions. That might satisfy everyone. I actually like the idea of the satellite headquarters.